FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[HSCTiger fan]

I think it helps the conference to have better teams. It makes for a more exciting season for all teams the more the conference is competitive top to bottom. I think it helps the champion come post-season to be a long-term dominant team. I do think there is a name recognition component that surfaces to some small degree in seeding. So the more you make the post-season, the more likely you are to get that slightly higher seed that gives you that slightly easier first round game, that gives you those post-season first round wins, that gives you a slightly better reputation the next year, and therefore gives you a slightly better seed again.

Does it matter for the top teams in the country? No. The MIAC champ can rotate but whoever it is in that year is going to be pretty darned good. The CCIW champ and E8 champ also to some degree. But for the mid-tier conferences, having a rotating champ makes it just slightly harder to get those winnable first round games, as opposed to say Franklin who seems to get home games about 1/2 the time they make the playoffs.

So I guess it all depends on what your definition is for better. Given the conference season is 11 weeks (yeah, I know OOC but you see what I'm saying), I'd rather those games be competitive and interesting. The post season is only half as long and really only 4-6 teams have legitimate aspirations to make the end in any year, I'd rather be entertained all fall than for one or two games before stumbling on a big boy in the playoffs.

I agree that a balanced conference makes for more entertaining games and season. The ODAC is very competitive. WL had the first undefeated conference season since 2010. They had a 3 point win over Guilford, a 90+ yard drive late in the game at RMC and a goal line stand against HSC. Very exciting. There were no weeks off. They had to try and bring their best each week. As does each ODAC team.  But that does not help develop teams like Wabash.  Their back-ups play more. They develop more depth. They can use that to recruit better players. It makes sense that they can have more success in the tournament.  They are fresher, with quality back-ups partly as a result of playing weaker teams.

The only tournament success from the ODAC in the last 16 years was when Bridgewater was dominate. No ODAC team gave them a game until the playoffs.  As the ODAC became more and more balanced (and entertaining) the tournament success went a way.  Since 2006 1 tournament win - from 1999 to 2005 7 tournament wins and 1 Stagg Bowl.

I agree JK it depends on your definition of "better".

[smedindy]

It's always best to have teams that are competitive in the conference. When you can get multiple teams in the tournament on a consistent basis, it helps the league profile. The CCIW, MIAC, WIAC and OAC are leagues to aspire to.

Now Wabash and Witt have been in the playoffs together a few times - but a DPU, OWU, Denison or another team that could qualify for the post season would help the entire league...

[wally_wabash]

I agree, I hate to see them take a step back, even though they beat OWU the last two years. Helps the conference out to have strong teams. I am curious to see who they hire.

Does it really help the conference?  There sure seem to me to be quite a few really good teams in lousy conferences. Wabash, Linfield, Mt. Union all play in weak conferences. Granted Wabash has Witt and Mt. Union has John Carroll but the rest of the games on their schedules pretty much stink. When one team or two are dominant depth is developed, playing time is easier to promise to recruits and you have to "get up" for one or two games per year. It's simply a case of the rich get richer.

Huh? Does it help the conference to have good teams? Yes. Unequivocally.

In a conference like the NCAC I don't see it. Wabash beats teams so badly their underclassmen play more, thus developing depth and retention. Are you seriously going to tell me that you and your players are as excited about playing 1 for their last 30 Alleghany or 8 for their last 30 Kenyon as they are Depauw or Wittenburg.  Injuries are not that big a deal if your next opponent is Alleghany, or Wooster, or Kenyon, or Oberlin.  Heck you guys could beat these teams with your second team.  If there were consistanly 4 really good teams in the NCAC where champion has 2 losses then the NCAC champion gets a worse seed in the tournament.  Instead the champion is generally 10-0 having played 7 to 8 bad teams and they get to play a favorable first round match-up. 

I think you guys have got it pretty good.

