FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[Schwami]

Schwami wasn't beat down because of his congrats to Witt. He was called out because of an errant observation. Witt won the game, but they weren't the best team on the field, and I did offer my wish that they represent well.

The team who wins the game in a competition is, by definition, the best team on the field.  Otherwise you need to change the rules of the game.

Play that game 100 times, the outcome probably would be 70-30 in Wabash's favor.

Also, in that case, teams would never lose to underdogs. Chaminade would never beat Virginia. Oberlin would never have beaten Wabash in 2012.

I am only talking about the best team on that field (for that one game on that one day).  You may be right on with your 70-30 prediction but that's pure speculation. Since I haven't watched either team much, I can't argue with that. 

     Which team is better. I'm a Wabash fan, so I think Wabash is still the better team overall.  Witt was better yesterday because they scored more points.   Statistics, as they say are for losers, and while they may be instructive about the relative strengths of the two teams, only the final result really matters.       

Exactly.  Sigma even acknowledged his inability to be objective given he is a Wabash fan.  Well put.

Seems that Schwami is trending on the NCAC fan board.   

Note to self:  it is not considered good form to say the team you root for was "outplayed" by the other team, or to suggest that the other team was "better" in that one game, even when that other team made the critical plays to win the game, and your team did not.  Even when that other team won the second half 7-0, in a game that was essentially tied at the half (regardless how it got there), and even outgained your team in that second half 165 – 117 (I know, meaningless statistics).  Even though there was no drive more impressive than a 14-play, 86-yard drive that produced the final score.

Lest ye find yourself charged with spewing untruth, errant thinking, and fantasy.

Especially when that other team is Witt.

Oh well.   

[The_Bishop]

Not in any way to blame the officiating for the result.... we made more than enough bad mistakes to lose this one without them.

Here is a no call that is pretty much text book holding.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1798535_10203220908145835_294170658217705772_n.jpg?oh=c77d3c47e4292b8f4cb887de782ccc70&oe=54D71E8F&__gda__=1423496247_1f8a1cb2848b744f0583ba4fb14b8574

Good heavens.  Kid unleashed his inner Rowdy Roddy Piper on that play.

[BashDad]

My brother continues to be a better fan than me. An email:

"I think Witt made plays on defense. Really good plays. The 2nd down play that set up the 3rd and short for Zurek (and so the 4th down pass, too), was a sweep to the right where Tyler Holmes was about to get the corner and take it at least twenty yards, but the defensive end somehow sprinted from the other side to make a shoe string tackle--quietly one of the plays of the game for them.

They made plays on offense, too. Stump had too ridiculous catches (one in the end zone, one at 3rd and long) and absent either of them, they probably lose.

Witt won the game with game plan and execution, which is how Wabash lost. Too many penalties, turnovers, and hardly any rhythm on their side of the field. I really admire how Witt takes advantage of match ups in the passing game. They are always tough--nothing tricky or gimmicky."

[ExTartanPlayer]

Not in any way to blame the officiating for the result.... we made more than enough bad mistakes to lose this one without them.

Here is a no call that is pretty much text book holding.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1798535_10203220908145835_294170658217705772_n.jpg?oh=c77d3c47e4292b8f4cb887de782ccc70&oe=54D71E8F&__gda__=1423496247_1f8a1cb2848b744f0583ba4fb14b8574

Good heavens.  Kid unleashed his inner Rowdy Roddy Piper on that play.

Anyone who has watched game film can normally find a dozen or more penalties like this.  The ref's see some and miss some.  I am can still pissed about the 85 World Series when the 1st base ump (Don Denkinger) missed the call in the 8th inning, which eventually cost the Cards the series.  **it happens.  I am convinced that the refs to their best - their best just isn't good enough at times.

I agree.  I don't think most refs are out there trying to screw either team.

I'm never happy about missed calls on bang-bang plays but I can live with them.  Pass interference penalties, holding, or even a spot of the ball; those are plays you see once at full speed (maybe out of the corner of your eye) and have to react.  Even particularly egregious holding calls can be missed because we don't have a ref to watch every guy on the OL at all times. 

Clock mismanagement, rules interpretations, those are the things that grind my gears.  So whenever I see complaints about officials, I always try to figure out what the complaint is about.  If it's about one call here or there, like the above, I'm probably going to side with the official (not that they made the right call, but that it's damned hard to see everything and get every one of those right without instant replay).  If it's complaints about marking off yardage incorrectly, or awarding a first down when they shouldn't have, or letting the clock run when it should have been stopped...those are going to ring more true as legitimate complaints.

