FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[miac952]

Agreed -- there's no absolutes there. I even asked a MIAC coach who was at the game Saturday if he were voting, would he take St. John's or Wabash higher in the Top 25, and he said: "St. John's. But wait, that's probably just because they know St. Thomas better."

Glad somebody else out there thinks that this is an important point.

There's two sides to that coin.  UST was also unfamiliar with Wabash.

Bigger deal for a D to be familiar with an O than vice versa.

St John's has that advantage because their D sees UST every year. No such luck for Wabash on that front. Also, Wabash just isn't as good offensively, so that isn't quite as big of a deal for UST's D.

It's a fun debate that is really impossible to ever come to a conclusion on. The thoughts on familiarity ring true to me. As soon as the unsportsmanlike on Wabash was flagged on the extra point for UST a whole group around us were thinking there was an 80% probability UST would onside from the 50. Worst case is the opponent is getting the ball at 35. Not a big difference from a touchback. A good handful of MIAC coaches would have been thinking the same thing. I was a little surprised Wabash wasnt prepped as well on that.

I think an SJU Wabash game would be fun to see, mostly because of the two amazing running backs that would be going toe to toe and the physical play both teams bring. I have said it before and will say it again that Wabash passed the physical muster clearly. Some teams from the east have come in to St Paul in the past with similar accolades and they didnt meet the physical muster (kind of like UST didnt in its first tussle with UWW). Wabash absolutely went toe to toe physically. I think they were missing out on having a few playmakers on both sides of the ball, a more diverse offense, and executing in big play situations.

In an SJU Wabash game I would see one major edge for each teams. SJU would have a + in qb play. Mind you this is only on seeing Wabash once. Nick Martin was very accurate this year, made huge improvement over the previous season, and also adds an element of mobility. The limited mobility of Wabash's qb really limited the offense. There was no chance against the pass rush to ever extend a play beyond a couple seconds. Wabash would have an advantage in their DL. That was a physical DL that got more pressure to Gould then I have seen all year. They also did a great job against the run, though the UST rb's were beat up and didnt play all that much. Even on some of the lazer's that Gould threw he was getting knocked down. The SJU d-line this year was a little underwhelming compared to previous ones they had. Very solid LB play out of the SJU D (fast), and nice secondary coverage (a little lacking in run stopping).

I would also be intrigued at how unique teams like Gustavus and Augsburg might have matched up against Wabash too. If you dont have the right personnel and schemes I think each of these teams could cause fits in a playoff scenario. Wabash - Concordia Moorhead to me would play out with Wabash ultimately being a bigger, stronger, and faster version of Concordia and overwhelm them.

[wally_wabash]

It's a fun debate that is really impossible to ever come to a conclusion on. The thoughts on familiarity ring true to me. As soon as the unsportsmanlike on Wabash was flagged on the extra point for UST a whole group around us were thinking there was an 80% probability UST would onside from the 50. Worst case is the opponent is getting the ball at 35. Not a big difference from a touchback. A good handful of MIAC coaches would have been thinking the same thing. I was a little surprised Wabash wasnt prepped as well on that.

Thought exactly the same thing.  That foul was basically a free pass to try the onside kick and really go for the knockout punch there.  The yardage price you generally pay for trying an onside kick and failing was given away by Wabash after the PAT (or the score...not sure exactly when the foul happened).  Up 24-0, there was room enough in the score to go for it as well.  The worst case scenario there is Wabash has the ball around the 40 down 24 points.  Not exactly playing with dynamite there.  Reward far outweighed the risk at that moment.  Unfortunately the vid feed had crapped out on me by that point in the game and I didn't get to see the play- don't know if Wabash wasn't ready for it at all or if it was just a well executed kick.  Certainly Wabash wasn't in a hands unit situation there, but I'd be shocked if they were caught completely off guard by it.   

Also brings up one other point from Saturday's game that we have to give St. Thomas credit for.  Penalties were an area where St. Thomas had been hit a bit more than Wabash had this season, but on this game day it was Wabash that really got hurt by penalties.  The foul that took away the score to open the 3rd period and then the foul that opened up the door for the onside kick were both killer penalties.  The Tommies didn't take the fouls that cost them points or important yards on Saturday, while Wabash did. 

