FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[bashbrother]

I know this is very late, but I want to thank Brent Harris, Howard Hewitt, Jim Amidon & and the rest of the Sports Information and website team for an absolutely outstanding job the entire 05 Football season.

Unfortunately, I was unable to attend as many games this year as I had in prior years.  I guess I picked the wrong year to build a new company.  It was great that even on away games they were able to have the story and a ton of pictures from the game, up on the site within minutes.  Not to mention that the quality of writing and photography was top notch all year long.

I know I am not alone in saying they helped make this year even more special for the Wabash fans all over the planet.

Thank You!

[BashBacker#16]

Supposedly, here are the finalists for the Butler job...

Sam Bernardi Former Associate Head Coach at Valparaiso
Ted Karras, Jr. Head Coach at Rose-Hulman
Rick Chamberlin Defensive Coordinator at Dayton
Mike Emendorfer Head Coach at U. of Wisconsin-Platteville
Andre Powell Special Teams Coordinator at UNC-Chapel Hill

Pretty gross if you ask me.  This shows what kind of state Butler football is in right now.  Rose Hulman?  Valpo? The DC at Dayton might be pretty good but he has been there for 18 years.  Would you want to go from that to Butler?

Thought some of you might find this interesting since we have had some posts on Butler football.

[lancer98]

Wally,

I maybe undersold them a bit but I have said all along Witt was a good team in relation to the conference.  Outside the conference they showed otherwise which was the measuring stick I was using upleading to the Wabash-Cap game.  Witt losing to Cap 54-0 and almost beating 'Bash was the reason I thought Bash would get handled by Cap pretty easily.  I was wrong as I said in my earlier post that using that comparison is not always a good one as different teams matchup differently and games are played in different times of the year.

Thing thing that you said that gets me is

We shouldn't be surprised that Witt and Wabash played a close game.

What?  You bashed Witt all year long about how bad they were and weren't that good as I and others on here defended them as a quality conference contender.  I just looked on the Pick'ems page and you had them a 20.5 point underdog in that game.  If you expected a close game why such a large spread?  I have yet to hear you admit to being 100% wrong on that topic.  And that is one you so adamently defended for a long period of time.  Sometimes you need to pick a side and when your wrong admit it.

[wally_wabash]

Are you saying that Witt WASN'T terrible in the first month of the season?  They were.  But that's not necessarily a static condition...Witt tightened up their defense and played a strong second half.  The Witt team that came to Wabash in October and then railed the Scots and the Bishops is a lot closer to the team we expected to see from the outset (the team that was picked to finish first in the league by the way...how quickly we forget). 

When I piled on Witt early in the season, Witt was playing horribly.  Look at the boxscores from Witt's first three games.  They are positively Hiram-esque.  When Witt picked up their game in the second half of the season, I gave them their due.  When you say that I "bashed [Witt] all year long" that simply isn't true.  I'm no Witt apologist, so you didn't see me post any great tributes to their turnaround, but I have mentioned it and when I have more time I'll find such a post for you. 

What you have to understand about the point spreads, lancer, is that the point spreads are not designed to necessarily be an accurrate prediction of a game's outcome, but rather are designed to put people on the fence and get an even pick distribution.  My pick 'em distribution that week went 15 for Wabash, 11 for Witt.  Pretty even.  But that NCAC pick 'em market is saturated with Wabash posters that will pick Wabash no matter what, you say?  Fine, don't take my word for it.  The OAC guys put a 21.5-point line on the game (one more point than I was willing to put down!)...their distribution was 21 for Wabash, 17 for Witt.   And while there are Wabash guys picking over there, they certainly aren't as concentrated.  About half of the non-Wabash pickers on the OAC board thought that Wabash, at home, was more than 3 touchdowns better than Witt.  There was no bias there (if anything, the OAC crowd is biased against Wabash)...and the OAC's line was set and posted BEFORE my line was set and posted so the line set there was not influenced by anything I did. 

And you also misread my words.  I said that we shouldn't be "surprised" that the game was close.  Not that I "expected" the game to be close.  That's two completely different things.  Based on the pick 'em results, over half of the people that weighed in on this game didn't "expect" a close game.  I don't think many of those people were "surprised" that it ended up being close. 

