FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[bleedpurple]

The problem is that no one can match Whitewater score for score. The way to beat Whitewater is to get the ball first, keep it, and never let go of it even if they stop you on fourth down. Super glue it to the linemen.

+k for making me laugh.

As a UWW backer, I wish there were more Witt fans here. Looking at the statistics, Witt has obviously had a fantastic season. Witt/Bash must be a great rivalry! It is good to see the respect you show one another. For anyone interested, I started a UWW blog (for some of us, it's hard to get enough UWW football). Anway, the first post is a preview of the Wittenberg Tigers. Actually, for NCAC fans, the "Bet U Didn't Know" section is probably something you are well aware of! Here's the link: http://uwwfootball.blogspot.com/

Any Witt fans, I hope you can make it to the Perk on Saturday. Lots of tailgating and beer is allowed! 

[BayernFan]

Hey I was gonna post and ask how long the UAA/NCAC agreement lasts.  I have no problem with the UAA, but I think it would be cool to get some variety.  Will Wabash ever play Case or CM during the season? Or is that too far?

Will Wabash ever play Albion or Hope again?

Speaking of conference members...... I understand that the Wabash joining the NCAC was a good thing for Wabash.  Just as DPU joining SCAC was good for them.  FIFTEEN YEARS AGO.

And every now and then, someone pops off a mention as to the rumor that the NCAC would like to get rid of Wabash. 

So my question is this...... has D3 football in the state of Indiana improved enough to support another ICAC?  An ICAC that can be competitive nationally and have Pool C respect from time to time?

[BayernFan]

My thinking is that a new ICAC could have Wabash, DePauw, Franklin,  and Trine.  Add say four other Indiana schools ( say Hanover, Rose, Earlham, and Anderson.... or really take your pick... plenty to choose from).

Is the deal breaker academic standing?  Cuz it seems to me that it would be a tough football conference that could stand on its own against the rest of them.

[maripp2002]

Pretty much, the deal breaker is academic reputation. The SCAC and NCAC are home to some of the most elite academic institutions in the country. I think that is the whole reason Wabash and Depauw got out of the ICAC to begin with. It isn't that the other schools are not good schools, they just don't have the same academic reputations etc. If for any reason the NCAC were to drop Wabash (which I just don't see happening) I couldn't see Wabash joining the HCAC or anything like that. At worst they would be an independent for a while before joining up again but not in the HCAC, maybe CCIW, or a whole new pool-a conference with some others sitting in the midwest.

[smedindy]

My thinking is that a new ICAC could have Wabash, DePauw, Franklin,  and Trine.  Add say four other Indiana schools ( say Hanover, Rose, Earlham, and Anderson.... or really take your pick... plenty to choose from).

Is the deal breaker academic standing?  Cuz it seems to me that it would be a tough football conference that could stand on its own against the rest of them.

I don't think there's any way the NCAC would jettison Wabash. The academic credentials of Wabash make it an excellent fit with the mission and values of all of the NCAC members, and that's what's important to those institutions.

That's probably why they like the UAA / NCAC arrangement - since those schools are all nationally regarded institutions. No one gets into Case or Wash U. without being top notch academically, much like in the NCAC.

The issue really is that Anderson and other HCAC schools have much lower admissions standards and could theoretically recruit players Wabash and DPU couldn't touch.

[DPU3619]

What you two guys said, plus the fact that it'll be many, many moons before any of those lower tier Indiana schools follow DePauw into a conference after what they did in the original ICAC. 

[wally_wabash]

Look at the players that Wabash and DPU have and look at the players that Anderson has.  I'm definitely willing to believe that these institutions are recruiting different kinds of players, but probably in exactly the opposite way you are hypothesizing, smeds. 

I don't get why it's such a great thing that the football programs of various academically prestigious schools play each other.  We're talking about football here.  We don't get bonus points in a football game based on the average SAT of incoming freshmen.  We don't get bonus points based on how well regarded our model UN teams are.  I'm certainly not discounting the importance of the scholarly pursuits.  But we're talking about football...I'd rather see Wabash getting the opportunity to measure their football team against other good football teams.  We don't get do that very often as the schedule is currently constructed.  CWRU doesn't get to do that at all.  There's a place where schools play football exclusively with other academically elite schools and that's all they care about...and that place is the NESCAC.  What the NESCAC does suits their institutions and their student athletes just fine.  But I don't think that's what any of us want.  I think all of us here want to see our teams be the absolute best...and to get there, our teams need the periodic measuring stick.  One measuring stick is the playoffs.   That might not be frequent enough.  We could add the frequency of these measuring sticks by having some added choice in non-con scheduling. 

