FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[wally_wabash]

My fuzzy math tells me the Tigers  had 1585.7 per game.....
Trine, Sewanee & RHIT put 2400, 2500, 2500 in Blackstock...

Do those numbers sound legit to you?  These sound like generous esitmates to me.  I saw a photo of the stands at DPU right before that Trine game...and lets just say that unless about 1500 people showed up after kickoff, there's no way that 2400 people watched that game.  But let's say DPU's numbers are legit.  1585 per game lands them between Denison and Oberlin on the NCAC attendance list.  1585 per game for an undefeated league champion?  1585 per game for one of the best teams in school history?  That's not a very good number. 

The DPU seniors are the ones that will be hurting but they still have "B" and "C" possibilities, so the playoffs are not out of the question. If they have just one loss I can't see them being excluded unless weird things happen and they won't be excluded if they *shudder* go undefeated.

Never count them out.

Wesley rules the Pool B roost and with the number of Pool B's getting trimmed to just one next year, it's going to be difficult for DePauw to wrestle that tournament invite away from the Wolverines.  Maybe if they finish with one loss they get into a pool C conversation...but then it becomes a matter of being regionally ranked (do we even know what region DPU will be in next year? let's presume North) and one loss DPU is still likely to wind up behind one loss CCIW and OAC and maybe even one loss Chicago/CWRU.  It's a tough road for DPU to make the playoffs next year without an AQ to aim for. 

And let's not forget that DPU is losing a ton of seniors from this team.  Unofficially, I believe that number is 74.  The Wabash fans here ought to know from very recent experience how difficult it is to not miss a beat when replacing that many seniors at so many key positions.

With all of that said, DPU has overacheived in the last 5-6 years from my perspective.  The revolving door at head coach has been bordering ridiculous.  And not just with the amount of changes that have gone on there, but the circumstances behind those changes haven't always been pleasant...yet DPU's players have managed to piece together a string of pretty good years despite all of that background noise when most, self included, thought that they would faceplant.  It'll be an interesting year for DePauw football...I don't really care how many games they win or lose, just as long as Wabash is better on 11/12.

[formerd3db]

wally:

Are you saying/suggesting then that DePauw is being dishonest and "padding" their attendance figures for those games?  I checked the box scores on DePauw's football website and those are the official attendance listings for those games.  With all due respect, I realize you are entitled to your opinion and you are stating your belief from what you observe from the photo as you say, however, you need to be careful if you are alleging charges of the same; unless you have some evidence to suggest otherwise. Just some further thoughts on this.

[wally_wabash]

wally:

Are you saying/suggesting then that DePauw is being dishonest and "padding" their attendance figures for those games?  I checked the box scores on DePauw's football website and those are the official attendance listings for those games.  With all due respect, I realize you are entitled to your opinion and you are stating your belief from what you observe from the photo as you say, however, you need to be careful if you are alleging charges of the same; unless you have some evidence to suggest otherwise. Just some further thoughts on this.

"Official attendance" and an "accurate attendance" are probably two different things.  And that's not just a swipe at DePauw...I'm pretty sure this happens in a LOT of places.  In fact, I'll confess to having seen some Wabash attendance numbers that seemed a touch off here and there.  It isn't a big deal, was just noting that really round numbers like 2500 and 2400 and 550 are little too convenient to be an accurate head count. 

[aueagle]

When I looked at the Tiger stats and saw "round numbers" at 2400-2500,
I thought, ok...give or take a hundred or 2...3. And like wally and many of us, I've been to games where the next day you read the paper/online and just shake your head. After the LG/Bishop game last fall, I drove down to the river to see the night-cap of Marietta & Muskingum....and those numbers just didn't match from what I saw.

[formerd3db]

wally and aueagle:

I am not questioning that not happening as I believe it does also at some places.  I was just inquiring if wally knew any evidence about those being grossly inflated numbers.  I will say, however, that I know for a fact that Hope College provides both accurate and official attendance which are one in the same there i.e. one number for both.  I've known the SID for a very long time and his are always to the exact number (you can check the Hope box scores and see that even fits your criteria of non-rounding off numbers and this goes for all the sports there).  Anyway, I was just curious.

