FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[wabashcpa]

For sure.  It is a true testament to the quality of kids and staff that the program has advanced to where it is today.

[cave2bens]

We've ventured into the top ten several times under Raeburn and Creighton.  I  struggle to think that the thing that keeps us from moving from top ten to top four is our culture as an all-male liberal arts college.

That said, if it is our culture that prevents us from reaching any further than the elite eight, I suspect that there are precious few of us amongst the alumni who would trade that culture for a championship.

Rhetoric major, per chance?  Beautifully expressed, Joe W.

[tommiegun]

Thanks Wally, hard to really get a sense of that when you are watching video at two frames per minute and listening to opponent radio (thankfully my tunein app got the station). Two key plays for Wabash- the called back Zurek TD for holding and the no safety call that the tommies turned into a 99 yard TD drive. Did anybody get a better sense if those calls were worth griping about?

Also learned for the first time today that apparently a halfback can't throw the ball away even if standing on the numbers.

Another key play, of course, being a St. Thomas touchdown pass incorrectly ruled incomplete that would have made it 21-0.

[tommiegun]

There's a difference between "solid" (my words) and "really good" (yours) ... at least in my book.

But on the larger point, we aren't that far apart. And I'll own that I poorly phrased the part about "not agreeing." Ham-handed on my part.  I meant you might not agree about "being in the window." Maybe you do. If so, cool. If not, that's your right.

In the end, we disagree over which team had a better season. And -- as I've said before -- I thought another poster was wrong when they said SJU was not as good as everyone wanted them to be.

SAINTSFan: Not basing this on one game to "discredit" Wabash. I give Wabash great credit. Any elite 8 team has had a great season. And voting Wabash over SJU would be the natural thing for a TM fan. Not a shock.

St. John's was better than Wabash this year. There. I said it.  Based on eye test.  Based on SJU giving a healthy St. Thomas a competitive game into the 3rd quarter earlier this year.  Based on conference affiliation.  I'd put Wabash at the level of Concordia-Moorhead this year, which is a top 20 team IMHO.  That is nothing to be disappointed about.

[Pat Coleman]

Thanks Wally, hard to really get a sense of that when you are watching video at two frames per minute and listening to opponent radio (thankfully my tunein app got the station). Two key plays for Wabash- the called back Zurek TD for holding and the no safety call that the tommies turned into a 99 yard TD drive. Did anybody get a better sense if those calls were worth griping about?

Also learned for the first time today that apparently a halfback can't throw the ball away even if standing on the numbers.

Another key play, of course, being a St. Thomas touchdown pass incorrectly ruled incomplete that would have made it 21-0.

That was a good call. He didn't catch that ball. Hated the way the ref described it on the mic, though

[wally_wabash]

There's a difference between "solid" (my words) and "really good" (yours) ... at least in my book.

But on the larger point, we aren't that far apart. And I'll own that I poorly phrased the part about "not agreeing." Ham-handed on my part.  I meant you might not agree about "being in the window." Maybe you do. If so, cool. If not, that's your right.

In the end, we disagree over which team had a better season. And -- as I've said before -- I thought another poster was wrong when they said SJU was not as good as everyone wanted them to be.

SAINTSFan: Not basing this on one game to "discredit" Wabash. I give Wabash great credit. Any elite 8 team has had a great season. And voting Wabash over SJU would be the natural thing for a TM fan. Not a shock.

St. John's was better than Wabash this year. There. I said it.  Based on eye test.  Based on SJU giving a healthy St. Thomas a competitive game into the 3rd quarter earlier this year.  Based on conference affiliation.  I'd put Wabash at the level of Concordia-Moorhead this year, which is a top 20 team IMHO.  That is nothing to be disappointed about.

Not disappointed at all.  You're absolutely wrong, btw.  You're basing your entire judgment of two teams based on one game (out of 12 or 13).  It's inappropriate, it's lazy, and it's wrong.  But we'll never get away from this kind of analysis for as long as we are exceedingly occupied and distracted by what conference teams play in instead of letting ourselves get occupied with the substance of the teams we actually want to compare.  But that takes an effort that most people (like yourself apparently) just don't want to put forth. 

[jamtod]

There's a difference between "solid" (my words) and "really good" (yours) ... at least in my book.

But on the larger point, we aren't that far apart. And I'll own that I poorly phrased the part about "not agreeing." Ham-handed on my part.  I meant you might not agree about "being in the window." Maybe you do. If so, cool. If not, that's your right.

In the end, we disagree over which team had a better season. And -- as I've said before -- I thought another poster was wrong when they said SJU was not as good as everyone wanted them to be.

SAINTSFan: Not basing this on one game to "discredit" Wabash. I give Wabash great credit. Any elite 8 team has had a great season. And voting Wabash over SJU would be the natural thing for a TM fan. Not a shock.

