FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[D3MAFAN]

I also think, unfortunately, that Wesley's academic reputation works against them; I have a hunch that some teams would prefer not to play a team who admits many student-athletes that their school cannot, although I strongly emphasize that is my personal hunch and is not based on any discussion with coaches or AD's.

A virtual guaranteed loss for schools that have to go at least 9-1 to make the playoffs is just not attractive, no matter how much of a "we'll play anyone, anytime, anywhere" attitude your coach may have.

The Empire 8 and Liberty League schools may be reluctant because of the distance, that's probably an overnight trip for all of them.

Regarding reputation, that's what is wrong with football in general, people other than the players and coaches are making the decision, its almost somewhat discriminating against teams like Wesley, however I am sure that is not the case. Which leads me to agree with your statement "we'll play anyone, anytime, anywhere" some teams pride themselves with trying to play championship ball, but eventually don't want to play championship ball until the playoffs. I often say to myself how do you think these teams expect to gain experience for playoffs. UW-Whitewater some years ago scheduled Mount Union and look where that has propelled them. Now you have teams such as Franklin and Redlands scheduling National Powerhouses as of late. It appears that in Wesley case by being regionally in the East and these eastern most conferences not allowing Wesley is somewhat troublesome to think about. I wonder why the east region gets snop come playoff time. The E8, LL, etc... have no excuse, they allowed Salisbury and Frostburg into the conferences and Wesley is actually and hour closer to these teams than Salisbury is. This political mess needs to be removed from the game we love and just play football against anyone, anytime, anywhere.

[waf56]

This political mess needs to be removed from the game we love and just play football against anyone, anytime, anywhere.

Hey, just be glad that we have a playoff system instead of the BCS!

With the number of teams that are in DIII there will always be a team somewhere that cannot find a suitable conference. This is especially true when considering that conferences do not just pertain to football, but (in general) all other sports and more importantly (at least to the NCAC) academics. I do not know much about Wesley and their plight, but I do know that all conferences are not as cut and dry as we would all like! There are just way to many things outside of football that go into a conference in DIII to make them ideal for everyone.

[D3MAFAN]

This political mess needs to be removed from the game we love and just play football against anyone, anytime, anywhere.

Hey, just be glad that we have a playoff system instead of the BCS!

With the number of teams that are in DIII there will always be a team somewhere that cannot find a suitable conference. This is especially true when considering that conferences do not just pertain to football, but (in general) all other sports and more importantly (at least to the NCAC) academics. I do not know much about Wesley and their plight, but I do know that all conferences are not as cut and dry as we would all like! There are just way to many things outside of football that go into a conference in DIII to make them ideal for everyone.

Yes, I am very glad we do not have that wannabe playoff system and GOD awful BCS...very very very thankful. However, football is football. I believe that 10 to 15 percent of Wesley incoming freshmen are student-athletest, that's where their revenue is earned. These kids do not have a clue what goes on back doors as far as instutions prestige, all they want is to go to school and play the sport they love. Some institutions preach fairness and allowing Wesley to become an affiliate just for Football wouldn't change a thing, except make the conference better in football.

[short]

I don't think the NCAC has a ceiling of 10-12!

About the Wabash vs IWU overtime game in 2009 Wabash was the 2nd place NCAC team and IWU was the CCIW Champs.  Wittenberg lost to the National Camps UWW in a one score game with 6 minutes to go in that same year finishing 6th in the country.  Wabash finished 7th in 2011, 10th in 2007, Wooster finished 10th in 2004.  In 2002 Wabash finished 7th and Wittenberg finished 10th in the AFCA poll.  Wittenberg likely had a top 10 team in 2001 beat ASC champs Hardin-Simmons and Thomas More in the playoff before fall to National Champs Mount Union, and in 2000 and 1998 only losing to National Champs Mount Union.  The NCAC is also home of 1990 National Champion Allegheny College. 

