FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[sigma one]

E17, you clearly don't understand what Division III is all about.

[NewHawk]

E17, you clearly don't understand what Division III is all about.

Football, at any level is about winning.  They wouldn't keep score if it wasn't. Wabash played a great game and has great fans...I think they outnumbered UWW fans.

[Li'l Giant]

Since the rest of us are such a waste of helmets and pads why do the WIAC schools demean themselves to play the rest of us? They can always go the NESCAC route.

[Pat Coleman]

I know Wally talks about data points in his analysis. There are VERY few data points of Wabash beating a strong team.

"Absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."  - Carl Sagan

Sagan is a hack.

And you are typing out of both sides of your keyboard. When it comes to the two and three WIAC teams, you have a "show me" attitude. When pointed out that Wabash has not proven anything, you quote Sagan.

THIS is hackery of the fullest degree. You can't keep moving the goalposts. Winning a playoff game IS proving something. Being in the playoff mix consistently IS proving something. Being consistently ranked AND talked about as a playoff team year over year and being favored to win a playoff game more often than not IS proving something. It IS the sign of a national program. Wabash isn't a playoff filler.  Witt's not a playoff filler. They're not an MIAA or UMAC team.

You all have lost sight that being playoff contenders year over year over year is pretty special in D3. It's NOT de rigueur for almost every team in D3.

You ARE getting to be like Mt. Union. I had hoped not.

Smed
I have to go here and I apologize to all the good folk on this site. ...

Just because you apologize doesn't give you the right to be an ass, emma.

[bleedpurple]

I know Wally talks about data points in his analysis. There are VERY few data points of Wabash beating a strong team.

"Absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."  - Carl Sagan

Sagan is a hack.

And you are typing out of both sides of your keyboard. When it comes to the two and three WIAC teams, you have a "show me" attitude. When pointed out that Wabash has not proven anything, you quote Sagan.

THIS is hackery of the fullest degree. You can't keep moving the goalposts. Winning a playoff game IS proving something. Being in the playoff mix consistently IS proving something. Being consistently ranked AND talked about as a playoff team year over year and being favored to win a playoff game more often than not IS proving something. It IS the sign of a national program. Wabash isn't a playoff filler.  Witt's not a playoff filler. They're not an MIAA or UMAC team.

You all have lost sight that being playoff contenders year over year over year is pretty special in D3. It's NOT de rigueur for almost every team in D3.

You ARE getting to be like Mt. Union. I had hoped not.

Smed
I have to go here and I apologize to all the good folk on this site. ...

Just because you apologize doesn't give you the right to be an ass, emma.

I hope you are referring to the name-calling portion of his post. Because he has every right to express the opinion part of it.

[USee]

I think Emma's post was way off base and out of line. But tact aside, I think Emma's opinion is an extreme viewpoint. WIAC posters don't have a corner on the "we know a good team when we see them" market. And Smeds (with whom I have had my own disagreements) was not at all off base using stats to support his opinion, which is a regular occurrence on the boards across all rooms. You don't have to agree with him but that doesn't make him wrong or "lacking true football knowledge".

You can't realistically come on here and compare UWP and UWO's prorgram based on what you saw today out of Wabash. I know because I actually did a similar thing early this season when I declared Platteville was not a top 25 team after being physically abused by the 2nd place CCIW team. And the fact that UWO took 3 overtimes to beat them means they are pretty equal so, from my perspective (If I was to use Emma's logic) neither of those teams are top 15 teams and arguably not top 25 and no way they are playoff teams if NCC isn't. But I don't think that's a fair assessment.

Individual results are just that. WIAC fans have the benefit of seeing teams go against the #1 team in the nation so you will have a strong opinion. Others have similar, strong opinions. The same Wheaton team that outgained JCU today, held them to 14 pts (when they avg 53) and lost by missing a field goal with a minute left, almost lost to Augie 5 weeks ago and put up only 35 yds of offense in the second half. If you had seen that game you would have bet the house and given the 28.5 pts on the spread that was in the OAC room. The body of work is what's important. All Wabash did today was the same thing every WIAC team did this year, lose to UWW. So what. No way anyone can intelligently place them relative to the other teams that lost to the same team.

LG fans got to measure themselves against the best D3 has to offer today and now they know what needs to be done.