This inside the conference vs. outside the conference business has very little bearing.  If week 1 Witt is the same as the week 8 Witt, then you have a great point.  But that's not the case (and you're bright enough to know that), and your oversimplification of what happened this season is leading you to draw false conclusions. 

[Cap99Fan]

WOW

[reality check]

Wally

The OAC crowd is no more biased against Wabash than they are against Witt.  Many OAC'ers think that they are equally overrated year-in and year-out.  And you know as well as I do that until they get a W in the win column in the playoffs over an OAC foe, that mentality will continue to exist.

I am growing more and more annoyed though with the prevailing attitude that Wabash gets the short end of the respect stick year in and year out.  Now do not think that I am a Bash-hater because I have always had a healthy interest/respect for Wabash since they pursued me as a recruit in high school.  But I am not the only one that reads the prevailing attitudes on Post Patterns and get frustrated reading about all the "conspiracies", "disrespect" and "misunderstandings" regarding Wabash. 

There is often a serious complex prevalent in the collective Little Giant voice on this board and it is troubling to read as a unbiased outsider.  It is evident in "matter of fact" statements like "if anything the OAC is biased against Wabash..." and the collective outrage at someone saying, "If CAP played the way they did against MUC that they did with BASH, they might have put up more points..." that something is wrong.  It is as if the Little Giants suffer from "little man syndrom" or something where they always feel they have to prove their worth, and fight against the entire world. 

Wally, you bashed WITT all year long, not just the first five weeks of the season.  And to me, that's fine.  You don't like them.  I respect that as a fan of my own team.  But denying that you hated on them all year is just a bad thing.  Wabash shouldn't have beaten WITT by just three points.  You know it.  I know it.  And you, lancer, countless others and myself all know that you didn't anticipate a three point game despite the justification you gave and the pick 'em spreads.  No one that knows anything about it is buying it. 

Now I wish the Little Giants much luck in the offseason recruiting and 2006.  I just hope the superiority issues go away.  I see it in regarding Wabash's place in the Division III, in the attitudes taken in discussion that is anything non-Wabash and in the general tone taken by some of the posters.  If it is stated by enough people over the years you have to think it could be true. 

Now I will happily discuss this further if anyone wishes.  But I am quite sure that the karma police will do their hit and runs nonetheless.

[smedindy]

RC -

Please don't paint with a broad brush. I don't, and I try to keep some of our guys in line here. It's that sometimes some people do feel the NCAC goes out of their way to slap Wabash around, on picauyne stuff, like no longer being able to sit on the first row of bleachers at basketbal games.

One day, Wabash (or an NCAC brethren) WILL get that win over the OAC in the playoffs. Then the game will be on.

[wally_wabash]

Is there any reason that we have to capitalize Witt?  They aren't that special.

Given the shots taken at the expense of Wabash by many of your OAC peers, rc, I'm led to believe that if there is a bias it would be against Wabash.  A good number of the OACers like to take their shots about Wabash's enrollment policy, our slogan, the Sphinx Club's wardrobe, etc.  Once or twice is funny, doing it endlessly becomes disrespectful.  If you get the sense that Wabash posters are constantly trying to rebuke disrespect, it's probably because many are.  If you're tired of reading Wabash posters ranting about disrespect, then police your own.  I know you aren't the one constantly taking shots at Wabash, but you know there are posters that do.  Call them out on it.  You're not completely powerless here.  People are going to post what they want to post, but if what they're posting stops being funny, and somebody other than the people they're picking on tells them so, they'll probably stop.  

Wabash didn't beat Witt by just three points, but that's not totally relevant here.  

I stopped my rampant Witt bashing later in the year for a couple of reasons.  First, Witt proved that they had gotten their act together during their game in C'ville.  Second, once Wabash beat Witt, it was time to talk playoffs.  On several occasions in the last 6-8 weeks, I've defended Witt as being way better than their 5-5 record suggests.  You won't see me defend Witt's record very often, but in this case it's the right thing to do.  You can't say that I've "hated on" Witt all year, because really after Wabash got through with them, I didn't talk much about them at all.  I have hated on Witt in the past and I promise that I will hate on Witt in the future, but to say that I railed on Witt all year isn't entirely accurate.  I stopped talking about Witt after they were in the rearview.  

