FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[formerd3db]

It was a while ago, but I wanted to add on why D-3 programs need bodies and D-1 only gets so many.

D-1 has 85 scholarships, and normally recruiting classes are 25 to 30. Sure there are walk-ons too. But it's all based on the scholarship limit. D-1AA and D-2 have lower limits and more walk-ons.

As Pat said, D-3 needs to get butts in the classrooms. But I think a big thing is that you just don't know about many D-3 kids, even if you scout them and see them in HS, because the move from HS stud to D-3 is still a big leap.

I remember talking to Brent Harris about Adi Pynenberg. It seems that the only college besides Wabash that took an interest in him was Oberlin. That says he was overlooked and under recruited. There, of course, have been those that have walked into Wabash as "the annointed one" and wound up being mediocre, or transferring, or deciding that the Sphinx Club was a better option than football.

Plus, in D-3 at top programs, players have to wait their turn. They don't just jump in unless they're exceptional or there's an injury. The waiting may be too much for some kids.

You never know about D-1 recruits sure, but you REALLY don't know about D-3 players and how they will react. Thus, the numbers game.

Smed:
Excellent syopsis.  DI has a limit of 30 preferred walk-ons.  I believe (although am not sure) that it is about the same for DII.  Also, as I recall, DII has a limit of 45 full scholarships and those schools then usually split those so that the 90 or so players on scholarship each get about 1/2 ride. 

Indeed, there are always "sleepers" at every level.  Following in that regard, I always enjoy hearing about when a walk-on eventually makes it big.  There are many examples of that; one I recall just about 4-5 years ago at Wisconsin (a DB/safety who became a starter after 2 years) and, of course, my all-time favorite story in this category (actually a tie with ND's Rudy story) - Don Warner of Univ of Michigan 1970-1973 (Middle Guard).  Like Rudy at ND, Warner walked into Coach Schembechler's office and asked to come out for the team.  Coach Schembechler wasn't going to allow him to come out for the team due to his size (5'10" 175 as freshman) but changed his mind (figuring that Warner would eventually quit when he got flattened as a pancake during the course of the year).  However, Warner stuck it out, playing on the demonstration teams for 3 years and actually wound up blocking/messing up the offensive plays in practice.  They couldn't keep him out of the backfield.  Schembechler puts him at No. 1 on the Depth Chart after Spring Practice his senior year 1973, figuring some younger player would beat him out in the fall.  Warner ended up starting every game that year at Middle Guard - his senior year and had bulked up to 195 by that time -  and was instrumental in the famed 10-10 tie with Ohio State that year.  His career ended that day, unfortunately, with a knee injury.  But Coach Schembechler later wrote and said that that was the greatest success story he ever had at Michigan.  Talk about inspiration, guts and determination!  I get "goose bumps" everytime I think of and/or hear/read about that story.  


 

[bashbrother]

Adi, the #40, ......  will always be the man on and off the field.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9z-6NQPCmo

[formerd3db]

     smeds, DPUfan,Wally et al.; your comments about Adi Pynenberg are absolutely on. However, there was a measure of his "heart" and skills before he ever showed up in C-ville. I recall talking to Brent Harris just before Adi's soph season (to see if he flunked out, or something). Brent said there wasn't much interest before the Illinois 7A championship game where Adi made 7 solo tackles and was voted MVP. Suddenly, he was mobbed by people from the FCS schools in Illinois- Western,Southern, Ill State, offering all sorts of grants-in aid. According to Brent, Adi said he wasn't interested-he HAD a scholarship to Wabash for academics. As far as flunking out his freshman year, he made the Dean's List both semesters and took a couse in chemistry in summer school, so he could cut back to 4 courses and leave more time for racketball.

Great supplement, wab64!

[D3_DPUFan]

Adi, the #40, ......  will always be the man on and off the field.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9z-6NQPCmo

I wondered how long it would be before someone put that link up...

That was a helluva a hit...on that day (and probably most days for Wabash) it looked as though he was in on EVERY play...helluva competitor.

[BTEXPRESS]

Just checked the NCAA guidelines. D II is limited to 36 Full Scholarships for football. However, the coach and school can split them up anyway they would like.

[formerd3db]

Just checked the NCAA guidelines. D II is limited to 36 Full Scholarships for football. However, the coach and school can split them up anyway they would like.

BTEXPRESS:

Thanks for the clarification and update.  I knew it was 45 several years ago, however, should have checked the current NCAA guidelines.  Since the limits for DI were decreased in recent years, it makes sense/follows that they did the same for DII.  Yet, I was not aware that it was decreased that far to 36 (Doing the math, they decreased the full scholarships for each nearly the same).  Anyway, thanks again for the info. 

