FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[wally_wabash]

Interesting points all. I don't claim to know all the rules and I'm not good at spotting the finer things that are penalties as others, however I do have this observation. The home team should never complain about officiating. Haven't heard anyone from Wittenberg complain about the officiating yesterday but if they had I wouldn't want to hear it. Another thing is that I am sure the NCAC had the #1 officiating crew working that game yesterday. Would you want the crew that worked say the Kenyon game? I thought the pass interference penalty at the end was correct, once again I am not up on the finer points of that penalty buy I have a good picture of the play and I think it is obvious.

I pulled up the archived video last night to look at these two plays in particular.  On the 4th and 3, the Wabash offensive lineman pulled a guy down from behind....it was behind the play and out in the wide open and it was a pretty easy call to make.  I didn't get a good look at the interference in person and the video doesn't have a good look at it either, so who knows.  From what I could see, the pass was very underthrown, Witt's receiver stopped abruptly to come back to the ball and got himself run into by the Wabash DB.  It today's football, that's a foul on the defense.  That's a tough break where Witt gets a bail out on a bad throw, but that's how the game is called today. 

[ohiofan1954]

- "The turnover ensured a second-half shutout for the Wittenberg defense. Somehow the Tigers won despite losing 348-211 in total offense and 49:02 to 23:17 in time of possession."

Didn't realize how long this game was!

Really could have used those extra couple of minutes.   

Wow, I knew the game lasted a long time for d3 but I didn't realize it lasted that long.

[sigma one]

I have not been able to get on here earlier.  I, too, attended the game and share my frustration as a rabid fan of the Little Giants.  Congratulations to Wittenberg on the win.  I thought both crucial penalty calls were correct, even though the holding call was behind the play and in my view did not affect the execution of the play. It was out in the open with the referee standing only a few yards away.  And as Wally has pointed out the pass interference is the way the game is called today, even though the throw was short and would have never been completed.
     The ref crew yesterday--if that's the best the NCAC can muster up for a championship game (someone said they could only believe the conference would send its best crew), Well, um . . .This is not critique of any particular call (again, I think the most crucial calls were correct),  but the the white cap could hardly run down the field or bend over.  No matter the calls, that doesn't inspire much confidence when tough calls are made.
     In this game, on Saturday, Witt made the two most important plays--the blocked punt that gave them a very short field, and the fumble recovery and TD run following a hard hit on the Wabash QB.  These were not Unforced Errors (as someone earlier pointed out).  They were very much FORCED by an opportunistic Wittenberg defense.  And Wit took advantage.
     Which team is better.  I'm a Wabash fan, so I think Wabash is still the better team overall.  Witt was better yesterday because they scored more points.   Statistics, as they say are for losers, and while they may be instructive about the relative strengths of the two teams, only the final result really matters.
     So, I'm hoping for Witt to represent the NCAC well, and I'm confident that Wabash will keep the Bell and, that happening, be chosen for the playoffs.  After winning the Bell, losing only to Wit in that kind of game, we all will be watching to see what the committee does, particularly after last year.  Wabash's merits are better than they were a year ago, so to leave them out if they finish 9-1 would lead me to think of expressions I cannot openly repeat. 
       

[ohiofan1954]

Since I was not able to post a picture here of the pass interference call I have posted it on the Wabash facebook page. You be the judge. It is obviously a underthrown ball.

[Wabash Hokie]

I have not been able to get on here earlier.  I, too, attended the game and share my frustration as a rabid fan of the Little Giants.  Congratulations to Wittenberg on the win.  I thought both crucial penalty calls were correct, even though the holding call was behind the play and in my view did not affect the execution of the play. It was out in the open with the referee standing only a few yards away.  And as Wally has pointed out the pass interference is the way the game is called today, even though the throw was short and would have never been completed.
     The ref crew yesterday--if that's the best the NCAC can muster up for a championship game (someone said they could only believe the conference would send its best crew), Well, um . . .This is not critique of any particular call (again, I think the most crucial calls were correct),  but the the white cap could hardly run down the field or bend over.  No matter the calls, that doesn't inspire much confidence when tough calls are made.
     In this game, on Saturday, Witt made the two most important plays--the blocked punt that gave them a very short field, and the fumble recovery and TD run following a hard hit on the Wabash QB.  These were not Unforced Errors (as someone earlier pointed out).  They were very much FORCED by an opportunistic Wittenberg defense.  And Wit took advantage.
     Which team is better.  I'm a Wabash fan, so I think Wabash is still the better team overall.  Witt was better yesterday because they scored more points.   Statistics, as they say are for losers, and while they may be instructive about the relative strengths of the two teams, only the final result really matters.
     So, I'm hoping for Witt to represent the NCAC well, and I'm confident that Wabash will keep the Bell and, that happening, be chosen for the playoffs.  After winning the Bell, losing only to Wit in that kind of game, we all will be watching to see what the committee does, particularly after last year.  Wabash's merits are better than they were a year ago, so to leave them out if they finish 9-1 would lead me to think of expressions I cannot openly repeat. 
       

