FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[bashbrother]

BB16 is probably the most diehard Wabash football fan I know......or have ever met. (My Dad may have been close.)   Add to this that he, as many of us,  were left very frustrated after Saturday.  Very.  Then add some comments about specific Little Giant players from Saturday.....  and Finally add, that he was one hell of an intense,  middle linebacker in his day crushing bones at Hollett Stadium.   

I know how much he has respected the Grizz over the years.  He also wants Wabash to play to their potential.... and he has always been a HUGE motivator of current Wabash players as they move through the program.

He will be fine.... I think it was the combination of events in a compressed time frame.

Wabash is fortunate to have fans that care as much as he does.

[The_Bishop]

I gave it +1 for the use of "cogent".  Proof that no one ever asked a CMU grad for extra napkins and ketchup packs with his or her order.

[smedindy]

I had thought Franklin was NAIA before forming the ICAC  - joining along with Anderson, Hanover, Manchester, and Taylor in that exodus from NAIA (then Taylor decided not to go to NCAA). (Dating myself). I wish Franklin had all-time scores on their website or media guide. I did find a blurb that the ICAC in their 2012 media guide:

"The league's charter members included men's athletic teams from Anderson University, DePauw University, Franklin College,
Hanover College, Manchester College and Wabash College. Taylor University and Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology joined
the slate in 1988. The league not only distinguished itself as an "academic athletic conference," but permitted schools to restore
athletic rivalries which, in some cases, dated back to the 19th century.

During the spring of 1991 the presidents of the member institutions voted to align the conference with the National Collegiate
Athletic Association. At that time, Franklin, Anderson, Hanover and Manchester elected to join DePauw, Rose-Hulman and
Wabash as NCAA Division III affiliates. Taylor, which entered the league in 1988, withdrew from the conference in 1991"

[wally_wabash]

I read the whole thing as tongue in cheek...just having a litlte bit of fun.  It's late in the season, we haven't played a big game yet, we're coming off of a pretty bad road trip (we are spoiled when an 8 takeaway road win is a bad trip)....I think our dander is up just a shade.  Deep breaths, friends.

But seriously, we need a big game and some big game talk.  Time to kick this season up into higher gear. 

[wally_wabash]

I had thought Franklin was NAIA before forming the ICAC  - joining along with Anderson, Hanover, Manchester, and Taylor in that exodus from NAIA (then Taylor decided not to go to NCAA). (Dating myself). I wish Franklin had all-time scores on their website or media guide. I did find a blurb that the ICAC in their 2012 media guide:

I remember seeing some NAIA banners hanging up in Franklin's gym the last time I was there.  It was actually spring 1998...a small group of us traveled down to Franklin for an ICAC hoops tournament game.  It was going to be DePauw's last game in the conference (they were pretty awful that year, Franklin was really good) and we wanted to give DePauw a proper sendoff.  Franklin's crowd appreciated the help, I'm sure.    

I know I'm way off topic, but damn those were some awesome years for ICAC hoops.  Wabash was excellent (Estelle, Latham, Tabor), Franklin was really good (Jason Sibley was a monster...he and Estelle had an epic showdown in the championship game), Anderson was good, Hanover was good, RHIT had been really good around that time.  That was a fun hoops league.  Alright, back to football. 

[02 Warhawk]

Can you really count a lost to a 1-AA team and Mt. Union against them? And a loss to Mt. Union not of the normal 49-7 variety??

In Massey, Butler is ranked one below Mt. Union.

Mount beats Butler 10 out of 10 times. The Massey ratings are ridiculous...is this the poll that has Whitewater as No. 1 in DIII?

Really? It's not a poll, my friend, it's an algorithm, and it's pretty darn sound, especially now since the teams are all pretty much connected. (Of course, throw out the NESCAC which is included and normalized against the entire CF Universe. Not my choice to do it, but hey...)
The one common opponent between Mt. Union and Butler had similar results. Now, that's a pretty decent indicator of the relative strengths. Butler's three losses have come to South Dakota State, Dartmouth and San Diego. South Dakota State beat Northern Iowa who beat Iowa. San Diego laid the only defeat on Mercer, and the Ivy usually plays decent football.