[jamtod]

It's a fun debate that is really impossible to ever come to a conclusion on. The thoughts on familiarity ring true to me. As soon as the unsportsmanlike on Wabash was flagged on the extra point for UST a whole group around us were thinking there was an 80% probability UST would onside from the 50. Worst case is the opponent is getting the ball at 35. Not a big difference from a touchback. A good handful of MIAC coaches would have been thinking the same thing. I was a little surprised Wabash wasnt prepped as well on that.

Also brings up one other point from Saturday's game that we have to give St. Thomas credit for.  Penalties were an area where St. Thomas had been hit a bit more than Wabash had this season, but on this game day it was Wabash that really got hurt by penalties.  The foul that took away the score to open the 3rd period and then the foul that opened up the door for the onside kick were both killer penalties.  The Tommies didn't take the fouls that cost them points or important yards on Saturday, while Wabash did.

If you talk to your fellow Wabash fans, they might paint this in a little different light. They were not pleased with several of the calls that went against Wabash and felt that we should have been called for holding on every play.

Fans of losing team feel that refs are biased, film at 11.

[wally_wabash]

It's a fun debate that is really impossible to ever come to a conclusion on. The thoughts on familiarity ring true to me. As soon as the unsportsmanlike on Wabash was flagged on the extra point for UST a whole group around us were thinking there was an 80% probability UST would onside from the 50. Worst case is the opponent is getting the ball at 35. Not a big difference from a touchback. A good handful of MIAC coaches would have been thinking the same thing. I was a little surprised Wabash wasnt prepped as well on that.

Also brings up one other point from Saturday's game that we have to give St. Thomas credit for.  Penalties were an area where St. Thomas had been hit a bit more than Wabash had this season, but on this game day it was Wabash that really got hurt by penalties.  The foul that took away the score to open the 3rd period and then the foul that opened up the door for the onside kick were both killer penalties.  The Tommies didn't take the fouls that cost them points or important yards on Saturday, while Wabash did.

If you talk to your fellow Wabash fans, they might paint this in a little different light. They were not pleased with several of the calls that went against Wabash and felt that we should have been called for holding on every play.

Fans of losing team feel that refs are biased, film at 11.

Pet peeve numero uno, and I mean this bugs me more than even the blind quality-by-conference method of judging teams, is fans screaming about holding on every play.  My fans, your fans, doesn't matter.  If I could wipe out one thing and one thing only from every single Saturday, it would be fans standing and hollering about holding from 60 (or more) yards away. 

[jknezek]

Given how much we've done to protect the offense I wonder if that's the next rule to go. Or if it simply will be like palming a basketball or walking in the NBA. It's still a rule, it's just never called unless it can't be ignored.

[Westside]

Given how much we've done to protect the offense I wonder if that's the next rule to go. Or if it simply will be like palming a basketball or walking in the NBA. It's still a rule, it's just never called unless it can't be ignored.

I agree. I feel like holding is already like that, for the most part. You could honestly argue that there is holding on every play, from the defense and offense. It is, generally, only the blatant ones that get called; or the ones that are out in the open. We must cater to the offense's as much as possible!

[Joe Wally]

It's a fun debate that is really impossible to ever come to a conclusion on. The thoughts on familiarity ring true to me. As soon as the unsportsmanlike on Wabash was flagged on the extra point for UST a whole group around us were thinking there was an 80% probability UST would onside from the 50. Worst case is the opponent is getting the ball at 35. Not a big difference from a touchback. A good handful of MIAC coaches would have been thinking the same thing. I was a little surprised Wabash wasnt prepped as well on that.

Also brings up one other point from Saturday's game that we have to give St. Thomas credit for.  Penalties were an area where St. Thomas had been hit a bit more than Wabash had this season, but on this game day it was Wabash that really got hurt by penalties.  The foul that took away the score to open the 3rd period and then the foul that opened up the door for the onside kick were both killer penalties.  The Tommies didn't take the fouls that cost them points or important yards on Saturday, while Wabash did.

If you talk to your fellow Wabash fans, they might paint this in a little different light. They were not pleased with several of the calls that went against Wabash and felt that we should have been called for holding on every play.

Fans of losing team feel that refs are biased, film at 11.