[zed07]

For what it's worth, I have often noticed persons with "clickers" noting attendance as I have entered Wabash games.  This would indicate an honest effort to document attendance I would think.

[DPU3619]

Here's my thoughts on the wabco post:

DePauw graduates 1/3 of its team. 

This is simply not true.  I can confirm, first hand, that this information is false.

DePauw has no conference or reason to "be" next year ... other than to recruit with the "look to the future when 'we' are in the NCAC year after next".

This is basically true.  They have almost no shot at a Pool B, as we discussed a couple weeks ago.  Wesley's going to take it.  Going undefeated alone won't get you a Pool B next year.  Good plan, DePauw administration.

DePauw's coach is not magnetic as a recruiter and was hiurt by the pics of him on the sideline of the Wabash game.

Robby is the greatest recruiter I've ever been around.  Nick could really recruit.  Walker could really recruit.  I saw them both do it time and time again.  But neither is as magnetic of a personality as Robby Long.  I'm sure the sideline stuff doesn't do a lot of good, but he can sell DePauw to anybody who isn't already in a red sweater.

DePauw did itself no favors in having the pile of recruits it had at the Bell Game to see the "best DePauw team ever" perform.  (In fact did Wabash the favor as there is cross over in recruiting.)

Similar to any other lopsided Bell win/loss.  2001 was a VERY dramatic recruiting swing, including a young man who went on to be your quarterback.  The story I've always been told is that the young man was undecided until Short tipped to Casper.  2008 brought DePauw many that were leaning to Wabash.  It's a natural part of this rivalry.

DePauw administration (whatever that means) is enthusiastic about the womens' sports offerings and not football.

I've thought that for a decade.  That's certainly not something Wabash has to worry about, and I don't mean that as a joke.  Title IX isn't a concern for you.  That administration has pumped money in many other sports while football still makes their visitors dress in the utility closet.

DePauw fan base for football dried up ... witness the support when DePauw fell behind in the Bell Game and further that there was an average 800 or so for home games.

This also happens in every Bell blowout.  The Wabash stands had no more than a few dozen by game's end in 2008.  And in 1998.  DePauw's emptied quickly in '02, '05, and '06.  I don't think the fan base has "dried up".  They went through a stretch there where they didn't win 8 very often, let alone ever thinking about winning 9 or 10.  Went through 4 or 5 years where you can't beat Trinity and can't beat Wabash.  It's never been the biggest fan base to start with.  I haven't noticed a severe decline, honestly.  I'd love for the student body to show up in force and fill the stands, but that hasn't ever happened and it's probably not going to happen.  I don't think that means it has dried up. Every game I attended this season wasn't a smaller crowd that I'm used to seeing.  Certainly wasn't a sellout, but I don't think Bill Wagner is counting people 4 and 5 times over. 


In summation, I don't think the program is dying.  I think it's certainly at a crossroads.  This program will never get out of the mud if they don't go three years without firing the head coach.  I've had hunches that the administration doesn't want this to be a football school.  The student body is shifting more female, as much as 61/39 in a recent freshman class.  Maybe they don't.  I can't speak on it, but it sure looks on the surface like they do to me.

[wabco]

Wes

I was not trying to "talk smack" with my earlier email.  I just had occassion to causally meet a Dannie grad I know well, and he was with a person in the DePauw employ visiting DePauw-ites in the area.  Of course I had to mention the numbers 47 and zero. The conversation swung to sports and the items I recited in my email.  I was ... frankly ... suprised at the candor represented in what was recited to me (or else ... what may be unhappiness in the ranks and talking out od school ... for whatever reason.)

Now ... I think all Little Giants want the dannies to do well in football, also well in other sports ... just not well enough to beat us.  I am encouraged by the percentage swing to more women in the DePauw undergrad mix ... as it is a target rich enviornment for us.  (A joke.)  I also like the intiatives (generating from the leadership of both Presidents)  of the two schools working together substantively in some of the academic areas ... such as Asian studies.  Finally, I simply cannot wait till next November when Wabash ... again ... will beat the tar out of the dannies.