My last point, re: large margins of victory in the playoffs - as you acknowledged, NCAC champs have occasionally been eliminated in lopsided blowouts, but I'll concede that is quite common in the playoffs for various reasons.  However, in my opinion your "please look at who (Team X) beat and by what margins" also illustrates just my case, that the 'ceiling' for the NCAC champion seems to be in that #10-12 range for the time being because they were blown out by a team that was blown out by a team that lost the Stagg Bowl...we're not just talking about getting blown out by the national champion, but we're talking about being at least three losses removed!  As you reference, the teams that have knocked out the NCAC champion are generally from either that elite group you've referenced above or, if not, they're a runner-up from one the best conferences in Division III such as ONU and IWU...but if the NCAC champion was truly a top-5 caliber team we'd be talking about them beating those teams rather than being knocked out by those teams.

[wally_wabash]

Thanks, Gentlemen.  Nice reply ExTartanPlayer.  CMU doesn't admit just anyone! 
     By the way, on the 2013 season and the "Elite 7."  Wesley's schedule this year looks brutal.  They open--4 straight weeks--with Widener, Salisbury, Mary Hardin-Baylor, and Rowan.  Then they play Birmingham-Southern and Huntingdon.  Also, on their schedule are Virginia-Lynchburg, Menlo, and Charlotte.  I don't know how these last three, all non-DIII, figure when choosing an independent team for the playoffs, when they have to be considered among a small number of other independents for a spot.  (I'm guessing not at all.) Or how having only 7 DIII games matters.  Pat or Wally Wabash or another of the fabulous DIII regional guys could tell us.  But that schedule, whoa.   Looking at past excellence, they should be a pre-season favorite in all DIII games, save MH-B.  Could that one be considered a toss up at this early date?  I don't know about the other three games.  But what a tough road, with all those teams back to back.  The breather may be the last game of the season vs. Alfred St.  They are new to DIII, and I don't know anything about them.  The danger for Wesley might be injuries or let downs along that tough road.  With a slip or two they might not make the post-season.  But if they get through, perhaps watch out.  They do return an impressive number of playoff-experienced players.

It can definitely matter.  Part of the primary selection criteria is in-region win percentage.  If you've got fewer games, your one loss against 7 games hurts that percentage more than somebody's one loss against 9 or 10 games.  Now, in Wesley's case, they probably need to lose two of those games to be in trouble.  Their schedule last year was also brutal: @ETBU, @Salisbury, vs. UMHB, @Louisiana College, vs. B-SC, @Huntingdon.  That's insane, and their SOS bore that out (0.678...second best in the nation was 0.634 which is a significant difference).  Pool B will be shrinking though, and Wesley's competition for that one invitation will be going away soon (Huntingdon to the USAC, the SAA getting a seventh team takes those schools out of the mix, the UAA teams getting affiliated with Pool A leagues...basically leaves you with Wesley, Alfred State, Macalester, Southern Virginia, and the four SCAC schools as the entirety of Pool B). 

During last year's run up to selection time, there were a few weeks there where that one loss that Wesley had from early in the season loomed large with B-SC and Huntingdon lurking around out there without a blemish.  It just sort of turned out that all three of the schools played each other and the whole thing got sorted out organically, but you can envision scenarios where a committee will have to choose between a superior win percentage and a superior SOS which is never easy to predict...we've seen committees favor one over the other both ways over the years. 

[sigma one]

Thanks, Wally. Very astute and informative.  I did look at the three non-DIII games Wesley has this year.  They defeated two of those teams easily last year, and UNC-Charlotte is a brand-new program in 2013.  Wesley should win all three games easily. 
     Wesley either does not seek a conference (?) or cannot be admitted to one.  Wally, your comment about a shrinking Pool B makes me wonder what the NCAA will do when that pool shrinks to a very smalll number of teams.  The comment about conferences being about more than football is pertinent to any discussion of membership.  Look at the NCAC year after year; the conference all-sports trophy almost always goes to a team without the best football program.  And the NCAC combines men's and women's results when awarding the trophy.  Football counts no more than any other sport.  We just magnify its significance because of our personal interest.
    Short, terrific summation of recent playoff results by NCAC teams.  You show that most years the NCAC playoff team(s) is/are to be reckoned with in the early rounds.  Again, this year Ohio Wesleyan, Wabash, and Wittenberg will slug it out for conference title.  If one goes unbeaten (that will surprise me unless, frankly, its Wittenberg--don't thow a fit Wabash guys), will another be a second theam from the NCAC in the playoffs if that team loses only one game?  I've said that all three have Top-25 potential.  I am particularly interested in watching OWU inside the red zone this year.  You have to think that is a huge point of emphasis for them.  Also, Wabash's development with a new QB.  And Witt's focus after a successful 2012, and their play on the road vs. Wabash.     
     