St. John's was better than Wabash this year. There. I said it.  Based on eye test.  Based on SJU giving a healthy St. Thomas a competitive game into the 3rd quarter earlier this year.  Based on conference affiliation.  I'd put Wabash at the level of Concordia-Moorhead this year, which is a top 20 team IMHO.  That is nothing to be disappointed about.

Not disappointed at all.  You're absolutely wrong, btw.  You're basing your entire judgment of two teams based on one game (out of 12 or 13).  It's inappropriate, it's lazy, and it's wrong.  But we'll never get away from this kind of analysis for as long as we are exceedingly occupied and distracted by what conference teams play in instead of letting ourselves get occupied with the substance of the teams we actually want to compare.  But that takes an effort that most people (like yourself apparently) just don't want to put forth.

I'm not sure how he can be absolutely wrong, when he's giving his opinion, just as you are.  He noted conference as one factor, and also several other reasons to support his opinion. I was at both games and my eye test would back up what he said.  I was impressed with Wabash and St Thomas really capitalized on special teams and Wabash's unfamiliarity with our aggressive approach, but IMO St John's played us tougher, faced our top RB mostly healthy for most of the game (as well as most of our first teamers for a substantial chunk of the game), and played with their backup QB.

[Pat Coleman]

Agreed -- there's no absolutes there. I even asked a MIAC coach who was at the game Saturday if he were voting, would he take St. John's or Wabash higher in the Top 25, and he said: "St. John's. But wait, that's probably just because they know St. Thomas better."

There's no absolutes here. I suspect with the 25 voters we'll have a really big split in the ballots as to who has which of those two teams higher. What's inappropriate is saying that someone's perfectly defensible opinion is absolutely wrong.

[smedindy]

Again, it's kind of meaningless. Next year's teams will be different. This year, both teams were darn good. Whether Wabash was the 7th best, 9th best or 11th best - they made the final 8 of the tourney and got beat by one of the Top 4 teams in the country - a team that could legit win the whole thing.

[wally_wabash]

Agreed -- there's no absolutes there. I even asked a MIAC coach who was at the game Saturday if he were voting, would he take St. John's or Wabash higher in the Top 25, and he said: "St. John's. But wait, that's probably just because they know St. Thomas better."

Glad somebody else out there thinks that this is an important point. 

[Desertraider]

Again, it's kind of meaningless. Next year's teams will be different. This year, both teams were darn good. Whether Wabash was the 7th best, 9th best or 11th best - they made the final 8 of the tourney and got beat by one of the Top 4 teams in the country - a team that could legit win the whole thing.

That's the best point made on this issue. A ton of conversation about this after Mount got rolled by UWW in the Stagg a couple of years ago. Who should be #2 Mount, UMHB, etc... It doesn't really matter. In the end there is #1 and the rest is up for debate BUT if you make it to the quarters or semis - you are a pretty good team.

[Retired Old Rat]

Agreed -- there's no absolutes there. I even asked a MIAC coach who was at the game Saturday if he were voting, would he take St. John's or Wabash higher in the Top 25, and he said: "St. John's. But wait, that's probably just because they know St. Thomas better."

Glad somebody else out there thinks that this is an important point.

There's two sides to that coin.  UST was also unfamiliar with Wabash.

[jamtod]

Agreed -- there's no absolutes there. I even asked a MIAC coach who was at the game Saturday if he were voting, would he take St. John's or Wabash higher in the Top 25, and he said: "St. John's. But wait, that's probably just because they know St. Thomas better."

Glad somebody else out there thinks that this is an important point.

There's two sides to that coin.  UST was also unfamiliar with Wabash.

I think the idea is that teams that are familiar with one another tend to play closer games. I'm not sure if it has much statistical validity, but this gets trotted out frequently with rivalry games.

[jamtod]

Again, it's kind of meaningless. Next year's teams will be different. This year, both teams were darn good. Whether Wabash was the 7th best, 9th best or 11th best - they made the final 8 of the tourney and got beat by one of the Top 4 teams in the country - a team that could legit win the whole thing.

That's the best point made on this issue. A ton of conversation about this after Mount got rolled by UWW in the Stagg a couple of years ago. Who should be #2 Mount, UMHB, etc... It doesn't really matter. In the end there is #1 and the rest is up for debate BUT if you make it to the quarters or semis - you are a pretty good team.

Debate is enjoyable. Especially when it involves two teams that we beat trying to measure themselves against one another in their off-season.

[DPU3619]

Agreed -- there's no absolutes there. I even asked a MIAC coach who was at the game Saturday if he were voting, would he take St. John's or Wabash higher in the Top 25, and he said: "St. John's. But wait, that's probably just because they know St. Thomas better."

Glad somebody else out there thinks that this is an important point.

There's two sides to that coin.  UST was also unfamiliar with Wabash.

Bigger deal for a D to be familiar with an O than vice versa.

St John's has that advantage because their D sees UST every year. No such luck for Wabash on that front. Also, Wabash just isn't as good offensively, so that isn't quite as big of a deal for UST's D.