FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[emma17]

Who gives Mt Union a better game this year- Wash and Jeff or NCC?
I realize W&J isn't a Pool C, but the point is valid.   

No, this is a red herring and completely unrelated to picking at-large teams.

For all the hand-wringing over the system, UWO had a clearly defined path to the postseason available to it from Day One and it failed to follow that path. If a committee led by a WIAC AD and former coach didn't put them in the field, then they were not going to get in. We can talk all we want about them having "just one loss" but South Dakota State was the only game on its schedule that was completely unwinnable. Some defense in the final 45 seconds vs. Marian makes UWO 7-3 and the Titans were a touchdown away or less from RMU-Chicago the entire fourth quarter.

We should not give UWO a pass just because those schools have some scholarships. A team from the almighty WIAC can and should beat them.

Thanks for dive bombing with your "almighty" comment Pat- you set an excellent example of a classy leader.

[smedindy]

NC could have been hurt by the CCIW's lack of depth this year, which is a weird thing to type.

I don't know if the committee looks at 10-team leagues and gives those teams some degree benefits of doubt? Their SOS is pretty limited on how far it can rise of fall. Del Val and Wabash had the good fortune of playing their one non-conference team against an excellent opponent. Muhlenberg, alas, played a Wilkes team that fell apart the last part of the year. Many of us have discussed that 10-team leagues have to be strategic in scheduling non-conference games, where everyone plays a winnable game and isn't just a whipping boy for another team. (That means, I guess, Oberlin and Kenyon fight over Earlham?)

[emma17]

This is fun to read.  My question is, why should a team that had a chance to beat the powers and failed deserve another chance to beat them just because the game was close? I agree with Smed, there has to be a way to judge the teams other than "I think they are better because they play in so and so league".

As for Muhlenberg, if not for some crazy stuff at the end of the Widener game they would be playing against Linfield this week.  In the final 8 and kill any argument that they didn't deserve to get in.  Maybe UWO would be in the same position, but you never know.  I am pretty sure that Muhlenberg would have beaten CNU and I am using the eye test on that one, not any stats.

So Wesleydad, how do you reconcile the bolded comment with TLU getting in?

Please don't fall prey to those that want to make this about so and so league.  It's really easy.  All D3 teams from around the country-  Win your conference and get into the playoffs.  Once you're in the playoffs, do something to make a lasting impression.  That way, your team can contribute to the pedigree of your program, helping them in future years to give confidence to the selection committee.   

[wally_wabash]

No, the point isn't moot because we're not talking about whether the committee followed the selection rules as they stand now. 

Pat and Wally,
I thought we were discussing a change to the Pool B and C process.  There are no red herrings.  The point is, if the Pool B and C process was different and the committee was truly trying to field the most competitive teams with the best chance of knocking off the best of the best, teams like NCC and UWO would be playing IMO.

Right, but based on what?  What did either of those teams do in 2014 that make them clearly and obviously better choices for at-large invitation than the teams that were selected?  "Pedigree" is not an acceptable answer.  That's just a fun word we're tossing around to identify teams that you have an affinity for.  We can't discriminate based on name branding.

[smedindy]

It's not without reason that Muhlenberg could be in the final eight. They probably would be favored against CNU. Again, the only "B" or "C" that was outclassed was Centre, but they were 10-0 AND playing a JCU team that legitimately could beat Mt. Union Saturday.

There are just a small handful of teams that can hang with a Purple on an ad-hoc (not conference basis). I think it matters if you see them year over year over year. There is some continuity. But to waltz in to a Purple and be competitive is rare except for a very select few. I don't think this years NC squad could really hang with Mt. Union nor Whitewater any closer than Wabash did after seeing them over the past few weeks. I'll be interested to see Wartburg's result - they're consensus among the leaders of the second tier (behind UW-W, Mt. Union, Wesley, UMHB and Linfield) and we should see what the gap is there.

TLU's second crack at UMHB was different - no doubt because of familiarity and they had a good game plan (and the weather helped...)

Yes, I am putting Linfield as part of that group. They did lose, somehow, to a 5-4 team. But anyone waltzing into Belton and winning is surely elite.

[smedindy]

I really want my archrivals 2010 playoff appearance affecting my 2015 playoff chances, I really do....

I don't think we want a 2016 Central team to have it's playoff fate decided by 2014 Wartburg.

Each team is different. Each year is different. We must look at everything in a vacuum from this year's results, not teams that don't exist anymore.

[smedindy]

BTW, I have the best dog in the world. It has no pedigree. It's a weird fox terrier / corgi / dachshund mix that is all black except for one white paw. The AKC would laugh at it. But it's the best.

