FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[ExTartanPlayer]

Though they are only pre-season polls, and these ones are written by publications that could not care less about D3 football, it is exciting to see the NCAC getting represented! Hopefully the Bishops live up to their ranking (other than on Oct. 12 of course  )

Agreed.  It's cool for the kids on the team, but as you note, the publications couldn't care less about D3 football (and it shows in their puzzling rankings, which often include either a) formerly perennial powers that are no longer so powerful, like Washington and Jefferson being ranked every year even though they haven't made a splash in the playoffs since 2008 or b) the "soup du jour" ranking like this year's OWU team; I have tremendous respect for what OWU accomplished in last season's turnaround).

By the way, I think both Wittenberg and OWU are slightly over-ranked, but hands-down the funniest over-ranking I noticed was Hardin-Simmons ranked #6 in Lindy's preseason rankings.  HSU was 6-4 last year (admittedly against a very tough schedule, two losses against legit top-5 teams...but still, four losses!), 6-4 the year before, hasn't made the playoffs since 2008, and hasn't WON a playoff game since 2000.  What?!  Ranked #6 in the nation?!

*Edited to add: lest you think I'm bashing HSU, I actually believe that HSU is traditionally a very strong program, they play in a tough conference, and I'll admit that 6-4 record is a tad deceiving because they played Linfield in a nonconference game.  Still...I could see HSU being quite good this year and not deserving of that #6 ranking.  I actually have no qualms with them around #20-25 in the preseason.

[NCAC4Life]

The Tampa Tribune recently ran a nice article on Keith Hopkins. It sounds like that young man has met some big challenges head-on and in the process has demonstrated character beyond his years. I wish him all the best in Springfield.

So when did Division III prospects start signing anything other than a tuition deposit form?

[wally_wabash]

The Tampa Tribune recently ran a nice article on Keith Hopkins. It sounds like that young man has met some big challenges head-on and in the process has demonstrated character beyond his years. I wish him all the best in Springfield.

So when did Division III prospects start signing anything other than a tuition deposit form?

They didn't, but journos everywhere, even in DIII-rich areas, often write about kids signing LOI's to play football at whatever DIII school they plan to attend.  Just one of those things. 

By the way, I think both Wittenberg and OWU are slightly over-ranked...

Perhaps.  I think Wittenberg has top ten potential.  I certainly think OWU is top 25 caliber and perhaps much higher if they can solve the red zone against good teams.  Wabash might be better than both of them (they were last year, lest we forget).  I think you'll probably see two NCAC schools in the top 25 when the legit polling happens in August and then throughout the season.  I don't know if we'll ever see three NCAC schools in the top 25 at the same time this year because it's hard for me to see enough voters convince themselves to vote for three schools from our conference.  I don't think the NCAC has had three teams with this kind of strength since Wabash joined the league.  The closest I can think of would be 2002 with Wabash and Witt both earning playoff spots and Wooster going 8-2 (Sutton's first year up there).   Prior to that you'd probably have to go back to...I want to say it was maybe 1997 when Allegheny, Witt, and Wooster were tri-champs. 

[Bishopleftiesdad]

+1 waf56, I gotta kick out of your comment.

I also think OWU is probably ranked too high by these polls. I do hope Wally is right and they are ranked in the top 20-25 in preseason. I like to think they will continue to progress and get better on the field.

[short]

Though they are only pre-season polls, and these ones are written by publications that could not care less about D3 football, it is exciting to see the NCAC getting represented! Hopefully the Bishops live up to their ranking (other than on Oct. 12 of course  )

By the way, I think both Wittenberg and OWU are slightly over-ranked,

This has got to be Wittenbberg's best team since 2000.  They return the entire Offense and most of the Defense.  Their QB is one of the best player's in D3.  I think they are ranked to low are number #7

1) Mount Union
2) MHB
3) Linfield
4) St Thomas
5) Wittenberg
6) UWW
7) Wesley
8) North Central
9) Heildelberg
10) UW Oshkosh

[ohiofan1954]

A question of Battling Bishop fans. Since the Denison game is being played at OWU this year I am assuming the start time on the bishop website is correct. However Denison shows the game as a afternoon start. Since we all know what assumption is the mother of(my favorite movie line by the way) would someone please tell me if I am correct it will be a night game. I am planning my schedule for the year and I am planning on attending an afternoon game either at Case, Hiram or Kenyon. That will change if it is a afternoon game also at OWU. Thanks in advance.

