FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[wabco]

formerd3db
in your last post you remarked that Hope is experiencing the same down period (my words) as OWU is experiencing.  As a Michigan person, I follow Hope as well as the other members of the conference.  I agree that Hope appears to have fallen significantly from the Smith period ... when games against Wabash and DePauw were played between outstanding teams and fun to watch and experience.  I have seen several Hope home games since then and it seems just not the same (again, my thoughts ... watching fans, players and the like).  Am I wrong?  Abd, if there is something causing this change ... what is it from your perspective?  It just seems that Trine simply should not have it as easy in the conference with the football traditions of Hope, Albion, Alma, and Adrian.

And ... on a different topic ... Wabash players called upon to stand up ... certainly did so. With significant Michigan contribution - of course - the "Bs" ... Birk and Burish.  I believe with others getting healed and back ... we may just be peaking at the right time.  If you are going to be the best you have to beat the best. WAF

[Ryder16]

I think an important item we are forgetting is this little scrum is the difference in facts and opinions. much of what is expressed on this boards is opinion; for example: "wabash will win the national title the next 7 years" as much as the lil giants want it to be fact, this is an opinion. " Wooster is the best football team in the NCAC" is an opinion ( although I wish it was true).  an example of a fact is OWU's record is 0-7. from an administration point of view, opinions of friends or foes cannot really be considered, and in order to remove all or part of the current regime, more details must move from the opinion realm, ( people are quitting on the team ) to the fact realm ( XX # of people have quit this season)... those are the numbers that administrators will look at; those are the numbers that may get things moving in the right direction. and trust me, you'd be suprised the number of important people from NCAC administrations who read this board, many do not post, but quite a few look from time to time.

[skunks_sidekick]

As an Ohioan, but a well-documented Mount fan, I will offer this "outsiders" view of the current situation at OWU. 

First and foremost, there MUST be a coaching change.  If you check with programs that have made such a change, and experienced IMMEDIATE positive results, the principles/people involved in those situations will be strong advocates of said change.  I would reference Heidleberg, CWRU, and Capital (when Collins was there) as close-to-home examples of what a postive and charasmatic head coach can do for a program. 

Look what has happened to Capital since Collins has left (some say because of what the administration was doing).  They went from a team that was able to compete with the best of the best, to a mediocre OAC team. 

There truly has to be strong support from the administration to help said dynamic head coach get things moving in the right direction.  It can truly be a win-win situation for the school, football program, and community when this convergence takes place.  The buildings, facility upgrades, and enrollment increases at Mount can be almost directly attributed to the success of Larry Kehres and the football program.  Oh....it doesn't hurt to have 240 kids/students on said football team.

My less than two cents....

[OWUapologist]

Eagle, you have my support with regards to OWU.  Interesting that an OWU coach sent you an email berating you for your posts.  Would like to think they are more professional than that.  Apparently some feelings have been hurt in Delaware.

The Bishop, come on man.  Time to take off the red/black attack colored glasses.  There is absolutely no excuse for the OWU football team to have 0 wins this year.  The athletic program is better than that.  The job is not getting done, it's that simple.  Whether it's the scheme being run, the lack of players which equals poor recruiting, the lack of motivation, etc, it all points back to coaching.  They are responsible for all the things just mentioned.  Sorry if feathers are ruffled but let's call a spade a spade.  OWU's record in this decade is 48-59.  They have only had 3 seasons above .500 in the last 10 years and have not had a winning season since 2005 and currently have 12 wins since 2005.  That's 2.4 wins per year.  Of course that number will go up with a couple wins to end the year.  That is not even close to acceptable.  If you were only going to win 20% of your cases, I don't think you would remain at your firm.

I have no ill will towards the coaching staff.  I just want to see the program be successful and competitive again.  Is that too much to ask?

[The_Bishop]

If you were only going to win 20% of your cases, I don't think you would remain at your firm.

I teach now, but a different discussion for a different day.  And, if the success rate of my cases was only 20%, my hope would be that my superiors looked at not only the result, but preparation, work ethic, and attitude.  Probably not the best analogy as it relates to the football program, but the numbers are a part of the equation.