[sigma one]

Sorry for the back-to-back posts, several hours apart.  When  I mentioned Witt going unbeaten, I meant in the NCAC.  They open with Butler, which has a lot coming back from last year's young, pretty successful team.  There was a time not long ago when DIII schools could match up with the Bulldogs.  Now ?  I can't see the Tigers defeating them, but what if they do?  By the by, Butler opens with Witt and Franklin before going on into the meat of their schedule.  Once again, Franklin takes on two big opponents the first two weeks:  Mt. Union and Butler.  They have a way of stepping out there before going on to stampede through the Heartland.  Can't imagine an NCAC team wanting to start with two like that; from now on, of course, they can't because they finally go to a full round robin. 

[Dr. Acula]

Several weeks ago on another board I pointed out that in the last 3 years--'10, '11, '12--six team have appeared in the D3FB Top 25 Final Poll Top 10 all three years:  Mt. Union, Mary Hardin-Baylor, St. Thomas, Linfield, North Central, and Wesley.  Add WU Whitewater to this group because of its long run, and 7 teams have been dominant n Division III.  Also, s\during these years 10 other teams have appeared in the Final Top 10.  Each of them only once.  Clearly, there is an "elite" with others just nibbling at the edges, and reaching the top of the heap rarely.   Go through the Top 25 and a number of teams appear there almost every year, but they don't usually break through into the top group. 

To illustrate your point sigma one I threw this together.  Very interesting.  If you assign point values like the D3 poll (25 pts for a 1st place vote and so on) you get the following totals over the past 5 yrs:

1)  Mount Union   122
2)  UMHB   108
3)  Wesley   100
4)  UWW   99
5)  St. Thomas   85
6)  North Central   82
7)  Linfield   81

8)  Wheaton   45
9)  Witt   41
10)  Franklin/Coe   39
12)  Wabash/Salisbury   34
14)  Del Val   33
15)  Trine/ONU   31

All 7 of the "elite" programs finished in the top 10 at least 4 of the 5 years.  Mount and UMHB did it all 5 years.  Wesley just missed with their worst finish being 13th. 

[sigma one]

Dr. Acula.  you nicely quantify the separation between the elite 7 and other "top" DIII programs.  That gap between 81 and 45 is huge. 

[bman]

     Wesley either does not seek a conference (?) or cannot be admitted to one.       

There are 2 conferences that fit geograpically very nicely with Wesley..
The NJAC... Most schools would be a fairly regional ride (Less than 4 hours)
The MAC ...Same general area...just a little west..

While I don't know the real reason (not sure if Wesley has ever expressed interest), I get the sense that there is a couple reasons why Wesley is not in these conferences.
1. A bit of academic snobbery (whether real or perceived)...
2. And probably the biggest reason...if you invite Wesly, you essentially eliminate the conference champion for the forseeable future...and then have to rely on a pool C bid for the next best team...why do that to yourself?
As a MAC poster, I'd love to see Wesley in the MAC, and then let everyone else scramble to get better...
Oh Well...back to the dead east boards...

[ExTartanPlayer]

     Wesley either does not seek a conference (?) or cannot be admitted to one.       

There are 2 conferences that fit geograpically very nicely with Wesley..
The NJAC... Most schools would be a fairly regional ride (Less than 4 hours)
The MAC ...Same general area...just a little west..

While I don't know the real reason (not sure if Wesley has ever expressed interest), I get the sense that there is a couple reasons why Wesley is not in these conferences.
1. A bit of academic snobbery (whether real or perceived)...
2. And probably the biggest reason...if you invite Wesly, you essentially eliminate the conference champion for the forseeable future...and then have to rely on a pool C bid for the next best team...why do that to yourself?
As a MAC poster, I'd love to see Wesley in the MAC, and then let everyone else scramble to get better...
Oh Well...back to the dead east boards...

I think - think - that a major barrier with the NJAC is also their roster limit (105 players, perhaps?) which Wesley does not currently meet and would probably prefer not to.  Football is a big draw for Wesley in terms of overall enrollment and they probably want to keep as many kids on the team as possible.