But really, why is it so bad that I called Witt football out early in the year?  Wittenberg is the most recognizeable name in the conference.  Wittenberg force feeds you the "all time winningest DIII team" all the time.  They are perennially the favorite in the conference, despite what any other team might have coming back or what Witt might not have.  If that's the game they want to play, fine.  But if they're going to be the torch bearer for the NCAC, it's not excusable for them to go lay eggs against Capital and Alma like they did.  Witt gets held to a higher standard around here....by their own doing.  

[gobash]

...and the collective outrage at someone saying, "If CAP played the way they did against MUC that they did with BASH, they might have put up more points..."

Yeah, there was collective outrage at that statement.  It wasn't only based on the statement, however, but that the douche who gave that statement hadn't even seen the game. 

It's one thing if MUC poster rip on Bash for things they've seen (our striped overalls on our male cheerleaders, our passion for all things red and white, and the relentless support of our team at games), but to make a statement like that, one which is not only uninformed but intentionally inflammatory to boot, is unacceptable.

And we don't have "little man syndrome"...it's just a healthy fear of midgets.  Dwarves are cool though.

[reality check]

Wally

I try to be serious about something and the first thing you can comment on is the "capitalization of Witt".  That's the pettiness and superiority complex that I was referring to as being an annoyance.  Really, was the most important point I made the capitalization of Wittenberg?  Did I make my point that poorly?  I capitalized BASH later in the post.  Was that out of line too?  I tend to capitalize most schools I abbreviate.  

Wally the world does not have a deep unrivaled bias against all things Crawfordsville.  Wabash is no less and no more a target than Wooster for dodging Mount Union for so many years (MUCfan's opinion), or Wittenberg for generally being demolished by the OAC in recent years (playoffs or otherwise) or Hiram for being the worst OAC team and now the worst NCAC team.  The Little Giants might wear red and white but the bullseye is not firmly painted on their backs as much as you would like to think.  In fact, I would venture to say that if it weren't for the incredible sensitivity that multiple Little Giant posters display in Post Patterns, they would not be on the OAC radar at all.  They are not a geographic factor for the OAC and there are no natural OAC rivalries.  Wabash is a school that the OAC might look at if the playoffs work themselves out as it did this year.  Otherwise the only reason OAC posters get on Wabash is the fact that they are so incredibly emotional when anyone pokes fun at them at any level whatsoever.  You ask me to police my own yet the issues you blow up about seem overblown as more of a withchunt than anything else in my opinion.  I literally shook my head at how much a comment got under the skin of many Wabash posters from reccesypnav last week.  Since I do respect Wabash and am not an MUC fan, I like to think I am a little unbiased on that issue and I still don't know why that remark was as "derrogatory" and "inflammatory" as it was received.  

Wally, I apoligize for having the spread wrong.  Perhaps the focus of your response would be better received by myself if the two most poignant responses I took from your retort were not the capitalizing of "WITT" and erroneously listing the score (point being that Wabash should have beaten WITT by much more than they did no questions asked).  

Side Note:  For a school with the most widely plastered motto in Division III (WAF), mentioning your disdain for the force-feeding of "winningest program in DIII" is quite humorous/ironic.  But that just means you really do hate those guys which I already mentioned I have no problem with.

Smed

Sorry to paint with a broad brush.  The general "world revolves around us" attitude that I am broadly painting has been cited by many OAC and non-OACers so I know I am not alone in this instance.

gobash

So the collective Little Giant panties got in a wad because one guy said "perhaps CAP could have put up more points on Wabash if they clicked on O like the did against MUC"?  That makes your fans an easy target getting upset over that.  And 'upset" is an understatement.  I admit I haven't seen anyting this year besides the webcast of the Monon Bell game for Wabash but from the way Pentello was throwing darts in the Mount Union game, and the receiving day of Howes, I would think that they could have done better against Wabash too.  It sounded like Pentello was stopped by a great defense in Crawfordsville much of the day of that game but that he was just on the mark like no other time this year against Mount Union.  I guess that makes me inflammatory too.  I apologize. 

Again, Wabash had a great season and played very well.  They have a great defense and looked good in the playoffs.  Now as is proper with the writing of all books....

The End.   

[raiderpa]

To all the Little Giants out there.....like anywhere, there are individuals who will refuse to give credit or respect,  no matter...