[wally_wabash]

If you were only going to win 20% of your cases, I don't think you would remain at your firm.

I teach now, but a different discussion for a different day.  And, if the success rate of my cases was only 20%, my hope would be that my superiors looked at not only the result, but preparation, work ethic, and attitude.  Probably not the best analogy as it relates to the football program, but the numbers are a part of the equation.

I can work hard, prepare hard, and have the rosiest attitude in the history of man, but if I blow up my employer's lab, I can promise you that I would be jobless.  This is a fact, btw. 

I think the program could benefit from implementing a full JV schedule like it once had.  I'm not sure if they had any games this year, but it would be good to suit up as many non-starters from the varsity squad as possible for JV games against Witt, Capital, Wooster, and any other schools within a reasonable driving distance.  As brutal the Tuesday practice can be for these players who play a full game the previous day, it's beneficial to get them some game experience.

You're right...a JV team with a handful of games would be a positive move.  But who would play in those JV games?  The upperclassmen that get their Saturday PT ripped when Coach H decides to flush the season after starting 0-2? 

[bashbrother]

It's a tough situation all the way around.   I have the sames thing going on with my 2nd Team... the Washington State Cougars.   Where losing less badly these days is progress.    and playing a Div 1AA school a little better than CC's Drake Bulldogs are our only victory.

[nike]

I saw OWU twice in 2005 when they went 7-3.  They had a great freshman class and I thought they had turned the corner, so to speak, for the next few years at least.  The following year many of those freshmen were gone, as well as upperclassmen who were still enrolled in school, but chose not to play.  Know that for a fact.  Football is supposed to be fun in college and the relationships with teammates are even more important in the long run.  I am still close to many of them, even more so than high school.  
If football is not fun at OWU, losing or not, then those young men will let down and walk away. I suspect it has not been fun for a while.  
I thought Hiram would be OWU's biggest game this year, but this Saturday certainly comes close.
Just waiting for Witt-Wabash.

[formerd3db]

wabco:

This is in reply to your question.  I agree with you regarding that "it just isn't like the good old days" when Hope played Wabash and DePauw on a regular basis.  Those were some very good, tough games and all the teams those 3 schools had when they played each other made for some good football.

Several of us has discussed several times in past months on our MIAA board the various reasons why the football programs at Hope , and for that matter, the other MIAA schools with the exception of Trine obviously these past 3 years, have declined.  You perhaps missed some of that, although I would not have expected you to have seen those discussions.  I will try to summarize that here without "writing a book"! (as I sometimes tend to do )

Some of the MIAA schools are extremely expensive (Hope, Kazoo, Albion are at the top of the list) and that does hurt recruiting, although people can argue legitemately that is no different than many other DIII schools and particularly those in Ohio in the OAC (and some in your IN) which, in many cases are $10,000 more per year than Hope is.  While that does hurt some recruiting and academic standards have been made a little tougher to get in to Hope for example - they were always high, but Hope with now over 3200 enrollment doesn't have that problem in attracting students and, as such, they can be much more selective.

However, the bottom line consensus by most of the coaching staffs in the MIAA (and at Hope) is that we lose out in recruiting to the many DII schools in Michigan and the GLIAC.  Even being able to offer a "1/2 ride athletic scholarship" or a 1/3 grant is without a doubt the key point for many student-athletes and certainly helpful to their parents in the financial aspect, for those families who could not otherwise afford going to Hope (and assuming that prospective recuit isn't able to secure or qualify for an academic scholarshiop or a community scholarshiop,etc., that would bring down their overall cost to be in line with that at a DII school for their families).

Some people might argue that this situation is no different for some of the Ohio schools since there are more DII schools (or NAIA schools that can now offer partial football scholarships) in that region and I am not doubting that might have some effect.  However, most of those DIII schools (although obviously not all) still seem to be able to recruit more volume of better players .  Yet, I can tell you that many of the coaching MIAA coaching staffs (and particularly Hope's) truly believe this DII aspect to have affected their talent pool in the past decade.  I believe that as well.  Unless a family can really afford a Hope and assuming the academic track that they are interested in as well as Hope's campus and atmosphere is the ultimate "fit" for them, we are loosing out on some of those upper tier players that we used to get "back in those days".  I am not sure what the "remedy" is for trying to improve that.