Re: the MAC, it'd be nice but they are already playing with a full 10-team deck and going to 11 is awkward because it eliminates any OOC games.  Competitively, it'd be tough but the best MAC teams are capable of at least hanging with Wesley, although beating them regularly would be a chore.

[wabco]

People have talked around this ... what is the academic "concern" relative to Wesley in scheduling them ... admitting them to a conference, etc.?

[bman]

People have talked around this ... what is the academic "concern" relative to Wesley in scheduling them ... admitting them to a conference, etc.?

I doubt there is anything specific...I have heard that from a number of folks in discussing Wesley, and the notion that Wesley will accept lesser academically qualified student athletes always bubbles under the surface in this area...  I doub't there is any real merit to that, but is a convenient excuse for the fans of teams that get beat by Wesely.  It also could come from the fact that they were a JuCo ages ago...  I doubt that these are meaningful reasons or for the MAC, but it would be great to ask the MAC representatives if they would consider Wesley...  team movement for academic reasons does happen though.  Susquehanna specifically left the MAC for that reason, and didn't pull any punches.  They wanted to be associated with other institutions that they felt better aligned with their academic standards etc...and look at the NESCAC.  They have taken academic sports alignment to the extreme...
Extartanplayer was correct around the NJAC.  There is a 100 player roster limit in th NJAC.

[sigma one]

The North Coast Athletic Conference's 10 schools all have a chapter of Phi Beta Kappa.  Reportedly, having such a chapter is crucial for being admitted to the conference.  Most recently, Earlham dropped out and DePauw entered--DPU is a Phi Beta Kappa campus.  Not every institution has Phi Beta Kappa, and the fraternity is generally looked at as being available only to a group of academic select schools--is thought of as a marker of academic excellence or status.   The story is that some schools without PBK over a period of years have expressed interest in joining the NCAC.  Those without PBK were not given much consideration.  If you look at schools in Ohio and western Pennsylvania, you can imagine that some of them would like to be among the constellation of institutions in the NCAC.  And you can imagine that several of them would be a good fit--but they do not have a PBK chapter.   Before DePauw, the last schools admitted to the NCAC were Hiram and Wabash.  Both have that academic ticket.  And just on the face of it, doesn't it seem unlikely that the NCAC looked to west-central Indiana for new schools when schools closer to them would like to join?  And doesn't it seem a bit strange that Wabash joined the NCAC when it already had nearer schools to compete against in the Heartland Conference?  Oops, Phi Beta Kappa and schools with similar academic profiles.  So, Wabash (and DPU, though they are used to it with their odd membership in the SCAC) has for more than a decade sent teams as far as 8-9 hours away to play.  Schools driven by the strong desire to play mostly against other schools "like them."  Good or bad?  Both?
   Several years ago and thankfully fading into history (though who really doubts that it will surface again) was that discussion of DIV (DIIIa), or whatever, in which a couple of NCAC presidents played a prominent, not to say leading, role.  One consideration for the new division was how seriously schools took athletics, and whether some schools in DIII were taking athletics all too seriously.  A major argument was that institutions, most of them of high academic status, would form a separate confederation.  To my mind, that attempt to form something else was academic snobbery of the worst kind driven by schools that wanted to relegate intercollegiate sports to something akin to recreational status because they thought strong academics and strong athletics were generally at odds.  Jeez.
     NESCAC, really not worth discussing in this regard.  That horse has been beaten to death already.  Suffice it to say that conferences form for several reasons:  geographical proximity, academic "likeness,"  traditional rivalries, combinations of these, ets.  Wesley might not ever (OK, that's a long time) join a conference or "get into" one.  The world works in mysterious ways.  By the way, I like the notion that a conference won't admit them because almost surely it means that Wesley wins the championship, denying other schools that have been dominant an automatic bid, though I have no doubt that perceived lack of academic quality plays a role, true or not--and is (has been) used as part of an argument.  And who knows whether Wesley has decided to just remain as they are, regardless of scheduling difficulties.   
     

[smedindy]

I think it's football conferences being a-feared of Wesley. They certainly have conference affiliations in other sports - if they were such a renegade school I think they'd have trouble finding a home in all sports.