david

[sigma one]

Short, the 2000 team was fantastic.  Donaldson, Crane, Aljancic, Goldsbury, Hauser, Pope, Howard, et al.  they came into Little Giant Stadium that year.  Wabash was actually ahead briefly 10-7 in the second quarter and the fans were stoked.  Then it rained, rained, rained, and the lightening started.  The game was delayed for quite a while.  Finally, the teams were transported to Crawfordsville High School, where the field has lights, and Wittenberg found its form:  41-10.
     I'd have tp put the 2009 team there next to that earlier group.  Weber and Wayre sharing RB, Huffman, Cooper and McKee, Hurtt, Lorhman, Valery, McKinley (that, ah, "pest").  They beat Wabash 10-7, and played no other close games until their playoff defeat.  Of course, the Wabash team of 2000 and that of 2009 were far different.  The 2000 team was still young; the 2009 team had been around the NCAC longer and was pretty strong itself.  Both Tiger teams could run and pass, and both played outstanding defense.  Looking at their scores, the 2000 group scored 35 or more points 7X, the 2009 group 8X.  Not sure, really, how I personally would rank them:  1 and 1A and take your pick for #1
    But I bow to your judgment, Short, as a Wittenberg fan.  If one played the other, maybe 6 wins for the 1s and 4 for the 1As?  I don't think either would walk over the other.  Cheers.

[ExTartanPlayer]

I think both Wittenberg and OWU are slightly over-ranked

This has got to be Wittenbberg's best team since 2000.  They return the entire Offense and most of the Defense.  Their QB is one of the best player's in D3.  I think they are ranked to low are number #7.

You're certainly entitled to that opinion, but I think you're over-estimating the quality of the NCAC compared to other top-25 programs.  Wittenberg won one playoff game last year and was soundly beaten by Hobart in the round of 16; a Hobart team that was then blown out in the following round.

This is not to say that Wittenberg is not "good" - they're VERY good!  But when you're talking about a team that is ranked "too low" at #7, even making noises that they should be ranked #5, I've gotta have some reason to believe that they are the cream of the cream of the crop in Division III.  Not just a sweet-16 team, but a bona fide national title threat.

Is it hard to project exactly who else should be up there?  Of course!  I can't say with any certainty that Team X should be ranked there instead of Wittenberg; hell, no one could have foreseen UWW losing any games last year, much less falling as far as they did.  Division III football beyond Mount Union is never going to be easy to predict, and with LK leaving the sideline maybe that will even come into question someday. 

10 offensive + 7 defensive starters (according to the Heidelberg game roster, I didn't look through the entire season's worth of two-deeps) back from a sweet 16 team, while a very nice core, is not a team that is ranked "too low" at #7 in the preseason.  I'd even give you a little extra credit if Witt was coming off a long playoff run in 2011.  But the last time they won more than one playoff game was 2009, a year in which no single player on that team's roster will be on this year's roster.

I've become a pseudo-fan of the NCAC over the last few years due to the scheduling crossover and will likely continue to follow the league.  I like several of the teams.  But IMO, over the past five years, it has not demonstrated the capability of producing a bona fide top 5 team.  Wabash 2011 may have been worthy of that standing.

2012 was a fun year to watch and honestly I'm still not sure what to make of it.  OWU and Wittenberg finishing 9-1, both losing to Wabash, who in turn lost to two of the middle-tier programs.  Depending on your outlook, that's either a sign of league-wide improvement (glass half full take) or a sign that Wabash was the best "big game" team in the league who merely struggled to remain focused (glass half empty).  I am closer to the glass half-full take, suggesting that Oberlin and Allegheny's victories over Wabash combined with Kenyon's semi-renaissance were a sign that the league as a whole is raising its game, but still skeptical that the league champion will be playing in the quarterfinals.  If so, my hat is off to them.

