FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[wally_wabash]

It's a fun debate that is really impossible to ever come to a conclusion on. The thoughts on familiarity ring true to me. As soon as the unsportsmanlike on Wabash was flagged on the extra point for UST a whole group around us were thinking there was an 80% probability UST would onside from the 50. Worst case is the opponent is getting the ball at 35. Not a big difference from a touchback. A good handful of MIAC coaches would have been thinking the same thing. I was a little surprised Wabash wasnt prepped as well on that.

Also brings up one other point from Saturday's game that we have to give St. Thomas credit for.  Penalties were an area where St. Thomas had been hit a bit more than Wabash had this season, but on this game day it was Wabash that really got hurt by penalties.  The foul that took away the score to open the 3rd period and then the foul that opened up the door for the onside kick were both killer penalties.  The Tommies didn't take the fouls that cost them points or important yards on Saturday, while Wabash did.

If you talk to your fellow Wabash fans, they might paint this in a little different light. They were not pleased with several of the calls that went against Wabash and felt that we should have been called for holding on every play.

Fans of losing team feel that refs are biased, film at 11.

Pet peeve numero uno, and I mean this bugs me more than even the blind quality-by-conference method of judging teams, is fans screaming about holding on every play.  My fans, your fans, doesn't matter.  If I could wipe out one thing and one thing only from every single Saturday, it would be fans standing and hollering about holding from 60 (or more) yards away.

Try being in the press box and hearing coaches in the coaches' box doing the same ...

Add to that being on the sidelines and seeing it actually happen right in front of you!   The fact [problem] is, it does happen and not called enough, IMO.

If I can see it in the stands 60 yards away then a ref should be able to see it from 10 ft.  If a defensive lineman's jersey is being yanked down around his knees then its probably holding.  The ref's have completely moved away from calling it even when it is blatant.  It does happen on every play and since the refs refuse to call it consistently the o-lines know they can get away with it 99% of the time and are becoming more bold in the way they go about it.

Do you stand and yell at game officials when they miss a hold on your team's offensive linemen?

[Desertraider]

It's a fun debate that is really impossible to ever come to a conclusion on. The thoughts on familiarity ring true to me. As soon as the unsportsmanlike on Wabash was flagged on the extra point for UST a whole group around us were thinking there was an 80% probability UST would onside from the 50. Worst case is the opponent is getting the ball at 35. Not a big difference from a touchback. A good handful of MIAC coaches would have been thinking the same thing. I was a little surprised Wabash wasnt prepped as well on that.

Also brings up one other point from Saturday's game that we have to give St. Thomas credit for.  Penalties were an area where St. Thomas had been hit a bit more than Wabash had this season, but on this game day it was Wabash that really got hurt by penalties.  The foul that took away the score to open the 3rd period and then the foul that opened up the door for the onside kick were both killer penalties.  The Tommies didn't take the fouls that cost them points or important yards on Saturday, while Wabash did.

If you talk to your fellow Wabash fans, they might paint this in a little different light. They were not pleased with several of the calls that went against Wabash and felt that we should have been called for holding on every play.

Fans of losing team feel that refs are biased, film at 11.

Pet peeve numero uno, and I mean this bugs me more than even the blind quality-by-conference method of judging teams, is fans screaming about holding on every play.  My fans, your fans, doesn't matter.  If I could wipe out one thing and one thing only from every single Saturday, it would be fans standing and hollering about holding from 60 (or more) yards away.

Try being in the press box and hearing coaches in the coaches' box doing the same ...

Add to that being on the sidelines and seeing it actually happen right in front of you!   The fact [problem] is, it does happen and not called enough, IMO.

If I can see it in the stands 60 yards away then a ref should be able to see it from 10 ft.  If a defensive lineman's jersey is being yanked down around his knees then its probably holding.  The ref's have completely moved away from calling it even when it is blatant.  It does happen on every play and since the refs refuse to call it consistently the o-lines know they can get away with it 99% of the time and are becoming more bold in the way they go about it.

Do you stand and yell at game officials when they miss a hold on your team's offensive linemen?

Is that a serious question? Who in their right mind would yell at officials for missing calls that would penalize your team?

[wally_wabash]

If I can see it in the stands 60 yards away then a ref should be able to see it from 10 ft.  If a defensive lineman's jersey is being yanked down around his knees then its probably holding.  The ref's have completely moved away from calling it even when it is blatant.  It does happen on every play and since the refs refuse to call it consistently the o-lines know they can get away with it 99% of the time and are becoming more bold in the way they go about it.

Do you stand and yell at game officials when they miss a hold on your team's offensive linemen?

Is that a serious question? Who in their right mind would yell at officials for missing calls that would penalize your team?