Plus, Mt. Union's power rankings are hurt by their back-loaded OAC schedule. They've played all the OAC dregs and none of the good teams, and they squeaked by their one quality opponent. Since any sound algorithm brings in diminishing returns, then pounding Marietta into submission only gets you so far.

Without any contra evidence, I don't think its out of line. It's a useful tool when comparing programs that don't have much, if any, crossover. It is a better tool for basketball and other sports where you have more non-conference results to really do a comparison, but in football it's useful still.

Ok...maybe Butler is better than I originally thought. But I'm not sure the NESCAC gets four teams in the top 15, if they would play a non-conference schedule and post season. It's hard to tell how they would stack up against the rest of the country. But I'm guessing Mount, Linfield, NCC and probably others will handle Wesleyan CT (ranked 3rd). But I guess we'll never know.

Even though I'm a UWW fan, I still have question Whitewater being the #1 team in algorithm

[bashbrother]

But seriously, we need a big game and some big game talk.  Time to kick this season up into higher gear.

True dat!  Huge weekend for North Region and Nationally!  It will begin to tell us some things we have been waiting to find out.   For all of the conversation about back loaded schedules, well the product of them is:  the next couple of weeks are going to be full of significant games!

#1 Mount Union @ #9 Heidelberg -   The game many in the North have had marked on their calendars.  Can Heidelberg stay with the Purple Raiders?
#2 Linfield @ #25 Willamette -  Does Linfield keep rolling over everyone with their eye on the prize?
#4 North Central @  #13 Illinois Wes. -  Titans coming off a big win against Wheaton...  Should be a great one!
#8 UW Platteville  #6 UWW -  Me thinks this UWW program is heading back to national prominence.
#18 St. Thomas @ Augsburg -   Augburg gave Bethel everything they wanted earlier in the season.

Love Great D3 Football!

[smedindy]

Can you really count a lost to a 1-AA team and Mt. Union against them? And a loss to Mt. Union not of the normal 49-7 variety??

In Massey, Butler is ranked one below Mt. Union.

Mount beats Butler 10 out of 10 times. The Massey ratings are ridiculous...is this the poll that has Whitewater as No. 1 in DIII?

Really? It's not a poll, my friend, it's an algorithm, and it's pretty darn sound, especially now since the teams are all pretty much connected. (Of course, throw out the NESCAC which is included and normalized against the entire CF Universe. Not my choice to do it, but hey...)
The one common opponent between Mt. Union and Butler had similar results. Now, that's a pretty decent indicator of the relative strengths. Butler's three losses have come to South Dakota State, Dartmouth and San Diego. South Dakota State beat Northern Iowa who beat Iowa. San Diego laid the only defeat on Mercer, and the Ivy usually plays decent football.

Plus, Mt. Union's power rankings are hurt by their back-loaded OAC schedule. They've played all the OAC dregs and none of the good teams, and they squeaked by their one quality opponent. Since any sound algorithm brings in diminishing returns, then pounding Marietta into submission only gets you so far.

Without any contra evidence, I don't think its out of line. It's a useful tool when comparing programs that don't have much, if any, crossover. It is a better tool for basketball and other sports where you have more non-conference results to really do a comparison, but in football it's useful still.

Ok...maybe Butler is better than I originally thought. But I'm not sure the NESCAC gets four teams in the top 15, if they would play a non-conference schedule and post season. It's hard to tell how they would stack up against the rest of the country. But I'm guessing Mount, Linfield, NCC and probably others will handle Wesleyan CT (ranked 3rd). But I guess we'll never know.

Even though I'm a UWW fan, I still have question Whitewater being the #1 team in algorithm

He normalizes the NESCAC against the entire college football universe, not just D-3. I question that decision as he used to just separate them. However, I just remove them.

[ExTartanPlayer]

But seriously, we need a big game and some big game talk.  Time to kick this season up into higher gear.