[GRIZ_BACKER]

Before we move on--quickly I hope--to the future, it's worth noting that Wabash and Wittenberg play in Wabash's third game next fall, on September 26, in Crawfordsville . So no more late season determinations on who will/might win the NCAC.  Wabash opens with Hampden-Sydney and Allegheny, and then the Old Tigers.  Witt opens with Capital (no more Butler) and OWU, and then the LGs.     I'm not discounting any of the other NCAC teams, but historically it's been these two slamming into each other for the title.
     Quick turn around between the two teams.
     Now back to regular programming.  It's Bell Week!

Unfortunately, the GRIZ have scheduduled Butler again next year.  We will never learn.  LOL

[MasterJedi]

Before we move on--quickly I hope--to the future, it's worth noting that Wabash and Wittenberg play in Wabash's third game next fall, on September 26, in Crawfordsville . So no more late season determinations on who will/might win the NCAC.  Wabash opens with Hampden-Sydney and Allegheny, and then the Old Tigers.  Witt opens with Capital (no more Butler) and OWU, and then the LGs.     I'm not discounting any of the other NCAC teams, but historically it's been these two slamming into each other for the title.
     Quick turn around between the two teams.
     Now back to regular programming.  It's Bell Week!

Unfortunately, the GRIZ have scheduduled Butler again next year.  We will never learn.  LOL

The UWW faithful would love to see Franklin on the schedule next year too, this time with a nice return trip to the Perk! 

[GRIZ_BACKER]

Before we move on--quickly I hope--to the future, it's worth noting that Wabash and Wittenberg play in Wabash's third game next fall, on September 26, in Crawfordsville . So no more late season determinations on who will/might win the NCAC.  Wabash opens with Hampden-Sydney and Allegheny, and then the Old Tigers.  Witt opens with Capital (no more Butler) and OWU, and then the LGs.     I'm not discounting any of the other NCAC teams, but historically it's been these two slamming into each other for the title.
     Quick turn around between the two teams.
     Now back to regular programming.  It's Bell Week!

Unfortunately, the GRIZ have scheduduled Butler again next year.  We will never learn.  LOL

The UWW faithful would love to see Franklin on the schedule next year too, this time with a nice return trip to the Perk! 

Hopefully we stick to playing them Thanksgiving weekend or later.  Franklin has seen their share of the Purple Powers in the last 5 years or so. UWW (4), MOUNT (2) and MHB (1).

[BashBacker#16]

The point I believe BashBro was trying to make or support was in reference to a couple things.  First, several posts have referenced the fact that the Witt O-line was called for ZERO holding penalties.  That is a head scratcher - especially against this Bash "bring the heat" pressure-oriented defense.  Secondly, the comment was made (or the question asked) on how the Witt O front somehow managed to hold (no pun intended) the Bash pressure in check.  That photo shows one way to do that.

Having said that, I understand calls are missed throughout a game.

On to the Bell...

WAF

[USee]

The point I believe BashBro was trying to make or support was in reference to a couple things.  First, several posts have referenced the fact that the Witt O-line was called for ZERO holding penalties.  That is a head scratcher - especially against this Bash "bring the heat" pressure-oriented defense.  Secondly, the comment was made (or the question asked) on how the Witt O front somehow managed to hold (no pun intended) the Bash pressure in check.  That photo shows one way to do that.

Having said that, I understand calls are missed throughout a game.

On to the Bell...

WAF

Wabash had 6 sacks, held Witt to 211 total yards, 3.2 yards per play (which is the LG's season average), and a safety (where Evan Rutter smoked the Witt RG). Lots of hurries and hits on the QB. How exactly did Witt hold the Bash pressure in check?

[BashBacker#16]

Usee,

"In check" wasn't the phrase I should have used.  Witt threw it 29 times, of those, there seemed to be a handful of downfield passes where Jenkins did have time.  This, even when we brought "the house" which typically is not the case.  My point is that you cannot tell me that the Witt O-line wasn't holding throughout the game (note the photo) and NEVER got called one time.  How is that?

On that same topic.  How about this stat that I realized:  in Wabash's 9 games thus far, we've been called for holding 19 times.  How about Wabash opponents?  Well...in those same 9 games, Wabash opponents have been flagged a whopping 3 times!!!  2 were in the season opener against Hampton-Sydney and Oberlin had one late in the game.  That is crazy!  How does one explain that???  Seriously.