[wesleydad]

This is fun to read.  My question is, why should a team that had a chance to beat the powers and failed deserve another chance to beat them just because the game was close? I agree with Smed, there has to be a way to judge the teams other than "I think they are better because they play in so and so league".

As for Muhlenberg, if not for some crazy stuff at the end of the Widener game they would be playing against Linfield this week.  In the final 8 and kill any argument that they didn't deserve to get in.  Maybe UWO would be in the same position, but you never know.  I am pretty sure that Muhlenberg would have beaten CNU and I am using the eye test on that one, not any stats.

So Wesleydad, how do you reconcile the bolded comment with TLU getting in?

Please don't fall prey to those that want to make this about so and so league.  It's really easy.  All D3 teams from around the country-  Win your conference and get into the playoffs.  Once you're in the playoffs, do something to make a lasting impression.  That way, your team can contribute to the pedigree of your program, helping them in future years to give confidence to the selection committee.   

Emma, In the end, "based on pedigree", ends up being about so and so leagues.  Only so many leagues have it.  Some leagues will never have it, but that does not mean that a team from that league can not play against the big boys.  I just think they should have just a much of a chance.

As for TLU, if they are not selected as the B, then I don't think they should get in based on the same reason I stated earlier.  Why the committee makes them the second B seems to be on the overall criteria with great emphasis on SOS.  That is where I agree with you, they got trounced the first time against UMHB.  The way they played the second time seems to strengthen your argument.

[emma17]

No, the point isn't moot because we're not talking about whether the committee followed the selection rules as they stand now. 

Pat and Wally,
I thought we were discussing a change to the Pool B and C process.  There are no red herrings.  The point is, if the Pool B and C process was different and the committee was truly trying to field the most competitive teams with the best chance of knocking off the best of the best, teams like NCC and UWO would be playing IMO.

Right, but based on what?  What did either of those teams do in 2014 that make them clearly and obviously better choices for at-large invitation than the teams that were selected?  "Pedigree" is not an acceptable answer.  That's just a fun word we're tossing around to identify teams that you have an affinity for.  We can't discriminate based on name branding.

Can I use recent track record in its place?
What did NCC do?  They lost by a field goal in the closing seconds to WC, an undefeated team.  They had what I imagine you'd call a bad loss to UWSP.  They beat a very good UWP team.  In their two losses, both games were the sort that could have gone either way.  Thus, they proved they might be a team that can beat the best of the best.
UWO played a very difficult non-conf schedule despite the misconceptions of this board's leader.  They had to play that schedule you know why?  Pedigree.  Oops, I mean recent track record.  Or how about reputation in the D3 football community. Or should I call it standing or esteem or respectability?  Whatever it's called, UWO had to play non D3 teams for that reason.  That's fair to the UWO players how? 
Anyway, UWO played a very good UWW team strongly (unlike the result TLU had when it played a similarly strong D3 team).  And UWO beat a highly regarded UWP team.     

[smedindy]

"B" is a different beast. The South had to have TLU ranked over Centre. Here's where I think Framingham may have a beef or two, and maybe their beef is with the East committee and how they finally ranked teams. Certainly more of a beef than Oshkosh. Chicago, TLU, Centre and Framingham were all good choices for a "B" after Wesley, but two were in the South. That must have been an interesting selection.

[emma17]

I really want my archrivals 2010 playoff appearance affecting my 2015 playoff chances, I really do....

I don't think we want a 2016 Central team to have it's playoff fate decided by 2014 Wartburg.

Each team is different. Each year is different. We must look at everything in a vacuum from this year's results, not teams that don't exist anymore.

You argue like a child. 

[emma17]

This is fun to read.  My question is, why should a team that had a chance to beat the powers and failed deserve another chance to beat them just because the game was close? I agree with Smed, there has to be a way to judge the teams other than "I think they are better because they play in so and so league".

As for Muhlenberg, if not for some crazy stuff at the end of the Widener game they would be playing against Linfield this week.  In the final 8 and kill any argument that they didn't deserve to get in.  Maybe UWO would be in the same position, but you never know.  I am pretty sure that Muhlenberg would have beaten CNU and I am using the eye test on that one, not any stats.

So Wesleydad, how do you reconcile the bolded comment with TLU getting in?

Please don't fall prey to those that want to make this about so and so league.  It's really easy.  All D3 teams from around the country-  Win your conference and get into the playoffs.  Once you're in the playoffs, do something to make a lasting impression.  That way, your team can contribute to the pedigree of your program, helping them in future years to give confidence to the selection committee.   

Emma, In the end, "based on pedigree", ends up being about so and so leagues.  Only so many leagues have it.  Some leagues will never have it, but that does not mean that a team from that league can not play against the big boys.  I just think they should have just a much of a chance.

