FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[BayernFan]

Say all you want about believing or not believing; none of the rest of us can control that.  I repeat myself:  ER is not paid anything close to 350K.  Does he have a major influence on student-athletes and by extension on other students?  Indeed he does.  Is that influence greater than any other person's on campus?  That I don't know and there is no easy way to measure such affects.  You can't assume he does simply because there are 100+ players on the football team.    By the way, the Treasurer (chief financial officer) at Wabash is not provided a house.  The president lives in an official college residence as part of his compensation package.  Several other college officials have, over time, lived in houses owned by the college.  And they have all paid some form of rent or leased those properties (with the possible exception of the Dean of the College--I don't know about that arrangement).
     I'm at the end of my patience on this, so I'll sit out from now on.
   

You are right.  It is the Dean of the College, not the Treasurer.  I was mistaken when I said it was the Treasurer.

[badgerwarhawk]

 

In the 2014-15 academic year Lance Leipold was earning $83,388 as a coach.  He also served as an administrative program manager in student affairs ($13,977) and as an administrative program manager in general education administration ($11,635).   That totals $108,650. 

Three coaches in the WIAC are being compensated strictly for coaching and that salary range is $60,138-$69,964.  All of the rest earn less ($36,678 - $56,000) as a coach but their salaries also include compensation for other duties which put them in approximently the same range as those strictly coaching. 

These figures are only their state salaries and does not include any additional compensation they may be receiving from private sources.

This is a matter of public record. 


P.S.  I don't think you are a troll, just mistaken due to misinformation. 

[02 Warhawk]

In the 2014-15 academic year Lance Leipold was earning $83,388 as a coach.  He also served as an administrative program manager in student affairs ($13,977) and as an administrative program manager in general education administration ($11,635).   That totals $108,650. 

Three coaches in the WIAC are being compensated strictly for coaching and that salary range is $60,138-$69,964.  All of the rest earn less ($36,678 - $56,000) as a coach but their salaries also include compensation for other duties which put them in approximently the same range as those strictly coaching. 

These figures are only their state salaries and does not include any additional compensation they may be receiving from private sources.

This is a matter of public record. 


P.S.  I don't think you are a troll, just mistaken due to misinformation.

And no way Reaburn would even get that much if offered the UWW job. So why apply a sub $100K job when you're making +$300K?

Answer: He wasn't making +300K to begin with

[ExTartanPlayer]

Finally, just because we disagree and have different opinions, I hardly think that makes me a "troll".  I thought Wabash men were better than that. 

To be fair, I am not a Wabash Man, so don't blame any of them for calling you a troll.  Blame me

Seriously, you don't have to extol the virtues of a football coach and the positive impact he can have on student-athletes here.  Everyone who posts here knows that.  I have tremendous respect and admiration for my collegiate head coach and both coordinators.  Leaders of men, life lessons, all that.  Really.  I'm not being snide.  Those are real things.

With that said, I would seriously question the institutional priorities at my alma mater (we're not including FBS football factories in this discussion) if I learned that they made a comparable salary to the University president. 

And I vehemently disagree with the assertion that a successful Division III football coach does more to further the mission of the school than a president, dean, or professor.

It would be genuinely interesting to know how alumni donations (to the entire school) relate to the success of football programs including only Division III schools.  I would be genuinely curious to know if the somewhat-plausible belief that Good Football Team ---> More Donations is really true.  My guess is, not really.  I think you're really, really over-estimating the following that football has at most Division III schools.  My anecdotal experience shows that even football alums are not always aware of how their school's football team has been doing of late.

[02 Warhawk]

Finally, just because we disagree and have different opinions, I hardly think that makes me a "troll".  I thought Wabash men were better than that. 

To be fair, I am not a Wabash Man, so don't blame any of them for calling you a troll.  Blame me

Seriously, you don't have to extol the virtues of a football coach and the positive impact he can have on student-athletes here.  Everyone who posts here knows that.  I have tremendous respect and admiration for my collegiate head coach and both coordinators.  Leaders of men, life lessons, all that.  Really.  I'm not being snide.  Those are real things.

With that said, I would seriously question the institutional priorities at my alma mater (we're not including FBS football factories in this discussion) if I learned that they made a comparable salary to the University president. 

And I vehemently disagree with the assertion that a successful Division III football coach does more to further the mission of the school than a president, dean, or professor.

