FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[ExTartanPlayer]

Excellent post, sigma one.

"To my mind, that attempt to form something else was academic snobbery of the worst kind driven by schools that wanted to relegate intercollegiate sports to something akin to recreational status because they thought strong academics and strong athletics were generally at odds.  Jeez."

I generally agree with this.  Strong academics and strong athletics need not be at odds, and if you don't want to play intercollegiate sports "competitively" why play them at all?  However...I can also see a flip side of the coin, just hear me out.

Have you visited many Division III campuses?  Some Division III schools have beautiful facilities that rival smaller Division I schools (honestly, some of the weight rooms are nicer than what your average Division I team worked out in 20 years ago) while others don't have a dedicated "varsity weight room" for athletes.  We hashed out the reasons why it makes sense for some schools and not others, so we need not repeat that here, just illustrating one key point here: while there are fine examples of very strong Division III athletic programs with scarce resources, I understand some schools' position that they view athletics more like a recreational activity tangential to the campus' primary mission rather than a primary driver of enrollment and school spirit.

For schools that prefer that point of view, I have a simpler solution than forming a "Division IV" though: just take the NESCAC route.  Unlike many folks here, I respect the NESCAC for sticking to their guns and playing what amounts to competitive intramurals against "like-minded" institutions.  In my mind, they're making a perfectly acceptable choice.

Would I personally have chosen to attend such a school?  Never!  I really wanted a chance to play in the playoffs and compete at the "highest level" of which I was capable (the fact that this was the highest level I was capable of says enough about my natural talent, or lack thereof).  But I can at least understand the logic of their viewpoint.

[bman]

Not to begin beating that dead horse, but the only thing about the NESCAC that bothers me, is the double standard..
They will not participate in NCAA playoffs in football, but do in other sports...
I'm sure there is a published reason for that, but I don't like it...either all in or all out...

And I for one, would love to see Wesley in the MAC...heck, bring in Salisbury as well...just mandate an 8 game schedule within conference, and don't play all teams every year...we're not "afeared"...

[sigma one]

I fully agree that institutions can do whatever they want and whatever they think is best for them.  There is no need for every school to fit the same or a similar model.   The relative importance of athletics on a campus should be up to those who have in their hands a vision and plan for their school.   ExTartanPlayer, I like your suggestion about a NESCAC-like arrangement.  The problem I see is that NESCAC is selectively choosing football to exclude themselves from post-season play and competition vs. "outsiders."  In all other sports, their athletes participate in post-season play and participate vs. "outsiders."  And do very well, including winning national championships.  Still, if NESCAC thinks this a good ides for them, well, OK.  What we think doesn't matter; I just continue not to understand the NESCAC rationale beyond a certain effete way of thinking about football that they don't think about other sports. 
  Having said that I like the I solution of having schools agree with one another to form a NESCAC-like grouping, I don't think that is likely to happen.  One reason why DIV didn't get traction is that only a few presidents and schools were willing to take the chance of what might happen if they went out on their own, or tried to form a new division within the NCAA.  Who knows what the NCAA would have permitted if the schools had officially requested a new division.
   As an important aside, let me say that Division III is, in my view, now at the point that too many of its members are wanting to be like the big boys.  I'm not talking about scholarships.  I'm talking about perhaps too much emphasis on athletics by too many schools.  After all,  a founding principle of DIII, and one still often articulated, is athletic competition with emphasis on the participation of the student-athlete.  Now, as reflected on these boards, there is more and more emphasis on winning and advancing throughout the playoffs.  Not by everyone, of course, but by  more than a few institutions.  I could argue that schools and their student-athletes might be, might be I'm saying,  just as well served, or better served, putting their equipment away after conference play is over, declaring a conference champion, and moving on. But that thinking has never gained a toehold.   A strong counter-argument to this, and a rational one, is that many schools assert they seek excellence in all endeavors for their students--academic, athletic, and co-curricular (music, theater, etc.)   How are student-athletes best served?  By extending seasons and opportunities for competition?  By limiting time involved in sports?  I've heard faculty argue that if students were not so involved in athletics, they would study more, be better students.  Yeah, right.
   Humans being what we are, we will search for ways to extend the boundaries of what we do.   The problem, then, is to find ways to keep things in perspective, if that's possible.   
     

     

[DPU3619]

Coming along nicely.