You're really oversimplifying everything.  A couple of points:
- Injuries ALWAYS matter.  There's never a good time for a player to get hurt. 
- A team can play a bunch of underclassmen some in non-leverage situations against bad teams- but those players only wind up being good players if they had some talent to begin with.  Having a team with quality depth starts with recruiting- have to get the players on your roster before you can develop anything.  And this hasn't always been the case at Wabash.  It's taken a long time to develop the kind of quality of depth that Wabash has now.  But it's not as simple as saying that Wabash can play the next 22 guys for a quarter here and there and those guys will just magically turn into studs.  Those guys need to be studs to begin with. 
- The idea that the conference exists where there are 4 really good teams and the conference champion by necessity winds up with two losses and bad playoff positioning, I hate to tell you, is a myth.   I know you're playing the ODAC as an example here, but in so many years where the ODAC champion has multiple losses and then gets smashed by Wesley or whatever in the first round, the truth of the matter is that if the ODAC champion was really that good, they wouldn't have lost twice.  There's not a better top 4/5 collection of teams in one conference than the MIAC.  Their champion sweeps the league more often than not.  The really good teams- I'm talking about the teams that can realistically talk about getting to the final 8 or deeper- those teams sweep their league.  If you're a multiple loss league champion, chances are we have a good idea what your ceiling is before the tournament starts. 

But mostly, I find this discussion interesting because for as long as I've been active on this board, the knock on the NCAC is that they can't get any farther than they do because there isn't substantial competition in the league to get them ready for the tournament.  Here, you're saying the NCAC has a decided advantage because there isn't substantial competition inside the league.  Damned if we do, damned if don't, right?  The truth is....drumroll...it doesn't really matter either way.  Really good programs build themselves, what conference they play in couldn't possibly matter less. 

[wabco]

I do love the south VA weather in the fall and the hospitality though.  Wish we could finagle another home and home with HSC so we could all again boondoggle down there.  I wish HSC well and good football fortunes.  Having to field a team such as Wabash has or HSC has ... and all the while emphasizing quality in education ... poses extraordinary challenges for the College, for the Coaches, and for the players ... especially where others play utilizing lower hurdles.   (A couple of names in our conference and indeed in the D3 tournament come to mind.)  Oh, well.

I can recall the chants of the Northwestern U undergrads of several years ago when a lesser academic institution in their conference would play and out play them:  "That's All Right !  That's OK !  Your Gonna Work For Us Someday !"

WAF

[jknezek]

I do love the south VA weather in the fall and the hospitality though.  Wish we could finagle another home and home with HSC so we could all again boondoggle down there.  I wish HSC well and good football fortunes.  Having to field a team such as Wabash has or HSC has ... and all the while emphasizing quality in education ... poses extraordinary challenges for the College, for the Coaches, and for the players ... especially where others play utilizing lower hurdles.   (A couple of names in our conference and indeed in the D3 tournament come to mind.)  Oh, well.

I can recall the chants of the Northwestern U undergrads of several years ago when a lesser academic institution in their conference would play and out play them:  "That's All Right !  That's OK !  Your Gonna Work For Us Someday !"

WAF

H-SC is hard pressed to use that argument and chant in a conference where it legitimately belongs to W&L...   

I also somewhat wonder how Kenyon and Oberlin feel lining up across from Wabash...

[cave2bens]

H-SC is hard pressed to use that argument and chant in a conference where it legitimately belongs to W&L...   

I also somewhat wonder how Kenyon and Oberlin feel lining up across from Wabash...

Kenyon - "Yeah but just wait until we get y'all in the swimming pool..."

Oberlin - "Oh drat, I've mud on my birkie straps... and the cafeteria cut the sushi tuna on the incorrect bias again."   

[Schwami]

I do love the south VA weather in the fall and the hospitality though.  Wish we could finagle another home and home with HSC so we could all again boondoggle down there.  I wish HSC well and good football fortunes.  Having to field a team such as Wabash has or HSC has ... and all the while emphasizing quality in education ... poses extraordinary challenges for the College, for the Coaches, and for the players ... especially where others play utilizing lower hurdles.   (A couple of names in our conference and indeed in the D3 tournament come to mind.)  Oh, well.