[wabco]

After posting my last comment with "beat the tar out" of the dannies ... I wondered concerning the origin of the phrase.  My Google search turns up "tar" as being a diminutive of "tarnation" ... with "tarnation" being a condensation of "eternal damnation".

Hence Wabash is doing DePauw a favor by "beating the tar out of them" ... as the Little Giants are thus "beating the eternal damnation" out of DePauw and ... CONCLUSION:  thereby returning them to the path of rightousness!

Npow how is that for a January snowy day analysis.

[wally_wabash]

DePauw has no conference or reason to "be" next year ... other than to recruit with the "look to the future when 'we' are in the NCAC year after next".

This is basically true.  They have almost no shot at a Pool B, as we discussed a couple weeks ago.  Wesley's going to take it.  Going undefeated alone won't get you a Pool B next year.  Good plan, DePauw administration.

This is defnitely an unfortunate byproduct of the switch, however if the cost of moving to the NCAC from the SCAC is one football season in limbo, I think it will be well worth it in the long term for DPU.  It's a hard sell to the kids on that team right now, especially the seniors, but there's a larger picture in play here. 

[cave2bens]

Here's my thoughts on the wabco post:

DePauw graduates 1/3 of its team. 

This is simply not true.  I can confirm, first hand, that this information is false.

...

In summation, I don't think the program is dying.  I think it's certainly at a crossroads.  This program will never get out of the mud if they don't go three years without firing the head coach.  I've had hunches that the administration doesn't want this to be a football school.  The student body is shifting more female, as much as 61/39 in a recent freshman class.  Maybe they don't.  I can't speak on it, but it sure looks on the surface like they do to me.

Appreciate the insight into the DPU program from two, different perspectives.  Heaven forbid that I side with a Dannie here, Wabco,  but Wes does have a point.  Per the 11/2 update of the 2010, Depauw Football website - there are 35 seniors on the roster of 108 total participants, so you were called out for a tad over 1% point (33.33 vs 32) and then perhaps some may have additional eligibility or maybe won't graduate?  Semantics and "tar."    As Wally red-lined me at post time, I also agree that the bigger picture is very bright for Depauw and the NCAC.

WAF

[bashbrother]

Congrats to Adi Pynenberg (2nd) and Tony Sutton (3rd) for the incredible honor of being selected to the D3Football.com ALL DECADE TEAM....... quite an honor for both of them in the company of some tremendous football players.........

You know it's pretty good company, when a DE that is now playing in the NFL makes third team.

Congrats to ALL for playing the sport they loved!  Celebrate D3Football!  It is how the game was meant to be played!

[smedindy]

For what it's worth, I have often noticed persons with "clickers" noting attendance as I have entered Wabash games.  This would indicate an honest effort to document attendance I would think.

If so, that's a change from the Amidon / Harris / Fendley attendance algorithm program. Really, on most home games there is enough milling around and free tickets and sometimes unwatched gates that it's a crapshoot. I do know that the algorithm knows the capacity of the home stands and usually can count the visiting stands unless it's the Bell Game or Witt. It's the milling masses that make it fun!

Or it was a playoff game where accurate attendance is a must. Or the Bell Game as well.

[DPU3619]

Wes

I was not trying to "talk smack" with my earlier email.  I just had occassion to causally meet a Dannie grad I know well, and he was with a person in the DePauw employ visiting DePauw-ites in the area.  Of course I had to mention the numbers 47 and zero. The conversation swung to sports and the items I recited in my email.  I was ... frankly ... suprised at the candor represented in what was recited to me (or else ... what may be unhappiness in the ranks and talking out od school ... for whatever reason.)

That's quite alright.  Just doing my part in letting everybody what of that is true, and what isn't.  You're fairly spot on with what your acquaintance said except for the grad rate stuff. 