[maripp2002]

wally, in many ways I agree with your statement. BUT, we play in D3 football for that exact reason, we could play against Notre Dame, Purdue, Indiana (just like we did in the early 20th century) but we decided we wanted to play with "someone our own size" and academic values.  I don't neccesarily think the NCAC or WIAC or any other conference does anything other than play football against similar institutions, with similar values for academics and athletics.

I agree we could use some more tough out of conference games, but we also have to put this in perspective. If you're a HS athlete coming out and looking at a conference you tend to think apples to apples oranges to oranges. It is part of the reason Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Rice, and Duke have faired so poorly in their respective conferences in D1. Even scheduling out of conference there are a number of great schools with similar academic standards to measure against. For the NCAC: Depauw, UAA schools, St. Olaf, Wheaton, IWU, and K-Zoo are all schools that are academically competive and in football competive conferences.

A conference is as much an educational group as it is an athletic group. Especially at the D3 level. With scholar-athletes in that order, you don't want to be competing week in and week out with teams that put more emphasis on some other aspect. Beyond that, I think keeping like academic institutions together helps with recruiting. If you are looking for a prestigous liberal arts college then you know where to look: NESCAC, NCAC,SCAC. If you are looking for public universities you know to look to the WIAC. You get the point. That way it helps to self identify the kind of kids you are looking for by the conference you are part of.

[smedindy]

Look at the players that Wabash and DPU have and look at the players that Anderson has.  I'm definitely willing to believe that these institutions are recruiting different kinds of players, but probably in exactly the opposite way you are hypothesizing, smeds. 

I don't get why it's such a great thing that the football programs of various academically prestigious schools play each other.  We're talking about football here.  We don't get bonus points in a football game based on the average SAT of incoming freshmen.  We don't get bonus points based on how well regarded our model UN teams are.  I'm certainly not discounting the importance of the scholarly pursuits.  But we're talking about football...I'd rather see Wabash getting the opportunity to measure their football team against other good football teams.  We don't get do that very often as the schedule is currently constructed.  CWRU doesn't get to do that at all.  There's a place where schools play football exclusively with other academically elite schools and that's all they care about...and that place is the NESCAC.  What the NESCAC does suits their institutions and their student athletes just fine.  But I don't think that's what any of us want.  I think all of us here want to see our teams be the absolute best...and to get there, our teams need the periodic measuring stick.  One measuring stick is the playoffs.   That might not be frequent enough.  We could add the frequency of these measuring sticks by having some added choice in non-con scheduling. 

The athletic conference and athletic philosophy is so much more than just this one sport, especially at D-3. The GLCA schools in the NCAC feel at home with Wittenberg and Hiram, probably not so much with Anderson or Manchester.

In D-1, yes, you have conferences being formed and reshaped for the benefit of one sport (hello, Big East for hoops and ACC for football) and to get entree into the tournaments no matter the geography (to wit, the Great West, which has a revolving membership depending on the sport of Cal Poly, Chicago State, Houston Baptist, New Jersey Tech, North Dakota, South Dakota, Southern Utah, Texas Pan-Am, UC Davis, and Utah Valley State). But historically that wasn't the case - even outliers that seemingly are ill-fit for certain conferences (Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt) were very much competitive and fit well when the conference was formed originally.

In D-3, conferences tend to make more sense, even the sport specific conferences or the associate members. They're not calling DePaul and Marquette part of the East, Denver part of the Sun Belt, or New Jersey part of the Great West. Yeesh.

[Raider 68]

The problem is that no one can match Whitewater score for score. The way to beat Whitewater is to get the ball first, keep it, and never let go of it even if they stop you on fourth down. Super glue it to the linemen.

There is only one team that can match UWW score for score and that is Mount Union. Witt's defense must make some big plays to stay in the game, since their offense cannot match UWW.

[wally_wabash]

The athletic conference and athletic philosophy is so much more than just this one sport, especially at D-3. The GLCA schools in the NCAC feel at home with Wittenberg and Hiram, probably not so much with Anderson or Manchester.

In D-1, yes, you have conferences being formed and reshaped for the benefit of one sport (hello, Big East for hoops and ACC for football) and to get entree into the tournaments no matter the geography (to wit, the Great West, which has a revolving membership depending on the sport of Cal Poly, Chicago State, Houston Baptist, New Jersey Tech, North Dakota, South Dakota, Southern Utah, Texas Pan-Am, UC Davis, and Utah Valley State). But historically that wasn't the case - even outliers that seemingly are ill-fit for certain conferences (Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt) were very much competitive and fit well when the conference was formed originally.

In D-3, conferences tend to make more sense, even the sport specific conferences or the associate members. They're not calling DePaul and Marquette part of the East, Denver part of the Sun Belt, or New Jersey part of the Great West. Yeesh.