Pet peeve numero uno, and I mean this bugs me more than even the blind quality-by-conference method of judging teams, is fans screaming about holding on every play.  My fans, your fans, doesn't matter.  If I could wipe out one thing and one thing only from every single Saturday, it would be fans standing and hollering about holding from 60 (or more) yards away.

Does this mean that I have to take off my aluminum foil hat?

[1837Tigers]

Congrats to former Tiger standout Rob Boras, named offensive coordinator of St. Louis Rams: http://www.depauw.edu/news-media/latest-news/details/32062/

[AO]

In case you missed the link over on the MIAC board by jamto, Charles Pierce wrote about Saturday's game for espn.com.   http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/14311042/college-football-division-iii-playoffs-game-purest

Got a chuckle from this:

Some days, you need a little, low-ceilinged press box where everyone is jammed in, including the coaches from the visiting team, so you can hear them agonizing over their headsets, calling an assistant down on the sidelines an idiot, and calling one of their linebackers a "lazy f---," and nobody in the press box turns a head.

Any guesses who the coach and linebacker were?  Always fun to get a little behind the scenes peek.

[bashbrother]

Congrats to Mason Zurek...  North Region Offensive Player of the Year!   

Congrats to Erik Raeburn  -  North Region Coach of the Year.

Great Stuff!

[Pat Coleman]

It's a fun debate that is really impossible to ever come to a conclusion on. The thoughts on familiarity ring true to me. As soon as the unsportsmanlike on Wabash was flagged on the extra point for UST a whole group around us were thinking there was an 80% probability UST would onside from the 50. Worst case is the opponent is getting the ball at 35. Not a big difference from a touchback. A good handful of MIAC coaches would have been thinking the same thing. I was a little surprised Wabash wasnt prepped as well on that.

Also brings up one other point from Saturday's game that we have to give St. Thomas credit for.  Penalties were an area where St. Thomas had been hit a bit more than Wabash had this season, but on this game day it was Wabash that really got hurt by penalties.  The foul that took away the score to open the 3rd period and then the foul that opened up the door for the onside kick were both killer penalties.  The Tommies didn't take the fouls that cost them points or important yards on Saturday, while Wabash did.

If you talk to your fellow Wabash fans, they might paint this in a little different light. They were not pleased with several of the calls that went against Wabash and felt that we should have been called for holding on every play.

Fans of losing team feel that refs are biased, film at 11.

Pet peeve numero uno, and I mean this bugs me more than even the blind quality-by-conference method of judging teams, is fans screaming about holding on every play.  My fans, your fans, doesn't matter.  If I could wipe out one thing and one thing only from every single Saturday, it would be fans standing and hollering about holding from 60 (or more) yards away.

Try being in the press box and hearing coaches in the coaches' box doing the same ...

[formerd3db]

It's a fun debate that is really impossible to ever come to a conclusion on. The thoughts on familiarity ring true to me. As soon as the unsportsmanlike on Wabash was flagged on the extra point for UST a whole group around us were thinking there was an 80% probability UST would onside from the 50. Worst case is the opponent is getting the ball at 35. Not a big difference from a touchback. A good handful of MIAC coaches would have been thinking the same thing. I was a little surprised Wabash wasnt prepped as well on that.

Also brings up one other point from Saturday's game that we have to give St. Thomas credit for.  Penalties were an area where St. Thomas had been hit a bit more than Wabash had this season, but on this game day it was Wabash that really got hurt by penalties.  The foul that took away the score to open the 3rd period and then the foul that opened up the door for the onside kick were both killer penalties.  The Tommies didn't take the fouls that cost them points or important yards on Saturday, while Wabash did.

If you talk to your fellow Wabash fans, they might paint this in a little different light. They were not pleased with several of the calls that went against Wabash and felt that we should have been called for holding on every play.

Fans of losing team feel that refs are biased, film at 11.

Pet peeve numero uno, and I mean this bugs me more than even the blind quality-by-conference method of judging teams, is fans screaming about holding on every play.  My fans, your fans, doesn't matter.  If I could wipe out one thing and one thing only from every single Saturday, it would be fans standing and hollering about holding from 60 (or more) yards away.

Try being in the press box and hearing coaches in the coaches' box doing the same ...

Add to that being on the sidelines and seeing it actually happen right in front of you!   The fact [problem] is, it does happen and not called enough, IMO.  