[Li'l Giant]

Adi, the #40, ......  will always be the man on and off the field.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9z-6NQPCmo

I wondered how long it would be before someone put that link up...

That was a helluva a hit...on that day (and probably most days for Wabash) it looked as though he was in on EVERY play...helluva competitor.

One of my coworkers, a D3 alumnus himself (McMurry, TX) was watching and sent me a text message after that hit. To this day when we talk about football he brings up that hit.

Of course, I'd trade that big play for the one that Havercamp made.

[seinfeld]

While I can't say for 100% certainty, since I didn't extensively read the 2008-09 NCAA Div. III Manual http://www.ncaapublications.com/Uploads/PDF/Division_3_Manual_2008-093931a78a-9fe9-4077-93e0-d99fa45a51c1.pdf, the section 31.3.4.3 makes it seem pretty clear that you only need 7 teams to have an AQ bid from a conference. Now, I can't find any info on about seven teams making up a division of a conference, but I'm working under the assumption that Dennis Collins wouldn't have toyed with this idea if adding four more teams to the conference only made it harder, not easier for NCAC teams to make the NCAA Tournament.

As for reasons to do this, the two biggest reasons are increasing the number of NCAC schools in postseason play, and increasing the odds of making the playoffs for every team involved. With maybe the possible exception of Wabash, what NCAC team wouldn't want to improve their chances of an automatic bid from 1 in 10 to 1 in 7? Plus, the four UAA schools (plus DePauw) would enhance the academic reputation of the conference, not hurt it. I'm not even a big fan of the large conferences in Div. I, but I think it would only enhance the NCAC in football, and frankly, the NCAC needs some enhancing.

Of course I would rather see the playoff expanded by a few more teams more than this scenario.

[Ralph Turner]

Actually the way to what you hoped would be for the UAA to sponsor football and "borrow" three affiliates from the NCAC.  The affiliates might rotate if they wished.

The fact that the UAA did not arrange this in the first place implies that that was not what they wanted.  Rather they must have liked their chances in Pool B better.

http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=3549.msg647997#msg647997

Respectfully, I don't think that Commissioner Collins was going to persuade the UAA to do anything else.  The NCAC benefited from the arrangement.

The ASC is a fifteen team conference.  We only get one Pool A bid in all sports.

[Li'l Giant]

The fact that the UAA did not arrange this in the first place implies that that was not what they wanted.  Rather they must have liked their chances in Pool B better.

I think it's more of a philosophical choice. They want to have football but to sponsor it and have affiliates makes it a "football" choice. But to enter into an agreement with schools it considers peers academically just sounds better, even with the lesser effect as to Pool A and Pool B. Pure conjecture on my part but it's plausible.

[ADL70]

East:
Allegheny
Hiram
Oberlin
Wooster
Kenyon
Case
Carnegie Mellon

West:
Ohio Wesleyan
Denison
Wittenberg
Wabash
DePauw
Wash U.
Chicago

The winner of the East and West would get AQs. That would be six conference games within your division. How the rest of the schedule broke out would have to be decided. I would think playing either two or three teams from the other division (leaving one or two non-conference games). Having a championship game would be really cool for Div. III, but not sure how you could get that as long as there is a bye week.

I see you've already written Earlham out.  With DePauw in place of Earlham the West would seem the tougher conference.  The three Central Ohio teams (OWU, Denison, and Kenyon) could rotate between the two conferences every four years

I presume this is a football only idea.  The UAA schools aren't likely to leave in sports that have AQ already.

NEFC has 16 teams, but only one AQ.  The Middle Atlantic managed to divide itself into Commmonwealth and Freedom Conferences, for all but football (only 8 teams play football), and each gets an AQ.  I'm not familiar enough with the NCAA rules to know if the rules that permitted that to happen (1999), would allow the NCAC to split in two now.  I suspect this would be treated as one new conference and one old, with the new conference having to go thru the two-year waiting period.

Your thoughts Ralph?

I recently learned that the Centennial Conference (to which former UAA member Johns Hopkins belongs) approached the football UAA teams before Rochester left for the Liberty League about a schedule agreement similar to what was reached with NCAC.

[wally_wabash]

As for reasons to do this, the two biggest reasons are increasing the number of NCAC schools in postseason play, and increasing the odds of making the playoffs for every team involved. With maybe the possible exception of Wabash, what NCAC team wouldn't want to improve their chances of an automatic bid from 1 in 10 to 1 in 7? Plus, the four UAA schools (plus DePauw) would enhance the academic reputation of the conference, not hurt it. I'm not even a big fan of the large conferences in Div. I, but I think it would only enhance the NCAC in football, and frankly, the NCAC needs some enhancing.