[Bishopleftiesdad]

Wes,
Thanks for sharing. Looks a lot better than when we were out there in the spring for baseball. Any Idea if they are ever going to redo Walker field. Pretty nice atmosphere but not a comfortable place to watch baseball.

[smedindy]

The school I work at now is in a situation like the UAA where they don't have enough schools to qualify for the D-2 auto bid so even if they win the conference, that may be all that there is. It's kind of disheartening not to have a reward besides a banner and a trophy for a hard fought championship, even if that may be a 58-7 shellacking by a national power.

So I don't think many schools, teams, fans or players would really advocate a NESCAC type model.

And I know that we've cussed and discussed transfers here, but our men's team had 12 players this past season - 11 were either JUCO or other transfers and the 12th was a redshirt freshman. I'll be interested to see how that plays out this coming season. Different scene...

[wabashcpa]

Wes,

Field looks good - look forward to seeing it up close this fall.  Congrats also on re-hire of Coach Lynch - should bode well for the future, if not necessarily 2013.

[DPU3619]

Wes,
Thanks for sharing. Looks a lot better than when we were out there in the spring for baseball. Any Idea if they are ever going to redo Walker field. Pretty nice atmosphere but not a comfortable place to watch baseball.

Not that I've heard, but in my opinion, that field is in pretty good shape compared to some others I've seen in the area.  Up until IU built their new one recently, I thought what DePauw had was better than what they had, honestly. 

[fantastic50]

As an important aside, let me say that Division III is, in my view, now at the point that too many of its members are wanting to be like the big boys.  I'm not talking about scholarships.  I'm talking about perhaps too much emphasis on athletics by too many schools.  After all,  a founding principle of DIII, and one still often articulated, is athletic competition with emphasis on the participation of the student-athlete.  Now, as reflected on these boards, there is more and more emphasis on winning and advancing throughout the playoffs.  Not by everyone, of course, but by  more than a few institutions.  I could argue that schools and their student-athletes might be, might be I'm saying,  just as well served, or better served, putting their equipment away after conference play is over, declaring a conference champion, and moving on.

If the "big boys" ever decide to withdraw from the NCAA, in order to take all of the (March Madness and College Football Playoff) loot, I think that what you are describing will happen.  D-3 national playoffs wouldn't exist without subsidization from D-I TV broadcast revenue.  If that breakup happens (and I think that it's very possible), then I suspect we might see "bowl games" (minus the travel to warm destinations) before Thanksgiving break, matching conference champs in football (OAC vs WIAC, NCAC vs HCAC, etc.).  Other sports might have some sort of regional championship (maybe a four-team Great Lakes regional basketball championship among conference champs from the NCAC, OAC, HCAC, and MIAC, held at Hope, Wooster, Witt, or Calvin), but that would probably be the end of it.  While I enjoy seeing the "battles" for a trip to Salem as much as the next guy, like sigma one, I'm not so sure that scaling back the commitments associated with being a D-III athlete (non-traditional seasons, etc.) would be a bad thing.

[Bishopleftiesdad]

Wes,
Thanks for sharing. Looks a lot better than when we were out there in the spring for baseball. Any Idea if they are ever going to redo Walker field. Pretty nice atmosphere but not a comfortable place to watch baseball.

Not that I've heard, but in my opinion, that field is in pretty good shape compared to some others I've seen in the area.  Up until IU built their new one recently, I thought what DePauw had was better than what they had, honestly.

The field itself is fine. I would like the seating refurbished.

[ExTartanPlayer]

I could argue that schools and their student-athletes might be, might be I'm saying,  just as well served, or better served, putting their equipment away after conference play is over, declaring a conference champion, and moving on.

While I enjoy seeing the "battles" for a trip to Salem as much as the next guy, like sigma one, I'm not so sure that scaling back the commitments associated with being a D-III athlete (non-traditional seasons, etc.) would be a bad thing.

Just wanted to say +1 to each of these statements.  I enjoyed playing in the playoffs and probably would have found it strange as a 20-21 year old to play football with no possibility of a "championship" at the end of the season, but with a little time, distance from the game, and maturity I can acknowledge that I've wondered the above as well (also, I'll note that this could easily be extended to the high school level, where state championships and playoffs have been at once a boon for many reasons but ALSO have come with their share of costs, such as the loss of some traditional Thanksgiving/rivalry games and the ever-further-extension of football season into winter sports seasons, but that is a discussion for another day).