As for TLU, if they are not selected as the B, then I don't think they should get in based on the same reason I stated earlier.  Why the committee makes them the second B seems to be on the overall criteria with great emphasis on SOS.  That is where I agree with you, they got trounced the first time against UMHB.  The way they played the second time seems to strengthen your argument.

But it doesn't have to be about so and so leagues does it?  After all, what if Adrian played Mt Union to a 14 point loss this year.  Are you suggesting that result wouldn't be a positive factor to the committee next year if Adrian finishes 9-1 with their only conference loss being to an undefeated Trine? 

[smedindy]

The WIAC always has issues in scheduling. So does the NWC, SCIAC, ASC and SCAC. The NWC adn SCIAC also play mostly 9-game schedules.

In the WIAC's case, though, they have 3 non-conference games to slate. Their neighbors (IIAC, MIAC, UMAC, MWC) don't have as many as the WIAC does. The MWC's divisional aspect may now allow for more (maybe) wiggle room but teams seem to be wanting to schedule their old rivals even if they're in another division. And what, really, good would it do for Oshkosh to go play Ripon or Beloit? Wheaton gets slammed for feasting on the MIAA once a year.

Scheduling is a bear, for sure. It takes two, and travel and budget consideration are also involved. Does Oshkosh have the budget to travel to UMHB for a home-and-home? Can they get to Redlands without screwing something else up? Plus, you don't know how good or bad teams will be in the future. Ask Centre, because this year's schedule looked great a couple of years ago.

[smedindy]

I really want my archrivals 2010 playoff appearance affecting my 2015 playoff chances, I really do....

I don't think we want a 2016 Central team to have it's playoff fate decided by 2014 Wartburg.

Each team is different. Each year is different. We must look at everything in a vacuum from this year's results, not teams that don't exist anymore.

You argue like a child.

That is what you are implying, though. My team's playoff chances will be affected by other teams in my conference that don't exist anymore.

[smedindy]

This is fun to read.  My question is, why should a team that had a chance to beat the powers and failed deserve another chance to beat them just because the game was close? I agree with Smed, there has to be a way to judge the teams other than "I think they are better because they play in so and so league".

As for Muhlenberg, if not for some crazy stuff at the end of the Widener game they would be playing against Linfield this week.  In the final 8 and kill any argument that they didn't deserve to get in.  Maybe UWO would be in the same position, but you never know.  I am pretty sure that Muhlenberg would have beaten CNU and I am using the eye test on that one, not any stats.

So Wesleydad, how do you reconcile the bolded comment with TLU getting in?

Please don't fall prey to those that want to make this about so and so league.  It's really easy.  All D3 teams from around the country-  Win your conference and get into the playoffs.  Once you're in the playoffs, do something to make a lasting impression.  That way, your team can contribute to the pedigree of your program, helping them in future years to give confidence to the selection committee.   

Emma, In the end, "based on pedigree", ends up being about so and so leagues.  Only so many leagues have it.  Some leagues will never have it, but that does not mean that a team from that league can not play against the big boys.  I just think they should have just a much of a chance.

As for TLU, if they are not selected as the B, then I don't think they should get in based on the same reason I stated earlier.  Why the committee makes them the second B seems to be on the overall criteria with great emphasis on SOS.  That is where I agree with you, they got trounced the first time against UMHB.  The way they played the second time seems to strengthen your argument.

But it doesn't have to be about so and so leagues does it?  After all, what if Adrian played Mt Union to a 14 point loss this year.  Are you suggesting that result wouldn't be a positive factor to the committee next year if Adrian finishes 9-1 with their only conference loss being to an undefeated Trine?

That's not the same Adrian team, though. Maybe the 2015 Adrian team played Earlham, Manchester, Rockford and Oberlin in non-conference? Whoop-de-damn-do, then. I'd better go 4-0 against that non-conference slate.

Wabash, 2011, almost beat Mt. Union at Mt. Union. Our QBs were injured; their QBs were hurt. No matter, we had them on the ropes and they did their normal Mt. Union thing and slipped away.

Wabash, 2012, went 8-2. Somehow lost two conference games to Allegheny and Oberlin. Yet, had there been another spot in the playoff we may have made it in.

Wabash, 2013, went 9-1. Didn't make it. Many complained we should have, but we ran afoul of the SOS and RR gods. Alas.

Our 2011 team didn't affect our 2012 or 2013 team. It shouldn't have. That 2011 team doesn't lose to Oberlin. Yet with many of the same players as there was in 2011 that played in 2012, they lost to Oberlin. Pedigree, schmedigree. The team on the field is the one that exists.