It is a serious question inasmuch as people who spend literally every single play screaming about holding against their team also refuse to acknowledge that their own guys are holding just as much and being called (or not called depending on your perspective) just as much as the other guys.  Everybody walks away thinking they got jammed by the refs and it's dumb.  Our guys got held every play and our guys never held once.  That's how this goes.  It's silly, some people flat out embarrass themselves with this, and like I said- if I could get rid of one thing on Saturdays, it would be this. 

[WarhawkDad]

It's a fun debate that is really impossible to ever come to a conclusion on. The thoughts on familiarity ring true to me. As soon as the unsportsmanlike on Wabash was flagged on the extra point for UST a whole group around us were thinking there was an 80% probability UST would onside from the 50. Worst case is the opponent is getting the ball at 35. Not a big difference from a touchback. A good handful of MIAC coaches would have been thinking the same thing. I was a little surprised Wabash wasnt prepped as well on that.

Also brings up one other point from Saturday's game that we have to give St. Thomas credit for.  Penalties were an area where St. Thomas had been hit a bit more than Wabash had this season, but on this game day it was Wabash that really got hurt by penalties.  The foul that took away the score to open the 3rd period and then the foul that opened up the door for the onside kick were both killer penalties.  The Tommies didn't take the fouls that cost them points or important yards on Saturday, while Wabash did.

If you talk to your fellow Wabash fans, they might paint this in a little different light. They were not pleased with several of the calls that went against Wabash and felt that we should have been called for holding on every play.

Fans of losing team feel that refs are biased, film at 11.

Pet peeve numero uno, and I mean this bugs me more than even the blind quality-by-conference method of judging teams, is fans screaming about holding on every play.  My fans, your fans, doesn't matter.  If I could wipe out one thing and one thing only from every single Saturday, it would be fans standing and hollering about holding from 60 (or more) yards away.

Try being in the press box and hearing coaches in the coaches' box doing the same ...

Add to that being on the sidelines and seeing it actually happen right in front of you!   The fact [problem] is, it does happen and not called enough, IMO.

If I can see it in the stands 60 yards away then a ref should be able to see it from 10 ft.  If a defensive lineman's jersey is being yanked down around his knees then its probably holding.  The ref's have completely moved away from calling it even when it is blatant.  It does happen on every play and since the refs refuse to call it consistently the o-lines know they can get away with it 99% of the time and are becoming more bold in the way they go about it.

Do you stand and yell at game officials when they miss a hold on your team's offensive linemen?

What a ridiculous question    .    Next time we play Wabash, I want to see you stand up and yell at an official for making a call that benefits your team! 

[wally_wabash]

What a ridiculous question    .    Next time we play Wabash, I want to see you stand up and yell at an official for making a call that benefits your team!

No, that's the whole point.  I don't yell at the officials.  It's pointless and you look and sound ridiculous doing it. 

I used to be Yell At The Officials Guy™, but I had an epiphany.  Realized one day that while I'm busy getting worked up and angry about some subjective nonsense that I couldn't even pretend to approach without bias and prejudice, I'm missing Wabash kicking butt.  Wabash is winning game after game after game and doing great things....and I'm  not enjoying it appropriately because I'm pissed about holding (that may or may not have even happened) or I think the ball should have been spotted half a yard one way or the other?  It's dumb.  This isn't a new thing...I got over the officials years ago.  And I don't think I've been to one game since I had that epiphany- not ONE- where I didn't shake my head at some point at some dumb thing somebody jumps up and yells at a official who 1) can't hear you and 2) doesn't care what you say. 

[jamtod]

What a ridiculous question    .    Next time we play Wabash, I want to see you stand up and yell at an official for making a call that benefits your team!

No, that's the whole point.  I don't yell at the officials.  It's pointless and you look and sound ridiculous doing it. 

I used to be Yell At The Officials Guy™, but I had an epiphany.  Realized one day that while I'm busy getting worked up and angry about some subjective nonsense that I couldn't even pretend to approach without bias and prejudice, I'm missing Wabash kicking butt.  Wabash is winning game after game after game and doing great things....and I'm  not enjoying it appropriately because I'm pissed about holding (that may or may not have even happened) or I think the ball should have been spotted half a yard one way or the other?  It's dumb.  This isn't a new thing...I got over the officials years ago.  And I don't think I've been to one game since I had that epiphany- not ONE- where I didn't shake my head at some point at some dumb thing somebody jumps up and yells at a official who 1) can't hear you and 2) doesn't care what you say.

If you are ever at a St Thomas game and you hear somebody shout during a quiet moment, "I RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE" that might be me.

[bashbrother]

At the end of the day,  during the duration of any given game at the Div. III Level,   things normally equal out.....   a questionable call or two this way....a couple that way. 