Thing is, a lot of times this viewpoint is confused with a belief that I'm trying to take competition out of Division III football and turn it into a bunch of participation trophies.  Not true; removal of playoffs need not lessen the product on the field and competition.  Instead, it would put greater emphasis on battling for the conference title against your respective peer institutions.  The games themselves would be no less intense; in fact, they might become MORE intense because you'd have the ten-game season and then that's IT, so you might as well leave it all on the field.

Are there trade-offs?  Of course, and I'm sure this would give rise to a bunch of people complaining about the lack of a "true national champion" and things of that nature.  I do like the playoffs as they are and I'm fine with Division III ball being competitive, I just think it's worth noting that the NESCAC and the schools who brought up a D-IV might have a point of some type.  More thoughts later, maybe, for now just venting this stuff as it comes.

[sigma one]

Yep, good off-season blowharding when there are no results to take apart.  Please make no mistake, I am one of those junkies who enjoys Division III post-season.  I see games every year even when my team(s) are not involved.  I also see week 1 games when my team does not play until week 2.  I've annoyed my wife by getting in the car and driving several hundred miles to see games between quality DIII teams.  I don't think there is any going back from the present situation unless, as posited above, the money schools pull out of the NCAA and the whole structure falls apart.  Be interesting to see what ensues if that happens.  Still, if there were no national playoff players would (after a paradigm shift of the current players departing) celebrate their conference championship, get the trophy, and move on.  Oh, someone would say isn't it too bad that A and B can't meet; good fuel for discussion. 
     For the moment, my concern (a minor one to be sure) is that more and more DIII teams and their coaches look at advancing to the playoffs rather than "just" a conference championship as a major goal.   Winning a conference is a big deal.  I can say this:  Two years ago the Wabash coaches and players considered it an honor to travel to Mt. Union to play against a storied program--an opportunity they would not have had in a non-championship structure.  And how many times have we heard people say, "If DII and DIII can figure out how to have a playoff leading to a National Championship, why can't the majors?"  At least DIII isn't doing it for the money.  (Nothing wrong with money; I'm glad DIII isn't playing only for it.  There is supreme value in playing for the love of the game.)

[D3MAFAN]

As an important aside, let me say that Division III is, in my view, now at the point that too many of its members are wanting to be like the big boys.  I'm not talking about scholarships.  I'm talking about perhaps too much emphasis on athletics by too many schools.  After all,  a founding principle of DIII, and one still often articulated, is athletic competition with emphasis on the participation of the student-athlete.  Now, as reflected on these boards, there is more and more emphasis on winning and advancing throughout the playoffs.  Not by everyone, of course, but by  more than a few institutions.  I could argue that schools and their student-athletes might be, might be I'm saying,  just as well served, or better served, putting their equipment away after conference play is over, declaring a conference champion, and moving on.

If the "big boys" ever decide to withdraw from the NCAA, in order to take all of the (March Madness and College Football Playoff) loot, I think that what you are describing will happen.  D-3 national playoffs wouldn't exist without subsidization from D-I TV broadcast revenue.  If that breakup happens (and I think that it's very possible), then I suspect we might see "bowl games" (minus the travel to warm destinations) before Thanksgiving break, matching conference champs in football (OAC vs WIAC, NCAC vs HCAC, etc.).  Other sports might have some sort of regional championship (maybe a four-team Great Lakes regional basketball championship among conference champs from the NCAC, OAC, HCAC, and MIAC, held at Hope, Wooster, Witt, or Calvin), but that would probably be the end of it.  While I enjoy seeing the "battles" for a trip to Salem as much as the next guy, like sigma one, I'm not so sure that scaling back the commitments associated with being a D-III athlete (non-traditional seasons, etc.) would be a bad thing.

As far as matchups, it would be similar to the ECAC bowl games, which can get interesting based on the matchups. The conversations would be very interesting and probably continue into late December.

[wabco]

OLMY is back!  Can the straight on kick be far behind?  (Just kidding.)  Except for Morel, all the assistant coaches are Little Giant footballers.  Says a lot about what these guys got out of their Wabash experience and their giving back.  The present group of players should benefit from this band of brothers.

[cave2bens]

OLMY is back!  Can the straight on kick be far behind?  (Just kidding.)  Except for Morel, all the assistant coaches are Little Giant footballers.  Says a lot about what these guys got out of their Wabash experience and their giving back.  The present group of players should benefit from this band of brothers.

Good to see Olmy return to his roots and escape the back forty cornfield along US 24.