FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[Wabash Hokie]

may not be relevant but DPU lost to the team that lost to Earlham.

Save that one in the vault for mid-November's Monon thread, Griz... BreckBear will appreciate it. 

Cave2Bens:

Your post reminded me that October 1 has rolled around.  Time to open up the Monon Bell thread for 2013.   

[wabashcpa]

Hate to see the early Vegas odds on that game.  Yeesh.

[formerd3db]

Bashbacker and ExTartanPlayer:

Indeed, that is a huge line for DIII standards.  That approaches the Mount Union line (average of 302 for O and D lines, which was only 2 pounds less than the avg. of Ohio State's DI line that same year) the year they played Bridgewater in the Stagg Bowl.  I also remember one year back in the mid-1990's when Alma had a line average of 275, however, unfortunately, they didn't have the "guns" at the skilled player positions that year.  Seems like that is the pattern in many situations i.e. either you have a huge line of very good players and not as talented elite skilled positions then vice versa in other years.

[ExTartanPlayer]

Indeed, that is a huge line for DIII standards. 

Seems like that is the pattern in many situations i.e. either you have a huge line of very good players and not as talented elite skilled positions...

In Division III, I actually think that it's more common to have a huge line of NOT-very-good players (although I suspect that Wabash's big guys are pretty good, judging by the team's production thus far).  My signature line's quote is admittedly an attempt at self-deprecating humor, but I held up at 5'11" and 240ish in a run-first offense, no less.  Now I do think that bigger CAN be better if the big guy moves well, but I've seen plenty of big guys playing D3 who weren't any good.

The Wabash production speaks for itself; those guys can play.  But I've never really looked at the size on a Division III team's OL and used that to judge whether I thought they were good or not.

[bashbrother]

ETP -  Your absolutely right.....With offensive lineman, " it is all about the feet."   Having two best friends that were both starting Pac-10 Offensive lineman.... and now a having watched DIII Football for the past 12 years,  size "can" matter.  I believe as fans,  we sometimes think it is the end all.   I have seen plenty of 240 - 250 ish lineman have tremendous careers in Div. III and it really comes down to a size/athleticism equation. 

Changing subject -

I took at look at Witt's starting line up from their last game.    If that was accurate,   they show 8 Seniors starting on Offense and 8 Seniors starting on Defense....  This might have to be the year for Witt to do something.....   Tough for any program to replace 16 of 21 starters and play at the same high level from the start.

[AlleghenyAlum]

Indeed, that is a huge line for DIII standards. 

Seems like that is the pattern in many situations i.e. either you have a huge line of very good players and not as talented elite skilled positions...

In Division III, I actually think that it's more common to have a huge line of NOT-very-good players (although I suspect that Wabash's big guys are pretty good, judging by the team's production thus far).  My signature line's quote is admittedly an attempt at self-deprecating humor, but I held up at 5'11" and 240ish in a run-first offense, no less.  Now I do think that bigger CAN be better if the big guy moves well, but I've seen plenty of big guys playing D3 who weren't any good.

The Wabash production speaks for itself; those guys can play.  But I've never really looked at the size on a Division III team's OL and used that to judge whether I thought they were good or not.

But at the same time your offense isn't based on a smash mouth running type of offense.  Your offense is basically built for quick o-lineman. Bigger is often better when all else are equal.

[AlleghenyAlum]

Also on the subject of the Gheny squad, when you don't have many athletes and the kids don't care, you're gonna have a bad time.

[bashbrother]

Wabash weekly release is up.

http://sports.wabash.edu/documents/2013/10/2/ReleaseOct22013.pdf?id=201

[ExTartanPlayer]

ETP -  Your absolutely right.....With offensive lineman, " it is all about the feet."   Having two best friends that were both starting Pac-10 Offensive lineman.... and now a having watched DIII Football for the past 12 years,  size "can" matter.  I believe as fans,  we sometimes think it is the end all.   I have seen plenty of 240 - 250 ish lineman have tremendous careers in Div. III and it really comes down to a size/athleticism equation. 

Changing subject -

I took at look at Witt's starting line up from their last game.    If that was accurate,   they show 8 Seniors starting on Offense and 8 Seniors starting on Defense....  This might have to be the year for Witt to do something.....   Tough for any program to replace 16 of 21 starters and play at the same high level from the start.

Agreed re: lineplay.  I just like to point out that a line full of 6'5" trees isn't a guarantee that it's actually a good line, although a big line certainly CAN be a good line.  I used to be inherently suspicious of any big guy in D3, actually, figuring that if he could "really play" there must be some reason he's not playing Division 1, but now there are so many quality HS football players that some very good big guys do end up on D3 rosters.  Our right tackle was 6'5" and absolutely could have played FCS ball if he'd grown into his body a year or two earlier; frankly, coming out of HS his footwork was still a little clumsy, but by his senior year he was an absolute force.  I wonder if that's the case with some of the big kids on the Wabash line?  Couple of late bloomers, maybe?