Regarding Trine, I have heard people say that for some reason, the don't have as much of that type of recuriting problem in IN since not as many DII schools as nearby as those arouind the other MIAA schools, although for sure, Trine has to, compete with all the IN DIII schools for some of the same talent.   As far as improving to the "next level" to advance in the DIII playoffs, I've always believeed that you need to play tough non-conference games to improve your program over the years.  Hope, as you know, has done that the past several years, but for some reason, it has not helped us in that way.  It did "way back when" when I played as we did play some DII schhols on occasion, as well as DePauw, Wabash as you already know and have stated.  But...that topic is actually a different aspect than the recruiting issue. Nonetheless, I thought I'd mention it anyway since it is somewhat tangential.

Anyway, I hope that provides you with some info as to the situation "up this way" as some of us have seen it. (Sorry, it looks like I couldn't refrain from a longer explanation - but I guess that's why I received an A- in my writing class at Hope "many moons ago" )    

[evacuee]

In reference to people quitting OWU football, I got there in fall 1994 along with about 15 freshman running backs.  OWU was running a three back set at the time.  There were a total of 3, count them, 3 non-freshman running backs on the team at the time.  That should give you an idea about how many people stick with the program there.  That was right at the end of Hollway's most consistent few years.

I looked past it and had a really great freshman year because what choice did I have?  Still, I knew something was terribly wrong with that.  I later found out why so many guys quit because I became one of them and finished my eligibility elsewhere.  There were also only 8 seniors that year and every freshman class had been fifty or more for years. 

He can have a great recruiting class as often as he wants but he'll only retain a small fraction and he'll have to start freshmen every year. 

[aueagle]

Re: Bishop loss to Gheny
Sr LB  Pete Merkle had 10 tackles and a INT
Sr LB Chad Murawski had 7 tackles
Those 2 play their guts out ALL the time...
Frosh Fullback Jermar Rayford set a school receiving record w/16...
That's a lot of balls out of the backfield
Punting was at 39.8 yds....(long of 56)..much better from the games I saw..
Ryder16: No surprise here...NCAC Admin/Coach's and don't forget the players...
In Sept. I saw my buddy (Ohio HS coach) and he told me his guys read the posts too....

[The_Bishop]

Interesting to hear you complain about the program, TU2698, given that you started the entire season as a freshman running back in '94 and yet "knew something was terribly wrong with that."  Just about every one of the running backs were surprised that you started, but you ran the offense better than any of them, practiced hard, and brought a good attitude to the team.  In short, you earned the starting position.  I don't remember you complaining about anything back then, yet you seem to omit this fact altogether in your last post (and all of your posts, for that matter).  I suspect that the underclassmen who have started and/or received solid playing time earned that as well, versus a conscious decision to "flush the season after starting 0-2."

[wally_wabash]

The_Bishop-

My point, and probably the point of many who are on the thread right now, is that you can't win with primarily freshmen and sophomores.  Where are the conference champs that rely almost entirely on freshmen and sophomores?  They don't exist.  If OWU can't retain a significant amount of players beyond the first two years, then OWU will not win.  If H has a great class of freshmen playing this year who are taking their lumps now and he sticks with them for 2-3 years and gives an experienced team a chance to compete, they may have a chance.  The thing is...there's zero evidence that this is how the guy operates.  The Bishops lose a couple of games and they go into "let's give the freshmen a look" mode.  Can't build a winner that way. 

[formerd3db]

The_Bishop:

Allow me to ask you this.  Since you seem to be questioning some of these other people's connection to the OWU program that would qualify them to critique the program, aside from your right to opine your own opinion (of which they have also, of course), it is only fair that you be asked to share with everyone what connection to the program (in any way whether a former player, coach, prof, or just fan) qualifies you likewise to opine your critiques regardless of pro or con?
Enlighten all of us please!

[The_Bishop]

Former player.