It would be genuinely interesting to know how alumni donations (to the entire school) relate to the success of football programs including only Division III schools.  I would be genuinely curious to know if the somewhat-plausible belief that Good Football Team ---> More Donations is really true.  My guess is, not really.  I think you're really, really over-estimating the following that football has at most Division III schools.  My anecdotal experience shows that even football alums are not always aware of how their school's football team has been doing of late.

troll

[smedindy]

Finally, just because we disagree and have different opinions, I hardly think that makes me a "troll".  I thought Wabash men were better than that. 

It would be genuinely interesting to know how alumni donations (to the entire school) relate to the success of football programs including only Division III schools.  I would be genuinely curious to know if the somewhat-plausible belief that Good Football Team ---> More Donations is really true.  My guess is, not really.  I think you're really, really over-estimating the following that football has at most Division III schools.  My anecdotal experience shows that even football alums are not always aware of how their school's football team has been doing of late.

That's pretty easy to find; if the school supplies data to the VSE you can find their fundraising for the year, and then match it with their football prowess.

But, be careful of false positives. Amherst, as you know gets buckets of money every year, but in no way is the because they were 8-0 on the gridiron!

[ExTartanPlayer]

Finally, just because we disagree and have different opinions, I hardly think that makes me a "troll".  I thought Wabash men were better than that. 

It would be genuinely interesting to know how alumni donations (to the entire school) relate to the success of football programs including only Division III schools.  I would be genuinely curious to know if the somewhat-plausible belief that Good Football Team ---> More Donations is really true.  My guess is, not really.  I think you're really, really over-estimating the following that football has at most Division III schools.  My anecdotal experience shows that even football alums are not always aware of how their school's football team has been doing of late.

That's pretty easy to find; if the school supplies data to the VSE you can find their fundraising for the year, and then match it with their football prowess.

But, be careful of false positives. Amherst, as you know gets buckets of money every year, but in no way is the because they were 8-0 on the gridiron!

I wouldn't fall for this - I'm a statistician by trade.  I wouldn't be matching records vs. donations across a bunch of schools, but rather, I'd be looking for within-school trends.  Take a selection of a bunch of different D3 schools, get 10 years or so of data, and look at the year-by-year trends for each school.  Maybe I'll take the time to do it sooner or later.

[BayernFan]

Finally, just because we disagree and have different opinions, I hardly think that makes me a "troll".  I thought Wabash men were better than that. 

To be fair, I am not a Wabash Man, so don't blame any of them for calling you a troll.  Blame me

Seriously, you don't have to extol the virtues of a football coach and the positive impact he can have on student-athletes here.  Everyone who posts here knows that.  I have tremendous respect and admiration for my collegiate head coach and both coordinators.  Leaders of men, life lessons, all that.  Really.  I'm not being snide.  Those are real things.

With that said, I would seriously question the institutional priorities at my alma mater (we're not including FBS football factories in this discussion) if I learned that they made a comparable salary to the University president. 

And I vehemently disagree with the assertion that a successful Division III football coach does more to further the mission of the school than a president, dean, or professor.

It would be genuinely interesting to know how alumni donations (to the entire school) relate to the success of football programs including only Division III schools.  I would be genuinely curious to know if the somewhat-plausible belief that Good Football Team ---> More Donations is really true.  My guess is, not really.  I think you're really, really over-estimating the following that football has at most Division III schools.  My anecdotal experience shows that even football alums are not always aware of how their school's football team has been doing of late.

Not only an increase in donations, but real growth in the reach of student recruitment.  More students apply.  For example, I understand that applications to Butler increased a ton after Butler made it to those final fours a few years back.  I don't know how much the application fee is at Wabash, but success in football is something that probably results in increases in new student applications.  Wabash can be more selective.

If that means paying the football coaches more, then so be it.  That allows Wabash to further its mission, regardless of what the President does.  There is nothing that requires that the President has to make tons more than the football coach.  It's all about value.  if paying the President 300k and the coach 300k (instead of 100k) because that extra 200k yields more student apps from athletes and non-athletes, more alumni donations and involvement, and a good time on Saturdays for everyone from August through December, what is the big deal?  Why is there so much horror here at the mere thought of a football coach making comparable $$$ to the President?  Is there a rule against it?  It's just business.