True dat!  Huge weekend for North Region and Nationally!  It will begin to tell us some things we have been waiting to find out.   For all of the conversation about backloaded schedules,  the next couple of weeks are going to be full of significant games!

#1 Mount Union @ #9 Heidelberg -   The game many in the North have had marked on their calendars.  Can Heidelberg stay with the Purple Raiders?
#2 Linfield @ #25 Willamette -  Does Linfield keep rolling?
#4 North Central @  #13 Illinois Wes. -  Titans coming off a big win against Wheaton...  Should be a great one!
#8 UW Platteville  #6 UWW -  Me thinks this UWW program is heading back to national prominence.
#18 St. Thomas @ Augsburg -   Augburg gave Bethel everything they wanted earlier in the season.

Love Great D3 Football!

Not sure whether I am more excited for this week or Week 11's potential slate (obviously some of these rankings will change by then):

#15 John Carroll @ #1 Mount Union
#2 Linfield @ Pacific (don't laugh, Pacific is 6-1 and lost by a point to PLU, this game will likely have a Pool A bid on the line)
#5 Bethel @ #23 St. John's (MIAC title on the line, possibly a slew of Pool A/C implications for the loser; I'm not sure any game will affect more different teams' playoff chances than this result)
#8 UW-Platteville @ #10 UW-Oshkosh (could also have both Pool A/C implications depending on the UWP-UWW result this week)

I'm getting ahead of myself.  Both have some great games.  You guys are kinda lucky, the Wabash-Witt game falls in a week with slightly fewer glamorous matchups (really that game, Wheaton vs. NCC, and Heidelberg vs, JCU are the three biggies in Week 10 - although Ithaca vs. Salisbury is also sort-of-big regionally).  I guess each week has 4 or 5 really huge games, now that I see it.  Good stuff

Also, I agree on UWW.  I made the same observation a few days before the UWW-UWO game on the WIAC boards (although my prediction that UWW would win by 21 was wrong).  Since a 17-7 win over WashU in the opener, UWW won their next six games by 41+ points.  They might not be seven-straight-Stagg-Bowls back, but they're a top-5 national team again IMO.

[smedindy]

The MIAC has really sprinkled it's big games throughout the year - of course it helps to have a lot of really good teams and a few great ones.

[firstdown]

I read the whole thing as tongue in cheek...just having a litlte bit of fun.  It's late in the season, we haven't played a big game yet, we're coming off of a pretty bad road trip (we are spoiled when an 8 takeaway road win is a bad trip)....I think our dander is up just a shade.  Deep breaths, friends.

Wally upon further reflection, I wouldn't term Saturday's game as "pretty bad."  For all the reasons that have been cited, Wabash wasn't at its best, and Oberlin deserves credit for having played their hearts out.  Wabash always felt in control of the game.  To be sure, the LG's left some points on the field due to the Yeomen's stiff goal line defense.   Those would have been nice to have, but they weren't material to the outcome of the game.  I have no doubt that the OL will focus on those red zone situations, and, particularly as the injured tight ends return, will handle those situations much better from here on.   Further, the coaches are no doubt focused on getting that right, and why open the playbook and expose other strategies to upcoming opponents when it wasn't critical to the outcome of the game?

Pressure from the Wabash defense coupled with the awful weather conditions generated a lot of turn overs by the Yeomen.  Wabash. while not perfect, minimized those mistakes.    Saturday was one of those grind it out days and Wabash showed me a lot about LG's character when they hung tough in adverse conditions and feeling crappy with a bug.

[smedindy]

We need to give credit to Oberlin, again, for hanging tough. They just gear up for the LGs.

[GRIZ_BACKER]

I had thought Franklin was NAIA before forming the ICAC  - joining along with Anderson, Hanover, Manchester, and Taylor in that exodus from NAIA (then Taylor decided not to go to NCAA). (Dating myself). I wish Franklin had all-time scores on their website or media guide. I did find a blurb that the ICAC in their 2012 media guide:

I remember seeing some NAIA banners hanging up in Franklin's gym the last time I was there.  It was actually spring 1998...a small group of us traveled down to Franklin for an ICAC hoops tournament game.  It was going to be DePauw's last game in the conference (they were pretty awful that year, Franklin was really good) and we wanted to give DePauw a proper sendoff.  Franklin's crowd appreciated the help, I'm sure.    