My theory on the women's sports stuff goes as follows: DePauw has spent well over a decade trying to kill that Greek system, particularly the fraternities.  Those sorority girls certainly don't wear their halos 24/7 (as a few of you wallies can attest), but they cause very little trouble in the University's master plan.  DePauw doesn't want those fraternities anymore.  All they do is cause trouble and show up in the newspaper.  I know that sounds awful Animal House-ish, and it kinda is.  With that in mind, the University began reducing the number of freshman males over time, so they could essentially kill out the fraternity system by attrition.  Two of the eleven went away at he beginning of this school year.  Two more are circling the drain.  The problem with that theory is that the houses you kill aren't the houses that you're worried about.  The football house, the baseball house, and the soccer house are still going to get theirs.  I'm not singling out those particularly houses, but you sure see them in more trouble than all the others.  I think the ultimate goal is to drive the freshman away from the houses and back into University housing, where DePauw receives more money for room & board.  It's working.  Slowly but surely, it's working.  That's my theory, anyway.

Obviously, if the University admits fewer males than they have in the past, you aren't going to take in as many football players.  Now, there's an obvious counterpoint there: "Then recruit better players! Not more players!"  Well, yes, that's true, but that's also easier said than done. 

I'm not trying to make excuses here.  DePauw does need to start recruiting better players, particularly on defense.  That unit hasn't been pulling its weight for almost an entire decade.  But, I think the point that DePauw isn't giving their football program a fair shake is very well founded.  Look at what they did to Tim Rogers and Matt Walker.  "Do what we want or you're fired!" That makes it crystal clear where DePauw places the football program in its list of priorities, doesn't it?

[formerd3db]

Very interesting comments/discussion Wes.  A question from an "outsider" here; so what changed from Coach Nick M's era (both as coach and AD)?  Is it the administration that is pushing this and/or is the athletic department part of this?  Just curious.

In one sense, it is a shame that the university is trying to eliminate the fraternities.  While we all know there are some negative behavioral aspects that occur with those, on the other hand, there are still some positives.  I know at Hope, a while back (probably 5-6 years) they had some major problems with the fraternities and there was some serious discussion within the administration of eliminating the Greek system at the college.  However, with cooperation among all, most of this was cleaned up to the point where these and the sororities have returned to much of their positive contributions to the college and especially the surrounding community in various projects, fund raising for charity, etc., etc.  Of course, there are still some problems and bad behavior i.e. use of alcohol, partying, property destruction and other miscreant, debauchery and slovelent behavior ) that occurs - that will always occur by some of the few "bad apples" - however, it is not at the level it was in the past.  Of course, all of this is "cyclic" over decades as it is at any college or university.

Also, at Hope while some athletes are members of these organizations, with regard to football for example, there has traditionally been two fraternities which team players are usually members of, and each has taken its turn in being the "bad boy  frat" over the decads (it has seemed to alternate), although again, much of that has improved.  It follows that the coaching staff has also been an influence to make sure that the players, if they choose to join a fraternity, behave in a manner that does not embarrass themselves, the football program and the college, which, of course, applies just as equaly to those players who choose not to participate in the Greek system.  However, (to summarize this) in contrast to DePauw, I guess the difference at Hope is that the administration does not have a hidden agenda to do away with fraternities/sororities (at least not leaning that way as had been potentially the case a few years ago within the past decade). Nor do I see that they are trying to recruit less makes for the school as oposed to females, whether they be athletes or not (as far as I knowk, they try to get near equal numbers, but the main goal is to fill the desired limit i.e. 800 students per freshman class to keep the enrollment at just over 3200 or about 3300. Fortunately for Hope, they have not had a problem in attracting students despite the higher cost, with the exception of athletes i.e. and in regards to the economic packages in relation to the DII schools in the region as has been discused on some of the other boards.  In that regard, like DePauw, Hope needs to attract better football players as well in the context you are talking about, although there are other factors involved with that as I've mentioned.  Anyway, thanks for your comments/opinions on this topic - again, very interesting discussion you guys have.

P.S. I'd like to see the Hope/DePauw and Hope/Wabash series return sometime!