[wabco]

Ex Tartan

I watched the several Wabash games.  It is the second.  In 2012, Wabash was a great big game team with lots of talent which struggled to remain focused with/against decent second tier teams ... which teams were UP for their big game challenge.  Probably several reasons for this occurrence ... but do not believe it is a "glass half empty".  It was in fact a good learning experience (one always says that after cleaning the dirt off from making a mess of things), and I do not look for a repeat anytime soon out of Wabash.  Wabash had a good recruiting year, have real talent in the stable ... and the season should be fun with Witt and OWU and others.

I have nothing but admiration for the efforts of Gheny and Oberlin players and coaches against Wabash last year.  I have nothing but confidence in Wabash coaches and in the learned experience of Wabash Juniors and Seniors and their personal leadership to always have this year's team - as a team - focused on the task at hand.

As for rankings, I like Wabash chances against the NCAC conference. As for rivalries:  Witt will be a great great game.  AND Wabash does not even need a football to play the Dannies.  (Will be interesting ... with a DePauw decent coach and recruiter ... what the Dannies have clime up with as a freshman class along with what offense and defense using the freshmen and existing upperclassmen.  It will make for a very fine rivalry contest.

[sigma one]

Several weeks ago on another board I pointed out that in the last 3 years--'10, '11, '12--six team have appeared in the D3FB Top 25 Final Poll Top 10 all three years:  Mt. Union, Mary Hardin-Baylor, St. Thomas, Linfield, North Central, and Wesley.  Add WU Whitewater to this group because of its long run, and 7 teams have been dominant n Division III.  Also, s\during these years 10 other teams have appeared in the Final Top 10.  Each of them only once.  Clearly, there is an "elite" with others just nibbling at the edges, and reaching the top of the heap rarely.   Go through the Top 25 and a number of teams appear there almost every year, but they don't usually break through into the top group.  (I am not here suggesting that a Top 25 finish is to be dismissed; only that there is that group of 7 with the best chances to advance deep into the playoffs, playing one another near the end, one of two of them for years becoming the National Champion.  The challenge is for another team to break in, as St Thomas did three or four years ago.  (And thinking back, 10 year's ago St. John's would have been included.)
     In relation to the NCAC, Wittenberg and Wabash have traded playoff appearances for years.  (Kenyon just fell short of getting in last year without playing either Witt or Wabash.)  Last year, most everyone thought Heidelberg (OAC) would handle Wittenberg; that's not the way it turned out.  The year before, everyone thought that North Central (CCIW) would handle Wabash easily after skating through the CCIW.  That's not the way it turned out.  You can call these NCAC wins upsets, and they probably were, but they happened.  On the loss side,   Witt after Heidelberg lost to Hobart, a team on a great run.  The next week Hobart lost to St.  Thomas.  Please look where the Tommies finished and who they defeated and by what margins..  After beating North Central, Wabash lost to Mt. Union.  Please look where the Purple Raiders finished and who they defeated and by what margins.  Lest you think I am cherry picking, Wittenberg recently lost to Ohio Northern and Wabash to Illinois Wesleyan (in overtime).  ONU and IWU come from conferences most believe are among the strongest in Division III.
     So, what's my point?  Whatever the depth or lack of in the NCAC (and we are aware of it), the teams at the top have usually been as competitive as most other teams nationally outside the conference--upsets or not. And to be fair they have also lost by substantial margins in some playoff years.  I recall North Central coming to Crawfordsville wondering why they were having to play in the hinterlands. 
   2013:  Wittenberg, OWU, and Wabash might have Top-25 talent.  We will see.  They could easily knock one another around.  I don't see all three ranked in the Top 25 in the D3FB pre-season, and reasonably so.  Is one of them a Top-10 team at season's end.  Well, we will see.  Again, it's a tough group to crack.   Does Witt deserve a #7 in pre-season?  Remember whose poll that is.  I trust only the D3FB poll.  We will wait about two months to see what's what.

[Bishopleftiesdad]

+1 Sigma. Nice post. But I always enjoy your posts.

[ExTartanPlayer]

Excellent post, sigma.  You are, of course, correct, and I'm really splitting hairs - but I believe that is acceptable when we're talking about a team ranked in the top 10, or even moreso a team that is deemed to be ranked "too low" at number SEVEN in the preseason poll!