I believe that the NCAC would be enhanced greatly with the addition of DePauw and the subtraction of Earlham.  With respect to football specifically, the league would be losing a team that has little interest in competing at the top for one that would be instantly contending for a league championship.  The NCAC would then house four really strong programs (the W's and DePauw), and then should Allegheny and OWU ever get things straightened out that number of quality teams could go even higher.  That one move, I really believe, would make the league better by a ton.  Better even than the addition of any or all of the UAAs. 

One more point about a conference championship game...that would by necessity have to happen in week 11 which displaces the Monon Bell Game.  I'm pretty sure the playing the Monon Bell game during any week that isn't the last week of the regular season would force the universe to collapse on itself and nobody wants that.   

[Ralph Turner]

East:
Allegheny
Hiram
Oberlin
Wooster
Kenyon
Case
Carnegie Mellon

West:
Ohio Wesleyan
Denison
Wittenberg
Wabash
DePauw
Wash U.
Chicago

The winner of the East and West would get AQs. That would be six conference games within your division. How the rest of the schedule broke out would have to be decided. I would think playing either two or three teams from the other division (leaving one or two non-conference games). Having a championship game would be really cool for Div. III, but not sure how you could get that as long as there is a bye week.

I see you've already written Earlham out.  With DePauw in place of Earlham the West would seem the tougher conference.  The three Central Ohio teams (OWU, Denison, and Kenyon) could rotate between the two conferences every four years

I presume this is a football only idea.  The UAA schools aren't likely to leave in sports that have AQ already.

NEFC has 16 teams, but only one AQ.  The Middle Atlantic managed to divide itself into Commmonwealth and Freedom Conferences, for all but football (only 8 teams play football), and each gets an AQ.  I'm not familiar enough with the NCAA rules to know if the rules that permitted that to happen (1999), would allow the NCAC to split in two now.  I suspect this would be treated as one new conference and one old, with the new conference having to go thru the two-year waiting period.

Your thoughts Ralph?

I recently learned that the Centennial Conference (to which former UAA member Johns Hopkins belongs) approached the football UAA teams before Rochester left for the Liberty League about a schedule agreement similar to what was reached with NCAC.

I prefer the UAA to sponsor the sport and arrange to fill the required slots with affiliates, which they did not do.

I think that their success in Pool B has occurred by the current NCAC arrangement, giving them a good in-region record and an acceptable OWP/OOWP.

I don't think they are likely to move out of Pool B at this time.  Pool B looks soft in 2009 and 2010 due to the presence of the ECFC and the UMAC/SLIAC counting towards the Pool B allocation of bids.  Those 2 bids leave for Pool A/C in 2011.  The UMAC/SLIAC is 10-11 schools, and the ECFC will be 8 schools (maybe more if Morrisville moves to the ECFC in 2010).  One other thing to consider in Pool B is how quickly we see any changes in the USA South with Huntingdon/LaGrange and Shenandoah/CNU, and the E8.

As for the MAC, the MAC operated as three different conferences in one.  Freedom and Commonwealth served those sports where the minimum 7 teams could earn an AQ.  The "MAC" hosted those sports such as swimming where "AQ's" were not awarded or there were not sufficient teams to have two AQ's, e.g., football.  The MAC has been a very sophisticated operation at maximizing access to post-season bids.

Pool B is very fluid at this time.

[wabco]

Wally

With Oberlin out, DePauw in and a conference playoff determination game in ... the Wabash / DePauw game would/could still be the last game of the "regular season".  A team would have to qualify for a playoff determination game ... which is the same genre as the first game of the playoffs ... it is simply a sub/playoffs game.

[wally_wabash]

Wally

With Oberlin out, DePauw in and a conference playoff determination game in ... the Wabash / DePauw game would/could still be the last game of the "regular season".  A team would have to qualify for a playoff determination game ... which is the same genre as the first game of the playoffs ... it is simply a sub/playoffs game.

That's certainly a fair way to look at it, wabco. 

I guess I just don't quite understand the need for conference championship games in Division III.  I loathe conference championship games in Division I, but I get them.  It's a giant money grab and that's fine because that's how major college football works.  But in Division III, there's just not a good reason for it.  If there was an expansion to 14 teams the chances of a team to make the playoffs are less and even in the instance that each division would get a bid (I don't believe that this would be the case), then what's the point of an extra game between two teams that are already qualified?  Why not just label the divisions as two different conferences and have them each be conference champions?  The extra game is only going to serve to squash the playoff seed for the loser.