[Pat Coleman]

I hope you are referring to the name-calling portion of his post. Because he has every right to express the opinion part of it.

That is part of what I was referring to but that is not the only line that was out of line and not in keeping with the traditions of this board or of UWW, bp.

[bleedpurple]

I hope you are referring to the name-calling portion of his post. Because he has every right to express the opinion part of it.

That is part of what I was referring to but that is not the only line that was out of line and not in keeping with the traditions of this board or of UWW, bp.

I see your point regarding the second sentence. The rest of what I see is opinion and explanation. I feel like something is being inferred by readers that I am missing completely. I see a strong opinion on the merits/strengths of various teams. I see criticism of the selection process. I see an argument for the "eye test" for football teams as opposed to looking at statistics and data.

What else is there that I'm missing that is "not in keeping with the traditions of this board or of UWW?" I'm pretty familiar with the traditions of UWW and Emma is a part of it. And I've seen a WHOLE LOT of posts that are far more inflammatory (again, setting aside the name calling).  So if you could let me know what you are seeing that I am not seeing, that would be great. I'm fine with PM if you prefer.

[Pat Coleman]

And I see it as "UWW fans are the only ones qualified to determine whether UWO or UWP belong in the playoffs, because we are UWW."

[wally_wabash]

The fact that TLU played MHB tight of Muhl played tight or Wabash won a game is meaningless to the kids that worked their tails off on teams like UWO and were overlooked because of some backwards section process.

The players from other teams that made it (or didn't) don't work hard either? 

UWO wasn't overlooked.  They weren't selected.  There's a very important difference. 

[bleedpurple]

And I see it as "UWW fans are the only ones qualified to determine whether UWO or UWP belong in the playoffs, because we are UWW."

Oh, that. 

In re-reading his post, I can see why you could read that into into it based on the way he phrased this paragraph:

"If you watched the game today Smed you got a chance to see what we UWW folks see on a regular basis. As such- we know what a playoff competitive team looks like. And when we say UWO of UWP belong, we don't say it out of arrogance. We say it because we don't need a stat sheet or a rating system to tell us what a really good team looks like."

However, having had in-person dialogue with Emma on this subject, I'm 99% sure (only Emma could be %100) he was not implying what you (and probably others) are inferring. 

His  main (and I agree) point deals with the value of the eye test in assessing football teams as compared to picking out arbitrary data of a stat sheet or using a mathematical rating system by someone who may have never seen any of the teams play. (Usee does a nice job of making a counter point to this line of thinking, by the way and Wally does a nice job of reminding us that, whether we like the system or not, the system is in place and that means NO team is truly overlooked, many are simply not chosen. Both fair points).  As far as they eye test line of thinking, it matters not what school a "football guy" attended or follows. If they have watched enough football carefully(subjective? obviously), they are in a better position to know the relative strengths of teams than simply looking at data points.  One example of this is you. In your podcasts, you will often back up your opinions with "I have seen team A once and Team B twice, and team A seems stronger to me". Totally valid.  Given the varied landscape of D-III, I assume you feel more confident in your opinions if you have seen teams play than if you simply poured through statistics, never having seen them. Further, I assume your opinions are also stronger if you have seen teams play that those statistics were compiled against. Again, that is the eye test.

I think there are two reasons that UW-W was referred to in Emma's post and neither implied what you inferred (again, just my belief):

1. It has been several UW-W posters that have been contending along these lines. Therefore, Emma referred to the lot of us.

2. Important nuance: I think it's fair to say that seeing teams more often gives one a better feel for those teams. Considering this discussion is relative to the playoffs, it is also fair to say (IMO) that the better handle one has on what the elite teams look like, the more one is able  to discern how other teams measure up against them.  None of this has anything to do with UW-W or the WIAC. It has everything to do with carefully watching football games involving the elite teams and teams of varying skills and abilities.  IMO, Emma was simply pointing out the fact that UW-W fans have had a unique opportunity to see elite level teams in person over the years. Is there another program that has played the combined number of games against Mount Union, Linfield, UMHB, and Wesley that UW-W has? I'm guessing no. It doesn't make us smarter. And trust me, no UW-W fan that I know is delusional enough to think we are smart just because UW-W is good.  We are smart because we are smart! (ok, joking, just a little levity).  Seriously, it certainly does NOT mean that the opinions of a UW-W poster is more valid than the opinions of others. 