The proof is in the production; if the offense is moving the ball, the line's probably doing the job.  Wabash's big goons up front must be doing something right to keep tossing up 50 points a game and churning out big rushing days.

Oh, and if you have two best friends that were starters in the Pac-10, I sincerely hope I never end up on your bad side in a disagreement of any kind.  Those must be some big boys.

Re: Witt and the large number of seniors, I agree.  16 senior starters is a lot.  Good for this year, tough for next year, but it has to be all about the now.

[formerd3db]

ETP and bb:

Not to "beat a dead horse", but I actually agree with you.  I should have clarified my statement in more detail.  I was talking about "in many of those specific situations" that I've seen occasionally over the years in DIII where the linemen are huge AND talented yet not having the compliment of better skilled players on the team for that year and, again, vice versa (of course, that was not the situation at all with Mount Union for the Bridgewater Stagg Bowl i.e. they were great at all the positions! ).

Yet, I agree with you that OVERALL and more often, when huge lineman are in DIII, not all are very good.  Those who have such large size and are good obviously rarely end up at the DIII level.  However, in the situations I've seen, those linemen were good enough to play at the DI and DII levels, however, chose (for various personal reasons) to attend a DIII school and play at that level.  Regardless, it is still neat to see these occasional situations with huge lines at the small college level that we have been discussion.  Anyway, enough of that topic.

[ExTartanPlayer]

Indeed, that is a huge line for DIII standards. 

Seems like that is the pattern in many situations i.e. either you have a huge line of very good players and not as talented elite skilled positions...

In Division III, I actually think that it's more common to have a huge line of NOT-very-good players (although I suspect that Wabash's big guys are pretty good, judging by the team's production thus far).  My signature line's quote is admittedly an attempt at self-deprecating humor, but I held up at 5'11" and 240ish in a run-first offense, no less.  Now I do think that bigger CAN be better if the big guy moves well, but I've seen plenty of big guys playing D3 who weren't any good.

The Wabash production speaks for itself; those guys can play.  But I've never really looked at the size on a Division III team's OL and used that to judge whether I thought they were good or not.

But at the same time your offense isn't based on a smash mouth running type of offense.  Your offense is basically built for quick o-lineman. Bigger is often better when all else are equal.

Welcome, AlleghenyAlum!  Please stick around, despite the Gators' current sorry state, it is good to have posters from more schools represented!

Yes, you are correct that our offense is not a brute-force offense, and the second part of your post - "when all else are equal" - is the key.  Often the big guys playing D3 are playing D3 for a reason, as one might say, and it's because they're lacking something in their game (otherwise they may have been picked up by a higher level school).  Sure, if they're equally athletic, I'll take a 6'4" and 290 pounder over a wee mite like myself, but how many athletic guys that size are left over once D-1 has had their pick?  Not that many.  In any case, let's move on.

You sound quite displeased with the current state of affairs in Meadville.  Do you care to elaborate?  We've certainly noted the lack of athletes on the squad, but the lack of spirit is what's really troubling; even in some years when Allegheny hasn't been particularly strong, they seemed to get up for big games.  I recall my one H2H matchup against Gheny, which I admittedly lost, as a game where the Gators were clearly EXCITED in all caps to be there; they treated it like the Super Bowl.  That doesn't seem to be the case this year.

Are you an alum of recent vintage, may I ask?  Did we knock heads, perhaps?

[wally_wabash]

Also on the subject of the Gheny squad, when you don't have many athletes and the kids don't care, you're gonna have a bad time.

I really hope the South Park reference here was intentional and not just a product of my having watched way too much South Park.

[smedindy]

Also on the subject of the Gheny squad, when you don't have many athletes and the kids don't care, you're gonna have a bad time.

Welcome aboard, BTW! So it's apathy, too? Wow. I would think that D3 athletes, even if they're playing for a less-than-stellar squad, would relish playing the game.

[firstdown]

ExTartan Player

This may come as a shock to you, but there a players of D1 quality that play at the D3 level.  There are some kids who recognize that when you sign that D1 letter of intent, they own you lock stock and barrel for the next four or five years.   Some kids at the D3 level attend a particular school for the educational experience rather than go to a D1 school where they spend 8 to 10 hours a day focused on football. 

[sigma one]

 AlleghenyAlum.       Welcome to the Board.  Awfully bold statement, and you are seeing some reaction and questions.  Without scholarships,  every year many DIII players who have lost heart for the game or found something they like better or find out they want to concentrate on academics walk away from the game.  The ones who stick around usually love the experience, and if down the depth chart enjoy being part of the team.  So, what IS going on at Allegheny?  Or are you hearing from a few disgruntled players after absorbing big early losses or guys who think they should be playing more when the team is losing?  Or what?