Congrats to Witt - they did what they had to do to win the game.  Their passing game (just over 50% completion rate) was better than Wabash's 38% - both teams attempted 29 passes; and Witt's 3rd down conversions, while held to 33% (5 of 15) was never-the-less a hell of a lot better than Wabash's atrocious 2 for 14.  On Saturday, Witt made the key plays and Wabash did not.  No one is talking about that 3rd and 20 pass completion that extended their possession late in the 4th quarter.  Witt found a way to beat Wabash - again.  You gotta beat the champions to be the champions and Wabash has not done that.


Regarding the quarterback play, neither QB performed to expectation.  For me, the lack of a complementary passing game is the chink in Wabash's armor.  Yes, Wabash ran the ball well but, when we did not (or could not), our passes were all over the place (based on what I could tell from the telecast - I was not there in person).  Yes, it was windy but Witt's guys managed to complete some critical passes - not so for Wabash.  Be honest - did anyone have any confidence or expectation that Wabash would convert with a pass on 4th and 13?  I certainly had high hopes but my expectations were lower than whale excrement at that point.   


In the first game of the season vs Butler, I queried as to whether Witt was that good or Butler that bad?  Butler has indeed slipped this year but Witt showed early on that they were going to be able to reload from last year's losses. So...


Here come the Dannies, having whooped on Hiram, and thinking they are going to take it to the Little Giants this year.  Wabash will still make the playoffs if they win.


Given the Dannies 7-2 record, if Wabash wins, would the margin of victory have any impact on their "seeding"? 


Yes, Kreskin still thinks that Wabash wins and the sun rises in the east.  I am just wondering if there is any reason for Wabash to call off the dogs in the 4th quarter.

[Li'l Giant]

Regarding the quarterback play, neither QB performed to expectation.  For me, the lack of a complementary passing game is the chink in Wabash's armor.  Yes, Wabash ran the ball well but, when we did not (or could not), our passes were all over the place (based on what I could tell from the telecast - I was not there in person).  Yes, it was windy but Witt's guys managed to complete some critical passes - not so for Wabash.  Be honest - did anyone have any confidence or expectation that Wabash would convert with a pass on 4th and 13?  I certainly had high hopes but my expectations were lower than whale excrement at that point.   

I felt the same way on the 4th and 13 and the last possession Hail Mary.

As for the "chink in the armor" this has come up in a few offline conversations this season. This doesn't manifest itself against Kenyon/Oberlin/Hiram etc. But against Witt? Yeah, it's going to matter.

Putko's play was pretty darn good in last year's Bell Game. It's not like he's not capable. This year's Tigers are not last year's Tigers. Wabash won't walk over DPU like they're Hiram. But they can't be 2-14 on 3rd down and expect to keep the Bell either. There's a happy medium where Wabash plays better than last week and if they do, they'll keep the Bell.

[izzy stradlin]

Schwami wasn't beat down because of his congrats to Witt. He was called out because of an errant observation. Witt won the game, but they weren't the best team on the field, and I did offer my wish that they represent well.

The team who wins the game in a competition is, by definition, the best team on the field.  Otherwise you need to change the rules of the game.

Play that game 100 times, the outcome probably would be 70-30 in Wabash's favor.

Also, in that case, teams would never lose to underdogs. Chaminade would never beat Virginia. Oberlin would never have beaten Wabash in 2012.

I am only talking about the best team on that field (for that one game on that one day).  You may be right on with your 70-30 prediction but that's pure speculation. Since I haven't watched either team much, I can't argue with that. 

     Which team is better. I'm a Wabash fan, so I think Wabash is still the better team overall.  Witt was better yesterday because they scored more points.   Statistics, as they say are for losers, and while they may be instructive about the relative strengths of the two teams, only the final result really matters.       

Exactly.  Sigma even acknowledged his inability to be objective given he is a Wabash fan.  Well put. 

[wally_wabash]

One thing that I think we're overlooking a bit as we dissect the quarterback play from Saturday is that Wittenberg's secondary is really good.  Like really really good.  BashDad pointed that out during game week.  Wabash was 11-29 passing which isn't great, but it's not all bad throws and missing receivers there.  Wittenberg was credited with eight pass break ups in the game- that's a giant number.  27.5% of Wabash's passes were broken up by Wittenberg defenders.  Part of going 11-29 passing is about guys not getting very open, and Wittenberg's coverage was great all day.  And it's not just the incompletions and pass break ups either- on the critical fumble, that play only lasts long enough for a strip sack to happen because nobody gets open.  And that's not me shifting criticism to the wideouts...we know those guys are plenty good.  That's me saying Witt's DBs were excellent. 