I can recall the chants of the Northwestern U undergrads of several years ago when a lesser academic institution in their conference would play and out play them:  "That's All Right !  That's OK !  Your Gonna Work For Us Someday !"

WAF

H-SC is hard pressed to use that argument and chant in a conference where it legitimately belongs to W&L...   

I also somewhat wonder how Kenyon and Oberlin feel lining up across from Wabash...

Touche'.   

The "academic card" is a two-way street and really quite beside the point.  You can't control what other programs do, and there is no point in resenting their perceived "advantages".

[HSCTiger fan]

I do love the south VA weather in the fall and the hospitality though.  Wish we could finagle another home and home with HSC so we could all again boondoggle down there.  I wish HSC well and good football fortunes.  Having to field a team such as Wabash has or HSC has ... and all the while emphasizing quality in education ... poses extraordinary challenges for the College, for the Coaches, and for the players ... especially where others play utilizing lower hurdles.   (A couple of names in our conference and indeed in the D3 tournament come to mind.)  Oh, well.

I can recall the chants of the Northwestern U undergrads of several years ago when a lesser academic institution in their conference would play and out play them:  "That's All Right !  That's OK !  Your Gonna Work For Us Someday !"

WAF

H-SC is hard pressed to use that argument and chant in a conference where it legitimately belongs to W&L...   

I also somewhat wonder how Kenyon and Oberlin feel lining up across from Wabash...

While it's true WL is typically rated the 1st or 2nd school in VA.  I doubt either WL or HSC is chanting that to any ODAC school.  I hope that sooner than later HSC can get back on Wabash's schedule. 

Merry Chritmas NCAC!

[tigerFanAlso2]

No self respecting HSC grad would never, under any circumstance, work for or under a W&L grad !!!!

[jknezek]

No self respecting HSC grad would never, under any circumstance, work for or under a W&L grad !!!!

That's ok. W&L grads know better than to hire them! We look for competent employees.... 

Any rejoinders let's slap them in the ODAC page. I doubt the NCAC folks care about our banter...

[wabashcpa]

No self respecting HSC grad would never, under any circumstance, work for or under a W&L grad !!!!

That's ok. W&L grads know better than to hire them! We look for competent employees.... 

Any rejoinders let's slap them in the ODAC page. I doubt the NCAC folks care about our banter...

Actually it's good to see for those of us that don't wander far from home.  Sounds like the Wabash DePauw dynamic.

[jknezek]

No self respecting HSC grad would never, under any circumstance, work for or under a W&L grad !!!!

That's ok. W&L grads know better than to hire them! We look for competent employees.... 

Any rejoinders let's slap them in the ODAC page. I doubt the NCAC folks care about our banter...

Actually it's good to see for those of us that don't wander far from home.  Sounds like the Wabash DePauw dynamic.

Not even close. W&L and H-SC really don't share the history. Lots of games, but not many meaningful until the last 10 years. H-SC's rival is, and will always be, R-MC. Especially as R-MC keeps winning The Game despite H-SC's better teams. A slightly better comparison is Wabash and Witt. Not much history, but recently it's defined the NCAC. Plus you have an educated school taking on a bunch of chuckleheads. 

W&L also really doesn't have the fan support a rivalry demands. The alumni simply don't stay in the area, don't return for the games, and have limited interest in athletics when they are undergrads. It's a bit sad to be honest.

[wabashcpa]

Merry Christmas (a day early)!  HO HO HO 

[Joe Wally]

No self respecting HSC grad would never, under any circumstance, work for or under a W&L grad !!!!

Ha!  That's the way we feel about the Dannies in Indianapolis.

[Joe Wally]

Merry Christmas, Everyone!

Even the Dannies!