I know I'm way off topic, but damn those were some awesome years for ICAC hoops.  Wabash was excellent (Estelle, Latham, Tabor), Franklin was really good (Jason Sibley was a monster...he and Estelle had an epic showdown in the championship game), Anderson was good, Hanover was good, RHIT had been really good around that time.  That was a fun hoops league.  Alright, back to football.

Great memories.  I went to all those games.  The games in crawfordsville required extra seating when Sibley and Estelle played.  Tremendous competition.  I especially liked the students beating on pots and pans.  fun stuff.  hasnt been the same since.

[GrizFan]

I had thought Franklin was NAIA before forming the ICAC  - joining along with Anderson, Hanover, Manchester, and Taylor in that exodus from NAIA (then Taylor decided not to go to NCAA). (Dating myself). I wish Franklin had all-time scores on their website or media guide. I did find a blurb that the ICAC in their 2012 media guide:

"The league's charter members included men's athletic teams from Anderson University, DePauw University, Franklin College,
Hanover College, Manchester College and Wabash College. Taylor University and Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology joined
the slate in 1988. The league not only distinguished itself as an "academic athletic conference," but permitted schools to restore
athletic rivalries which, in some cases, dated back to the 19th century.

During the spring of 1991 the presidents of the member institutions voted to align the conference with the National Collegiate
Athletic Association. At that time, Franklin, Anderson, Hanover and Manchester elected to join DePauw, Rose-Hulman and
Wabash as NCAA Division III affiliates. Taylor, which entered the league in 1988, withdrew from the conference in 1991"

Franklin was a member of NAIA District 21 for many years but they were not a member of the old Hoosier Buckeye Conference. They won the NAIA Mineral Water Bowl in the 1970s.  Franklin transitioned from the NAIA to NCAA Div II beginning in around 1978.  We had several All-Americans in both NAIA and NCAA Div II in the early '80s.  I was a Grizzly wrestler and we actually participated in both NAIA and NCAA Div II regional and national tournaments.  Franklin was a member of the old Heartland Collegiate Conference with Ashland, Butler, Valpo, Indiana Central (now UIndy), St. Joseph, and Evansville.  We also usually played powerful teams from Grand Valley State, Saginaw Valley State, Ferris State, Georgetown (KY), and Carson-Newman.  We beat Carson-Newman who was #1 and defending NAIA National Champions at the time.  The Grizzlies dropped to Div III in either 1988 or 1989.

[smedindy]

Not doubting you and your experience in wrestling and cross championships (who knows, the NCAA and NAIA may have allowed dual membership in wrestling) but they have two divisions in NAIA as well. And I remember quite vividly the debate about Franklin, et. al. moving from NAIA to NCAA and that's why Taylor fled.  I found a program history on the men's hoops site, and Franklin went to the NAIA national tournament in mens' hoops in 1992, which I think was their last year they could participate.

NCAA teams playing NAIA teams, and even being in the same conference, wasn't unusual then since post-seasons weren't as fully fleshed out in some sports. Heck, even today Nebraska Wesleyan (and maybe one other) chooses whether to play NCAA or NAIA in basketball. The GLVC didn't have football for the D-2 schools (and didn't until 2012, I think) so there was probably a lot of mixing and matching there.

The ICC split up about the time the NCAA moved to the Divisional set up from College and University.

I just found an link about the old ICC, which in football was the Heartland. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heartland_Collegiate_Conference

It's funny, how the ICC became the Heartland and the ICAC became the HCAC. Hmmm...

So they didn't move DOWN, I think they moved UP from NAIA to NCAA !

My wonder is why Franklin doesn't have an archive somewhere for past results and schedules. I found the win over Carson Newman on the Carson Newman site - they were NAIA champs that year. Hmmm...