I would like to get all the negative posts together and find out just how many different individuals were included in them.

I have been a Mountie since 1972, and have not missed many games (under 10).  What I saw from Wabash was a great program with supportive fans...like most other places...but, we know that college students will act like college students, and get overly enthusiastic...this usually combined with Budweiser Bravery, causes problems to start and escalate...

I wish our home geriatrics would act a little crazy once in a while...

Any true champion, and you always see this from Larry Kehres, has great respect for his opponents, no matter their success or lack thereof..

As a real fan, (and there are many of us out there), I welcome all programs to MUC and respect what they have accomplished to get there...Those that fail to demsonstrate this respect for opponents  have not participated in athletic competition..

I have seen a great Witt team come into Mount in the playoffs and give a great account of themselves..great games... Heck, we wanted to be like Witt when I was a student at Mount, and almost made it...Allegheny,  too,  good games..


Wooster was once one of  Mount's biggest rivals, and we old guys would love to reconnect..

The only person that I have seen take what I would consider verbal abuse from the fans at Mount was KC Keeler at Rowan.  He just had an arrogance that you loved to hate.  I think he got a kick out of being the villain to Mount Union...
I repeat from an earlier post...let's play each other and stop speculation...is there an agreement with another conference that stops the NCAC from opening with OAC teams? I got that impression..

[wally_wabash]

That comment didn't piss me off because it was Wabash, it pissed me off because it was so full of the conceit that runs rampant amongst OAC fans.  If it isn't OAC football, it's just not good...that's the attitude that prevails.  And if that isn't the case, that's the attitude that comes through in the posts.  As annoyed as you are with Wabash's "incredible sensitivity", we are equally annoyed by the OAC's incredible sense of self-worth.  The constant flinging of things like Team X from the Collegiate Conference of Your Choice would finish fourth or fifth at best in the OAC is a slap in the face of the other good teams in the region.  I posted this previously...I could care less if the OAC fans here want to actually acknowledge that there are teams outside of their conference that are every bit as good as the teams inside of their conference...just don't go out of your way to dump all over those other teams.  I don't think that's asking too much.  But then rcp made his now infamous statement that set everybody off, and you're damn right people are going to get pissed about it.  A whole lot of the OAC posters can't win these playoff games without dumping all over the team they just beat as being clearly inferior competition to what the OAC puts out.  That's the problem and that's what sets me off.  

And if what you took from my first response were the two one-line paragraphs, then you missed the point.  The meat of the response was in the bulk of the post.

[smedindy]

Actually, in 2009 and 2010 the NCAC will be playing the UAA almost exclusively in non-conference (except for Earlham - and a few games scattered hither and yon for rivalries like the Bell game).

I don't mind it that much - others don't like it.

I really wish the Mount would come to C'ville. I was a little disappointed with the fans at Mount when Wabash went there for the playoffs. I thought they'd be a bit more frenzied, but maybe I'm spoiled because Wabash has had frenzied crowds for a long time, even when the team was going through some mediocre times.

[oldguy]

RC,

I agree with a lot of what you said in your posts.  However, the "infamous statement" was not as benign as "If Cap would have played like they did against Mount, they would have put up more points against Wabash."  The statement said something like "Cap could have put up more points if they needed to, or wanted to."  Wally is right, it was a blatent shot at Wabash and their defense.  That is why everyone, including non-Wabash posters like myself, jumped all over it.  When Witt, Woo, along with Bash posters jump on something, then its pretty obvious that there is more to it that just a simple comment.

[77staggbowl]

I haven't posted in a year or two but wanted to give you young ones a little insight on Wabash-Wittenberg history.  In '77 we were traveling to Kenyon and stopped in the dungeoneous crap hole stadium Witt had for our Friday afternoon walkthrough.  At the time we were something like 7-1 and Witt was a couple of years away from having won the Stagg Bowl.  The coaching staff was cordial but the players we encountered treated us like second class citizens and exhibited zero class.  How rewarding it was to be playing in the Stagg Bowl that year while they froze in Springfield.

Since Wabash has entered the NCAC it appears that Witt always gives an extra push after the whistle blows.  They have been the bully of the NCAC for so long they're frustrated.  Hope the 'bash continues to dominate them with class.