[bashgiant]

Interesting points all. I don't claim to know all the rules and I'm not good at spotting the finer things that are penalties as others, however I do have this observation. The home team should never complain about officiating. Haven't heard anyone from Wittenberg complain about the officiating yesterday but if they had I wouldn't want to hear it. Another thing is that I am sure the NCAC had the #1 officiating crew working that game yesterday. Would you want the crew that worked say the Kenyon game? I thought the pass interference penalty at the end was correct, once again I am not up on the finer points of that penalty buy I have a good picture of the play and I think it is obvious.

I pulled up the archived video last night to look at these two plays in particular.  On the 4th and 3, the Wabash offensive lineman pulled a guy down from behind....it was behind the play and out in the wide open and it was a pretty easy call to make.  I didn't get a good look at the interference in person and the video doesn't have a good look at it either, so who knows. From what I could see, the pass was very underthrown, Witt's receiver stopped abruptly to come back to the ball and got himself run into by the Wabash DB.  It today's football, that's a foul on the defense.  That's a tough break where Witt gets a bail out on a bad throw, but that's how the game is called today.

If I was a coach this would be my go to play on 3rd and forever. I'm surprised it's not used more often as a play. Really need to change that type of play to incidental contact. From what I saw the Wabash defender actually had a better chance to catch the ball and could have easily been called offensive pass interference. JMHO.
GO BASH!!

[sigma one]

Before we move on--quickly I hope--to the future, it's worth noting that Wabash and Wittenberg play in Wabash's third game next fall, on September 26, in Crawfordsville . So no more late season determinations on who will/might win the NCAC.  Wabash opens with Hampden-Sydney and Allegheny, and then the Old Tigers.  Witt opens with Capital (no more Butler) and OWU, and then the LGs.     I'm not discounting any of the other NCAC teams, but historically it's been these two slamming into each other for the title.
     Quick turn around between the two teams.
     Now back to regular programming.  It's Bell Week! 

[BashDad]

One thing that I think we're overlooking a bit as we dissect the quarterback play from Saturday is that Wittenberg's secondary is really good.  Like really really good.  BashDad pointed that out during game week.  Wabash was 11-29 passing which isn't great, but it's not all bad throws and missing receivers there.  Wittenberg was credited with eight pass break ups in the game- that's a giant number.  27.5% of Wabash's passes were broken up by Wittenberg defenders.  Part of going 11-29 passing is about guys not getting very open, and Wittenberg's coverage was great all day.  And it's not just the incompletions and pass break ups either- on the critical fumble, that play only lasts long enough for a strip sack to happen because nobody gets open.  And that's not me shifting criticism to the wideouts...we know those guys are plenty good.  That's me saying Witt's DBs were excellent.

Agreed. Witt's D is legit.

[firstdown]

First, congrats to Wittenberg for winning on Saturday.  Good luck the rest of the way.

I agree with Sigma One that if this is the best ref crew that the North Coast Conference has, it is in deep trouble.  For the record, I noted that this crew had demonstrated serious shortcomings in an earlier game this year that Wabash won handily.  Why wouldn't the Conference send its best crew for the game to decide the conference championship?  There were too many weird calls and no calls on Saturday, and the play clock was insane at times.  With the exception of the pass interference call in the 4th quarter which was pretty cheesy and being biased of course, appeared to be more offensive than defensive, the generally poor job by the ref crew didn't impact the ultimate outcome of the game.  Nonetheless, both the Witt and Wabash players deserve better.

That said, time to put this all behind us.  It is Monon Bell Week and the Bell needs to stay home in C'ville for another year.

[BashDad]

Pressure on Hunt. That's it.

Wabash checks that box, they win (by a lot). Wabash doesn't check that box, DPU will score points and we'll have a game.

[wally_wabash]

Before we move on--quickly I hope--to the future, it's worth noting that Wabash and Wittenberg play in Wabash's third game next fall, on September 26, in Crawfordsville . So no more late season determinations on who will/might win the NCAC.  Wabash opens with Hampden-Sydney and Allegheny, and then the Old Tigers.  Witt opens with Capital (no more Butler) and OWU, and then the LGs.     I'm not discounting any of the other NCAC teams, but historically it's been these two slamming into each other for the title.
     Quick turn around between the two teams.
     Now back to regular programming.  It's Bell Week!

I think DePauw is in play for the league title next year.  They'll get Witt and Wabash at home next year and if they can solve the OWU riddle in 2015, I think they'll have a decent chance to get into Bell Week with one or zero conference losses and we very well might be playing the feud next year for all the marbles.  Or some three way split of the marbles. 

[bashbrother]

Not in any way to blame the officiating for the result.... we made more than enough bad mistakes to lose this one without them.

Here is a no call that is pretty much text book holding.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1798535_10203220908145835_294170658217705772_n.jpg?oh=c77d3c47e4292b8f4cb887de782ccc70&oe=54D71E8F&__gda__=1423496247_1f8a1cb2848b744f0583ba4fb14b8574