But pointing out facts is not, in itself, arrogant. It is simply making a case for the opinion you are stating. For whatever reason, there often seems to be a lot of emotional response to a UW-W poster posting an opinion. The whole "you want us to kiss your ring" thing gets a bit old. A Wabash poster is free to look down his nose at a poster, calling their post "hackery" or "lazy". No worries, that is within the tradition of D3 boards. Fair enough. They also are free to create a "straw man" and argue against that straw man, pretending they are arguing against the point a UW-W poster has made. Again, fair enough.  A great  debate technique, right?

But Emma walks on dangerous ground when he tries to make a relatively simple point: "When you are talking about championship contenders , UW-W fans have seen enough good teams to know one when we see one. And Wabash ain't it.  Maybe next year, but not now."  And make no mistake, he was speaking within context of Wabash posters loving their draw and predicting a Wabash victory against the defending national champion. So they were proclaiming themselves a championship contender at that point IMO. When you proclaim yourself a national contender. Wabash fans had every right to predict victory, that's great. But then UW-W fans have every right to both counter that before the game and hold them accountable after the game.

For the record, Emma never said "UWW fans are the only ones qualified to determine whether UWO or UWP belong in the playoffs, because we are UWW."  IMO, what he said was more like, "ANY football guy/gal who actually watches enough games with pertinent teams closely enough, can make a better determination on which teams are stronger than pouring through statistics and ratings and mathematical models".  It's a point that can be debated. But his side of the point has little to do with UW-W and certainly does not project UW-W arrogance IMO.

[BashDad]

uuuuuuuuuuuggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh

[MasterJedi]

Changing subjects: Contgrats to Wabash on a great season! Hardest hitting defense I've seen so far. Obviously have gotten a lot better since the 07 game and should have a bright future ahead of you.

Also glad to see that people are as amazed by Kumerow as we are. Also nice to see people are thinking Kumerow is better then the WR from HSC (can't remember the name) that one of their posters was claiming was the best D3 WR.

[firstdown]

Bleedpurple

No doubt some of the Wabash faithful were over the top in their statements.  UWW doesn't have all of those National Championship banners at the Perk for nothing.  Nonetheless, other than e-mailing in a forfeit, you go to play the game.   You have to hope in your heart that lightning will strike (as it did on the 2011 game against North Central)  while you know in your head what you are up against and that the odds are pretty long against you.

Wabash was fortunate that have a great group of seniors that gave 100% yesterday.  If you look at the Wabash roster though, you will see that the majority of the starters are underclassmen.  As freshmen, this group of seniors had a run in the playoffs and learned what it takes.  They wanted all the underclassmen to see truly how good a top team like UWW is in the hope that in every session in the weight room this winter and spring, and as practice begins next August, they will have gained an understanding of what the seniors and the coaches have been saying and preparing them for. 

I agree with Emma17 in part that the NCAC does not have the strength of a WIAC top to bottom.  Some games provide an opportunity to give a lot of players on the roster game experience to build depth.  Nonetheless, watching how UWW played very played on every down at 100% is one of the lessons that the Wabash underclassmen needed to see in action.  If the lessons from yesterday are taken to heart, Wabash will be back next year and ready to move it up a notch or two.

MasterJedi, having now seen Kumerow in action and Holton Walker of H-S in action, they are both amazing.  Kumerow was a bit slowed by injuries yesterday, I can only imagine how good he is when  he is at 100%.  I am more than happy to statement that they are the 2 best receivers in D3. 

Finally,Congrats to a great group of seniors at Wabash.  They won the Monon Bell all 4 years and went to the playoffs twice  They have set a standard for those who follow after.

[BayernFan]

I noticed that the UWW band was there playing the UWW fight song throughout the game.  I remember them doing that during the '07 game as well.  I thought there was a NCAA rule that during the playoffs all home team traditions, fight songs etc could not be run in order to make the setting as neutral as possible.  I know that Wabash does not allow its PA announcer to lead its first down cheer.  I remember in '05 the Capital fan who parked just behind the fence next to the visitor stands at LG stadium, hooked up monster speakers to his truck, and blared the Capital fight song throughout that game (I thought that was ingenious and funny).  So what are the specifics of that rule?  Have I imagined it?  I'm not complaining, I'm just curious.