You are correct that the NCAC champion has shown admirably several times, with both Wabash and Wittenberg scoring quality playoff victories demonstrating that the conference is capable of competing in that "second tier" just below the absolute cream of the Division III crop.  Which is exactly what I'm saying: I think Wittenberg is over-ranked at #7, but I can easily see them around #10-12 in the preseason (and, to be fair, you acknowledge as much by pointing out that the poll is not the D3FB poll, which I tend to trust more than a college football magazine whose focus is not meant to be Division III ball).

My last point, re: large margins of victory in the playoffs - as you acknowledged, NCAC champs have occasionally been eliminated in lopsided blowouts, but I'll concede that is quite common in the playoffs for various reasons.  However, in my opinion your "please look at who (Team X) beat and by what margins" also illustrates just my case, that the 'ceiling' for the NCAC champion seems to be in that #10-12 range for the time being because they were blown out by a team that was blown out by a team that lost the Stagg Bowl...we're not just talking about getting blown out by the national champion, but we're talking about being at least three losses removed!  As you reference, the teams that have knocked out the NCAC champion are generally from either that elite group you've referenced above or, if not, they're a runner-up from one the best conferences in Division III such as ONU and IWU...but if the NCAC champion was truly a top-5 caliber team we'd be talking about them beating those teams rather than being knocked out by those teams.

[sigma one]

Thanks, Gentlemen.  Nice reply ExTartanPlayer.  CMU doesn't admit just anyone! 
     By the way, on the 2013 season and the "Elite 7."  Wesley's schedule this year looks brutal.  They open--4 straight weeks--with Widener, Salisbury, Mary Hardin-Baylor, and Rowan.  Then they play Birmingham-Southern and Huntingdon.  Also, on their schedule are Virginia-Lynchburg, Menlo, and Charlotte.  I don't know how these last three, all non-DIII, figure when choosing an independent team for the playoffs, when they have to be considered among a small number of other independents for a spot.  (I'm guessing not at all.) Or how having only 7 DIII games matters.  Pat or Wally Wabash or another of the fabulous DIII regional guys could tell us.  But that schedule, whoa.   Looking at past excellence, they should be a pre-season favorite in all DIII games, save MH-B.  Could that one be considered a toss up at this early date?  I don't know about the other three games.  But what a tough road, with all those teams back to back.  The breather may be the last game of the season vs. Alfred St.  They are new to DIII, and I don't know anything about them.  The danger for Wesley might be injuries or let downs along that tough road.  With a slip or two they might not make the post-season.  But if they get through, perhaps watch out.  They do return an impressive number of playoff-experienced players.
     

[D3MAFAN]

Thanks, Gentlemen.  Nice reply ExTartanPlayer.  CMU doesn't admit just anyone! 
      With a slip or two they might not make the post-season.     

Which is a shame, only if they were in a conference with that schedule, they could lose two games and still be a favorite for an at-large bid, but hey, that's the way the cookie crumbles.

[ExTartanPlayer]

Wesley has been stuck in this position for a few years as the ACFC crumbled, the number of Division III independents dwindled, and frankly the only teams willing to take them on in non-conference games have seemed to be powerful teams from AQ conferences that know they still have a way into the playoffs should they lose to Wesley.  I also think, unfortunately, that Wesley's academic reputation works against them; I have a hunch that some teams would prefer not to play a team who admits many student-athletes that their school cannot, although I strongly emphasize that is my personal hunch and is not based on any discussion with coaches or AD's.

I played against Wesley twice (2004 regular season victory and 2006 lopsided playoff defeat) and have nothing but good things to say about them as an opponent. They do a bit of excess trash talking but you can find that anywhere, and their fans were enthusiastic & generally respectful. They had a stud DE that beat me like a drum all day in that 2006 game and he was nothing but class, knocked the snot out of me then help me up afterwards type.

With that said, I can see why CMU and similar schools would not want to schedule them, because there's just not much upside from that game for any UAA school (or Pool B school from any corner of Division III). A virtual guaranteed loss for schools that have to go at least 9-1 to make the playoffs is just not attractive, no matter how much of a "we'll play anyone, anytime, anywhere" attitude your coach may have.

For their sake, I hope Wesley can get into a conference, although I think I've read that there seem to be barriers keeping them "out" of the better northeastern conferences (for example, the NJAC has a roster limit that Wesley would be hard pressed to meet). The Empire 8 and Liberty League schools may be reluctant because of the distance, that's probably an overnight trip for all of them.