Whoa, whoa, whoa...I'm not at all talking about reforming a conference around football.  I'm not even talking about reforming a conference at all (I'm for the addition of DePauw, but only now that Earlham is history...I've never advocated giving one of the other NCAC teams the boot in order to get DePauw or W&J or anybody else in).  What I am talking about is finding better games to play.  In other sports, this issue isn't nearly as big of a deal.  With a 25 game hoops schedule, you get to play your conference opponents, and you can schedule some non-cons against the other brainiacs, and then you can also schedule a few games that provide the kind of measuring stick challenge that I'm talking about here.  There's enough room to fulfill all of these things in the schedules of other team sports.  But in football, there are only 10 games.  7 of those games are against NCAC teams (which I think fulfills the "let's play against like minded academic instiutions" criteria...that's why we're in the league in the first place).  One game is against DPU because it always has been and always will be.  The other two games are Wabash's choice...or at least they should be.  I no longer see the benefit in using those two games to play teams that don't do anything positive for the program.  When Wabash plays Chicago and WUStl, I'm not watching that game thinking "gee, isn't this great that two well respected academic instiutions can set the books down for a few hours and enjoy a game of tackle football"...no, I'm thinking "I hope to all things holy nobody gets hurt in this boatrace because Witt is here in two weeks."  Those games, Wabash doesn't need.

wally, in many ways I agree with your statement. BUT, we play in D3 football for that exact reason, we could play against Notre Dame, Purdue, Indiana (just like we did in the early 20th century) but we decided we wanted to play with "someone our own size" and academic values.  I don't neccesarily think the NCAC or WIAC or any other conference does anything other than play football against similar institutions, with similar values for academics and athletics.

I agree we could use some more tough out of conference games, but we also have to put this in perspective. If you're a HS athlete coming out and looking at a conference you tend to think apples to apples oranges to oranges. It is part of the reason Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Rice, and Duke have faired so poorly in their respective conferences in D1. Even scheduling out of conference there are a number of great schools with similar academic standards to measure against. For the NCAC: Depauw, UAA schools, St. Olaf, Wheaton, IWU, and K-Zoo are all schools that are academically competive and in football competive conferences.

A conference is as much an educational group as it is an athletic group. Especially at the D3 level. With scholar-athletes in that order, you don't want to be competing week in and week out with teams that put more emphasis on some other aspect. Beyond that, I think keeping like academic institutions together helps with recruiting. If you are looking for a prestigous liberal arts college then you know where to look: NESCAC, NCAC,SCAC. If you are looking for public universities you know to look to the WIAC. You get the point. That way it helps to self identify the kind of kids you are looking for by the conference you are part of.

Obviously, Matt, Wabash isn't going to be playing D-Is.  Wabash stopped doing that even decades before the NCAA classifications became official in 1973.  I think playing our NCAC schedule, plus DPU, plus a couple of other top-half teams from other D3 leagues is more than acceptable, even if those other two teams don't have Chicago's academic pedigree.  Again, we're not taking LSATs, we're playing football.  And as you mentioned, there are schools out there that don't slouch with the academics and have good football teams...IWU and Wheaton to name a couple.  Wabash should have the freedom to pursue those opportunities. 

[smedindy]

But here's the question - how can Wabash (unique since they never schedule week 1) achieve what Wally wants without denigrating itself to play schools with lesser quality football AND lesser academics?

I can see this: Albion, Hope, Rose, Hanover...maybe Franklin and Trine if we want to bend some on academics. But who's to say in 2012 that Wash U or Chicago won't be better than Franklin or Trine or Rose?

[wally_wabash]

...if we want to bend some on academics...

Wabash doesn't have to bend their academics at all to play any of these other teams in Division III.  Wabash can be academically rigorous AND also play a football game against any other Division  III school (all of them, btw, operate on the same non-scholarship, STUDENT-athlete principle that we do).  Are we really so elitist that we shouldn't consider playing a football game against a school just because they aren't in the right tier according to USNWR?  One of our own NCAC teams is going to play (gasp!) a PUBLIC school this weekend!  Let's hope to God nobody actually sees it...would hate one of our own to be seen with that kind of riff-raff. 

I mean seriously, that's how ridiculous this sounds. 

[gobash83]

While I am not as critical of the NCAC/UAA agreement as others, I do wish we had some more flexibility when it comes to our two other non-conference games besides DPU.  I think that it would be great if Wabash could have a home and home with Hampden-Sydney or have a mini "bowl-like" trip over fall break to a school in another region.  I am sure we could easily list a couple of dozen schools that would be interesting opponents for various reasons.  

At a minimum, it would be nice if the pairings were shuffled occasionally.

[Raider 68]

Looks like the general consensus is that Wittenberg will be smashed by UWW. Does anyone have a much differing opinion or insight that indicates that Witt can win?