[Mr. Ypsi]

It's a fun debate that is really impossible to ever come to a conclusion on. The thoughts on familiarity ring true to me. As soon as the unsportsmanlike on Wabash was flagged on the extra point for UST a whole group around us were thinking there was an 80% probability UST would onside from the 50. Worst case is the opponent is getting the ball at 35. Not a big difference from a touchback. A good handful of MIAC coaches would have been thinking the same thing. I was a little surprised Wabash wasnt prepped as well on that.

Also brings up one other point from Saturday's game that we have to give St. Thomas credit for.  Penalties were an area where St. Thomas had been hit a bit more than Wabash had this season, but on this game day it was Wabash that really got hurt by penalties.  The foul that took away the score to open the 3rd period and then the foul that opened up the door for the onside kick were both killer penalties.  The Tommies didn't take the fouls that cost them points or important yards on Saturday, while Wabash did.

If you talk to your fellow Wabash fans, they might paint this in a little different light. They were not pleased with several of the calls that went against Wabash and felt that we should have been called for holding on every play.

Fans of losing team feel that refs are biased, film at 11.

Pet peeve numero uno, and I mean this bugs me more than even the blind quality-by-conference method of judging teams, is fans screaming about holding on every play.  My fans, your fans, doesn't matter.  If I could wipe out one thing and one thing only from every single Saturday, it would be fans standing and hollering about holding from 60 (or more) yards away.

Try being in the press box and hearing coaches in the coaches' box doing the same ...

Add to that being on the sidelines and seeing it actually happen right in front of you!   The fact [problem] is, it does happen and not called enough, IMO.

I think it is going the way of traveling in the NBA - happens so often games would be unwatchable if called as written, so is called in only the most blatant cases.

[NewHawk]

It's a fun debate that is really impossible to ever come to a conclusion on. The thoughts on familiarity ring true to me. As soon as the unsportsmanlike on Wabash was flagged on the extra point for UST a whole group around us were thinking there was an 80% probability UST would onside from the 50. Worst case is the opponent is getting the ball at 35. Not a big difference from a touchback. A good handful of MIAC coaches would have been thinking the same thing. I was a little surprised Wabash wasnt prepped as well on that.

Also brings up one other point from Saturday's game that we have to give St. Thomas credit for.  Penalties were an area where St. Thomas had been hit a bit more than Wabash had this season, but on this game day it was Wabash that really got hurt by penalties.  The foul that took away the score to open the 3rd period and then the foul that opened up the door for the onside kick were both killer penalties.  The Tommies didn't take the fouls that cost them points or important yards on Saturday, while Wabash did.

If you talk to your fellow Wabash fans, they might paint this in a little different light. They were not pleased with several of the calls that went against Wabash and felt that we should have been called for holding on every play.

Fans of losing team feel that refs are biased, film at 11.

Pet peeve numero uno, and I mean this bugs me more than even the blind quality-by-conference method of judging teams, is fans screaming about holding on every play.  My fans, your fans, doesn't matter.  If I could wipe out one thing and one thing only from every single Saturday, it would be fans standing and hollering about holding from 60 (or more) yards away.

Try being in the press box and hearing coaches in the coaches' box doing the same ...

Add to that being on the sidelines and seeing it actually happen right in front of you!   The fact [problem] is, it does happen and not called enough, IMO.

If I can see it in the stands 60 yards away then a ref should be able to see it from 10 ft.  If a defensive lineman's jersey is being yanked down around his knees then its probably holding.  The ref's have completely moved away from calling it even when it is blatant.  It does happen on every play and since the refs refuse to call it consistently the o-lines know they can get away with it 99% of the time and are becoming more bold in the way they go about it. 

[jknezek]

I highly doubt there is a coach out there that doesn't tell his o-line to start the game holding as much as isn't blatant. If it gets called, back off a bit. If it doesn't, carry on until it does. There just isn't a reason NOT to push that rule as much as possible.

Sports are entertainment, and if the entertainment clashes with the rule, the rule tends to lose. See the 5 step layup or dunk in basketball. The sole exception is the brutal hits in football, which are highly entertaining but are going to cause immense amounts of grief, and cash, to the sport if they are allowed to continue.