[The_Bishop]

Usee,

On that same topic.  How about this stat that I realized:  in Wabash's 9 games thus far, we've been called for holding 19 times.  How about Wabash opponents?  Well...in those same 9 games, Wabash opponents have been flagged a whopping 3 times!!!  2 were in the season opener against Hampton-Sydney and Oberlin had one late in the game.  That is crazy!  How does one explain that???  Seriously.

Wild guess/speculation:  the size of opposing O-lines compared to the Wabash D-line (with the exception of Hampton Sydney) is disproportionate and subliminally refs calling the game don't believe an undersized lineman can hold one much bigger than him (which isn't true of course).  Just hypothesizing.

[Li'l Giant]

On that same topic.  How about this stat that I realized:  in Wabash's 9 games thus far, we've been called for holding 19 times.  How about Wabash opponents?  Well...in those same 9 games, Wabash opponents have been flagged a whopping 3 times!!!  2 were in the season opener against Hampton-Sydney and Oberlin had one late in the game.  That is crazy!  How does one explain that???  Seriously.

Interesting stat.

We had 11 sacks in those 2 games where opponents got holding calls. 5.5 average.

In those other 7 games had Wabash had a total of 32 sacks. Average of 4.57 per game.

Assuming () holding is happening in those other games that's still a lot of sacks to give up. Even if the holding prevents one sack a game.

[HCAlum86]

If Wooster beats OWU and Hiram beats Oberlin, the Terriers can finish in the top 5 in the conference since entering it a little over a decade ago. I just hope that they take Oberlin seriously (unlike Allegheny). We are a program that cannot afford to take any W for granted; thankfully, this has the benefit of also being the last game of the season, so I do not think there will be any "looking to next week" in this game.

[USee]

Usee,

"In check" wasn't the phrase I should have used.  Witt threw it 29 times, of those, there seemed to be a handful of downfield passes where Jenkins did have time.  This, even when we brought "the house" which typically is not the case.  My point is that you cannot tell me that the Witt O-line wasn't holding throughout the game (note the photo) and NEVER got called one time.  How is that?

On that same topic.  How about this stat that I realized:  in Wabash's 9 games thus far, we've been called for holding 19 times.  How about Wabash opponents?  Well...in those same 9 games, Wabash opponents have been flagged a whopping 3 times!!!  2 were in the season opener against Hampton-Sydney and Oberlin had one late in the game.  That is crazy!  How does one explain that???  Seriously.

That makes more sense.

I think the simple explanation for the lack of holding is that Wabash D is too quick. Seriously. Look at the sack for a safety vs Witt. The RG for Witt couldn't have held Rutter if he wanted too. He was by him that fast. And judging from the nation leading sacks per game, I would suspect many an OLineman are holding air vs LG jerseys. Good DLinemen are taught to use their speed and quickness to go past people. I am confident if a Defensive player was complaining to their coach they were "held" on a play during film review that defensive player would be rebuked for getting close enough to be held.

[sigma one]

A.  The Wabash defensive line is not that big.  There is some height, but I'd guess the dline is about average in weight with the dlines in the conference.  B.  Wabash gets pressure by sending linebackers as well as from its defensive front three.  Sacks result because there are too many bodies to block coming from too many angles and directions too quickly.  C.  Opponents have thrown the ball 280+ times in nine games, an average of more than 30X per game.  And that's all the holding calls?
     I don't know whether the refs are just letting calls go because of that subliminal hesitation about superiority, or whatever.  There's even the (remote) possibility that teams aren't holding because Wabash gets through the blockers so quickly, or that teams have settled for throwing mostly short passes because of the fear of pressure.  Or some combination of these.
     I have seen every game, and I would never accuse officials of purposefully ignoring holds, but the number is peculiar.
     Relatedly, almost every year Wabash and Wittenberg lead the NCAC in penalties called against them.  This is another number that bears some analysis.  Because they are at the top of the conference?  Because they are very aggressive and hard-hitting defenses?  Because if they are so proficient they must be at some advantage, so they must be doing something that tests the boundaries of the rules?  Because their offenses are gaining big yards, so they must be holding?  Because they simply are committing more infractions because of their overall style of play?  Because, because, because. . .  Take your pick of these and other theories.
   I will concede that I think Wabash gets too many unsportsmanlike calls and too many personal fouls for my taste--the results of an aggressive approach, to the way they play.  I'd like to see more self-discipline there.  But they play hard to the whistle, and in this area, I do think refs try to protect the opponents who are already being knocked around.  In the main I would not like to see Wabash change its approach, only to see individuals exercise better judgment on occasion.  Admittedly, I may be asking too much in this area because of the very physical approach Wabsh employs.