I ask again.... how much is too much to pay a Wabash football coach?  125k?  150k?  If it takes only 150k to guarantee (as much as that sort of thing can be guaranteed) that Wabash maintains success on the gridiron, wouldn't it be worth spending the extra 50k a year?  Or would you be willing to risk the alternative?  Say five years of 6-4 or 7-3 seasons (or worse), while saving that 50k. Wouldn't Wabash lose more than that in such a scenario?

Are you saying that D3 is simply not worth that kind of expense in football?  Because other divisions' schools have made the business decision to spend the money on football.

And, by the way, let's not forget that Wabash DID spend a HUGE amount of money on its athletic facilities 20 years ago.  Huge.  And again a few years back. Should Wabash not have done so?  Seeing as it did, why the bugaboo about spending money on athletic personnel like coaching staffs?  That is not ok?

[BayernFan]

Let me ask this.  Let's say ER makes about 80k at Wabash, and UW-W offers him the job for 110k for a five year deal.

Wabash could keep him for those five years if it is willing to go to 120k for five years.

Should Wabash do so?  Is that too much for a football coach at Wabash?  He would, after all, be creeping close to what some Deans make (in the 150-160 range per the 990s).  Is that too close?

Or would it be worth it?  To you as an alum and as a football fan?

Or should Wabash let him go and hire someone else for 65-80k (saving 40-55k a year and making the Deans happy) and see what happens?

[wally_wabash]

I think you're assuming that Wabash's giving base is influenced proportionally by the football team's success and I think that's dead wrong.  I've given every year since graduation and not once have I even thought about football when doing so.  This isn't Tuscaloosa or Columbus and we aren't boosters (thank God).  I can't stress this enough: Division III football is not Division I football, no matter how much you want to pretend that it is. 

Let's play devil's advocate for a minute.  You claim that Wabash digging deeper to overpay (per the market) a great football coach begets wins and happy feelings amongst many alumni who in turn cut giant checks at homecomings because they had a great time and that those extra donations more than offset the extra compensation for the coach.  Maybe.  Consider that roughly 10% or so of the living alumni played football at Wabash...that leaves 90% of alumni that didn't.  And 90% of alumni that are endeared to Wabash for a lot of reasons other than football...academic resources, student life resources, career services resources, student activities, literally dozens and dozens of other things that exist to mold Wabash men that exist beyond fall Saturdays.  How many of those 90% would be negatively influenced if they knew that their donations were being steered to overpay a football coach...donations that could be used for grants or scholarships to support the kid that will be the next Rhodes Scholar?  Maybe you lose more donations than you gain.  It's not crazy. 

[BayernFan]

I think you're assuming that Wabash's giving base is influenced proportionally by the football team's success and I think that's dead wrong.  I've given every year since graduation and not once have I even thought about football when doing so.  This isn't Tuscaloosa or Columbus and we aren't boosters (thank God).  I can't stress this enough: Division III football is not Division I football, no matter how much you want to pretend that it is. 

Let's play devil's advocate for a minute.  You claim that Wabash digging deeper to overpay (per the market) a great football coach begets wins and happy feelings amongst many alumni who in turn cut giant checks at homecomings because they had a great time and that those extra donations more than offset the extra compensation for the coach.  Maybe.  Consider that roughly 10% or so of the living alumni played football at Wabash...that leaves 90% of alumni that didn't.  And 90% of alumni that are endeared to Wabash for a lot of reasons other than football...academic resources, student life resources, career services resources, student activities, literally dozens and dozens of other things that exist to mold Wabash men that exist beyond fall Saturdays.  How many of those 90% would be negatively influenced if they knew that their donations were being steered to overpay a football coach...donations that could be used for grants or scholarships to support the kid that will be the next Rhodes Scholar?  Maybe you lose more donations than you gain.  It's not crazy.

It's not just donations and giving.  It is raising the profile of Wabash in recruiting future students, increasing alumni involvement, making Wabash known for more than football.  Other divisions do this. 

As for football, Wabash is recruiting against Franklin, Marian, and a resurgent DePauw (which is spending ton$ on athletics facilities... and I wonder how much Lynch makes?).  Whatever happened to Trine, btw?  I don't know.  And that is in Indiana.  Add to that the NCAC and other rivals above D3 like maybe Dayton.  Is it enough for Wabash and you were Wabash to "merely" have consistent winning season like it did pre-Creighton?  Is the bar now higher so that Wabash should be willing to part with more money in order to attract the coaching candidates who have the resume that can carry on the success of the last 15 years?