Having grown up asking my Father to not watch my baseball games when I was mound or to please control himself at my basketball or  football games  (Ask #3,  he can confirm this) ....    I may not be thrilled with some calls,  but I certainly just immediately move on.   

I am sure being an official is not an easy task.

[wabndy]

Having been a football official for high school and younger - I always wanted to invite the coaches and parents who yelled at us to come out where we were and see what we were seeing.  I'm not talking about the phantom hold or phantom knee.  Instead - to come and see how much it distracted players on the field.  Young players are conditioned to listen to their parents and listen to their coach.  If parent, coach, or the worst hybrid of all, the parentcoach, is yelling at someone - you bet junior is going to spend about 90% of his attention focused on what they are yelling at and not worrying about their position, route, etc.  I could always tell that if I had a particularly bad sideline screamer, more than one player would look at me and think "the last person coach yelled at like that on this field had to run extra laps after practice - wonder if the zebra will have to as well."


Thats not to say that there isn't an art to working an official.  If i'm on the line the same side as the coach who is right behind me and says in a clear voice "watch 57 - he's holding on every play" - I am probably going to at least make sure I steal a glance at 57 the next two or three plays to make sure i'm not missing something.


But my favorite (as in head shaking) calls happened in half of every HS freshman and below game I called.  Team A would break a long run down field and somebody on team A would be a little slow and more interested in the dandelions than the defensive coverage.  Coach would yell "just hit somebody" and sure enough junior would plow into the back a defender for a clip/illegal block twenty yards behind the ball.  That is a no-brainer TD-killing 15 yard penalty.  The coaches with half a brain will keep quiet.  The gifted parentcoaches would yell at me for throwing a flag on an illegal block that didn't affect the play. 

[joelmama]

What a ridiculous question    .    Next time we play Wabash, I want to see you stand up and yell at an official for making a call that benefits your team!

No, that's the whole point.  I don't yell at the officials.  It's pointless and you look and sound ridiculous doing it. 

I used to be Yell At The Officials Guy™, but I had an epiphany.  Realized one day that while I'm busy getting worked up and angry about some subjective nonsense that I couldn't even pretend to approach without bias and prejudice, I'm missing Wabash kicking butt.  Wabash is winning game after game after game and doing great things....and I'm  not enjoying it appropriately because I'm pissed about holding (that may or may not have even happened) or I think the ball should have been spotted half a yard one way or the other?  It's dumb.  This isn't a new thing...I got over the officials years ago.  And I don't think I've been to one game since I had that epiphany- not ONE- where I didn't shake my head at some point at some dumb thing somebody jumps up and yells at a official who 1) can't hear you and 2) doesn't care what you say.

Say it during a lull and they will most definitely hear you.  Been on the other end of it.  You cannot ignore it but you just have to know with confidence that you are right almost every time and also know that sometimes you will be wrong and that on those occasions that one  idiot was right.

[wally_wabash]

What a ridiculous question    .    Next time we play Wabash, I want to see you stand up and yell at an official for making a call that benefits your team!

No, that's the whole point.  I don't yell at the officials.  It's pointless and you look and sound ridiculous doing it. 

I used to be Yell At The Officials Guy™, but I had an epiphany.  Realized one day that while I'm busy getting worked up and angry about some subjective nonsense that I couldn't even pretend to approach without bias and prejudice, I'm missing Wabash kicking butt.  Wabash is winning game after game after game and doing great things....and I'm  not enjoying it appropriately because I'm pissed about holding (that may or may not have even happened) or I think the ball should have been spotted half a yard one way or the other?  It's dumb.  This isn't a new thing...I got over the officials years ago.  And I don't think I've been to one game since I had that epiphany- not ONE- where I didn't shake my head at some point at some dumb thing somebody jumps up and yells at a official who 1) can't hear you and 2) doesn't care what you say.

If you do it right they will hear you.  Say it during a lull and they will most definitely hear you.

Ok, so you've worked your way around 1).  There's still 2) they don't care what you have to say. 

But honestly, is that the whole deal?  Trying to get a rise out of a game official?  Just seems pointless to me. 

[formerd3db]

We could debate this forever re: officiating.  Yes, I will admit that I yell at the officials on the sideline when they miss holding calls.  Yes, I admit/agree that it is a very tough job being an official, as I'm sure everyone here will agree with that also.  I would not want to do it.  However, what I object to is officials who blatantly ignore holding calls just because they are mean spirited and have a dislike for some teams and coaches AND that does happen; I also object to officials who simply are not up-to-date on the rules and that has happened in extreme all through this season at all the NCAA divisions in football.  At those levels, there is no excuse for that at all, irrespective of the "human factor".  Those type of people in both those situations have no business being in the responsible position of an official, IMO.