Is it worth an additional 50k a year to continue that?  I couldn't imagine very many Wabash alums begrudging such an expense.

[Bishopleftiesdad]

Bayern,
Many of the Alumni and students did not pick Wabash because their Football success. You keep mentioning it, and while Wabash does take their football seriously, I cannot imagine Wabash's , or many D3's enrollment, would fall because the Football team was not successful. You may not get all the type of football recruits you want but you would get just as many. Most students do not pick a school based on how the football team does. Most of these students are looking at academics, and what my degree will be worth after graduation. I feel you are trying to take the D1 philosophy and applying it to D3. It just cannot be done.
Most Wabash students would have chosen Wabash whether or not the Football team is any good. Most of D3 is a bit more steeped in academia then you typical big state university D1. They have chosen D3 for a balance, and Student comes before  Athlete for a reason. 

[BayernFan]

Bayern,
Many of the Alumni and students did not pick Wabash because their Football success. You keep mentioning it, and while Wabash does take their football seriously, I cannot imagine Wabash's , or many D3's enrollment, would fall because the Football team was not successful. You may not get all the type of football recruits you want but you would get just as many. Most students do not pick a school based on how the football team does. Most of these students are looking at academics, and what my degree will be worth after graduation. I feel you are trying to take the D1 philosophy and applying it to D3. It just cannot be done.
Most Wabash students would have chosen Wabash whether or not the Football team is any good. Most of D3 is a bit more steeped in academia then you typical big state university D1. They have chosen D3 for a balance, and Student comes before  Athlete for a reason.

Successful athletics, especially football, gets the attention of a lot of people.  It raises the school's profile amongst prospective students, prospective professors and visiting scholars, alums, and basically puts the school on the map.  It is not that much different from D1 or any other division.  Aside from these benefits, a successful football program provides real benefits to the athletes on campus and the entire student body.  To me, it is worth an extra 50k a year to a coach to see to it that this continues.  A classic no brainer.  imo.

[ExTartanPlayer]

Not only an increase in donations, but real growth in the reach of student recruitment.  More students apply.  For example, I understand that applications to Butler increased a ton after Butler made it to those final fours a few years back.  I don't know how much the application fee is at Wabash, but success in football is something that probably results in increases in new student applications.  Wabash can be more selective.

Wait-just-a-hot-second here.  You're using an increase in applications at Butler after reaching the NCAA Men's Basketball Final Four - one of the most-watched television events in the entire country, regardless of genre, time of year, etc, and the single event that makes NCAA gazillions possible - and generalizing that to suggest that Wabash going 9-1 and making the second round of the NCAA Division III Football Playoffs will result in significantly more applications to Wabash instead of going 7-3 or 6-4 or whatever?

Seriously.  Please.  Just stop.

[ExTartanPlayer]

Bayern,
Many of the Alumni and students did not pick Wabash because their Football success. You keep mentioning it, and while Wabash does take their football seriously, I cannot imagine Wabash's , or many D3's enrollment, would fall because the Football team was not successful. You may not get all the type of football recruits you want but you would get just as many. Most students do not pick a school based on how the football team does. Most of these students are looking at academics, and what my degree will be worth after graduation. I feel you are trying to take the D1 philosophy and applying it to D3. It just cannot be done.
Most Wabash students would have chosen Wabash whether or not the Football team is any good. Most of D3 is a bit more steeped in academia then you typical big state university D1. They have chosen D3 for a balance, and Student comes before  Athlete for a reason.

Successful athletics, especially football, gets the attention of a lot of people.  It raises the school's profile amongst prospective students, prospective professors and visiting scholars, alums, and basically puts the school on the map.  It is not that much different from D1 or any other division.  Aside from these benefits, a successful football program provides real benefits to the athletes on campus and the entire student body.  To me, it is worth an extra 50k a year to a coach to see to it that this continues.  A classic no brainer.  imo.

Please, walk out into your office, or wherever you work, and ask half-a-dozen people that are not Division 3 football fans to name last year's Division 3 semifinalists.

Maybe an astute non-D3 fan knows that Whitewater and Mount Union have played in a bunch of Staggs in a row if he happens to read an article every so often or flipped through the game on ESPN 8, The Ocho.  Do you really think people who are not already serious D3 fans can tell you which "pretty good" teams made the playoffs last year and which didn't?

"It is not that much different from any other division" - I also encourage you to look up the TV ratings for this year's Division I College Football Playoff and the Stagg Bowl.