All that said, despite my sincere displeasure at missed holding calls (or blatantly ignored calls or simply a wrong/missed call), as bashbrother has mentioned, I just move on.  However, that doesn't mean one can't proclaim their displeasure/disagreement about a call to an official regardless if he doesn't want to hear it and/or blocks it out in continuing to concentrate on his job responsibilities for the game!;D    Good discussion, guys.  Enjoyed everyone's comments/opinions on all sides of the issue.

[Li'l Giant]

I am sure being an official is not an easy task.

I never officiated football but I did umpire baseball for a couple of years in high school (little league and cyo). Every call is questioned vociferously by someone at every game at every level. I had parents of 12 year olds dropping F-bombs at my strike zone. At a CYO game.

It's something that would be great to rid sports of, but it's almost intrinsic.

However, what I object to is officials who blatantly ignore holding calls just because they are mean spirited and have a dislike for some teams and coaches AND that does happen

Personally, there were some coaches I couldn't stand but I saw no reason let that alter the strike zone or my call of a close tag play. The notion that some of these college officials have biases that cause them to ignore calls is kind of hard for me to believe.

[formerd3db]

I am sure being an official is not an easy task.

I never officiated football but I did umpire baseball for a couple of years in high school (little league and cyo). Every call is questioned vociferously by someone at every game at every level. I had parents of 12 year olds dropping F-bombs at my strike zone. At a CYO game.

It's something that would be great to rid sports of, but it's almost intrinsic.

However, what I object to is officials who blatantly ignore holding calls just because they are mean spirited and have a dislike for some teams and coaches AND that does happen

Personally, there were some coaches I couldn't stand but I saw no reason let that alter the strike zone or my call of a close tag play. The notion that some of these college officials have biases that cause them to ignore calls is kind of hard for me to believe.

Li'l Giant:

You and I have been on these boards for quite a long time and I've always enjoyed and respected your posts.  I also certainly believe that you are not the type of official who would pull the kind of stunts (and that is what I will call them) I've talked about.  However, please know that while I in no way am saying that there is a great number of officials who act that way because I believe the overwhelming number have great integrity.  Yet, while you may find it difficult to believe, I truly know of a few situations where that is indeed the case, so I hope you are not questioning my integrity in relating what I and some others have experienced, seen/witnessed.  Believe me, those rare instances which this has occurred are just that rare and isolated, but...they did (and do) occur, as sad as that may be.  I'm sure you will acknowledge that there are indeed always a few vindictive people in the world in any of life's situations.  Anyway, I do respect your opinion on this one too.

[Li'l Giant]

so I hope you are not questioning my integrity in relating what I and some others have experienced, seen/witnessed.

I'm not questioning your integrity in the least, Doc. I just find it hard to believe from the official's point of view.

[wabco]

former d3db ...

here is a true story which is also meant to give perspective that the refs are doing the best they can and we all need to be in good spirits about it.

As you know, Wabash used to regularly play Hope.  It goes back all the way to the old Hope field which had wooden stands for the home team with a wooden roof over it and portables for the visitors.  My recollection of the games were that they were spirited and good games with the coaches, players, and fans respecting each other.  Almost more of an "outing" with jibes going back and forth ... and also aimed at refs.  You may recall, Judge John Steketee (a good Hollander) in addition to being Judge was also a referee for many of those games.  I practiced law before him and would sit in the front row of the bleachers and give him the raspberries from the Wabash side.  He would get me back that next week when he could work me in the courthouse.

Well, this one game, just before half (last play as time ran out) Hope broke a long run for a touchdown ... which ... right in front of me ... a "Hopee" blocked a Little Giant in the back during the play (having nothing to do with the play).  The Judge was also right in front of me, ... also saw the infraction, and flagged it.  Of course the Wabash side was deliriously happy and Hope could not believe this could happen.  I yelled out at John ... "Ref:  you have finally made a good decision".  John looked over at me, smiled and picked up his flag.  The replay was for naught and ... as the teams began to run off ... he jogged over to where I sat and drew his flag.  "on the stands".  Of course the Wabash  side went nuts.  He smiled again and motioned to me, and I came over.  He quietly said to me "the penalty for your infraction is to get Cokes for the refs."  Which I dutifully went off to accomplish.  John and I knew what had happened.  Only the Wabash side was confused ... we never told them.  The next Monday, I was in his court room ... "best decision I ever made?" he said.  My reply was: "well ... one of them."

The story is meant to  be ... for a when the season is over adjustment ... to entertain and put our referees' efforts into context ... they do the best they can (at least I believe they do), they do hear the crowd, and they have both a sense of humor and a sense of irritation.  So lets "work" the good humor side.

By the way ... Steketee used to repeat that story with a Hope audience when I was present.  We always bet a silver dollar on the game ... until he died.  I ran across the silver dollars a few years ago, and they are now in the hands of grandkids.