FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[HCAlum86]

Does Hiram find that people who don't stay on the football team also leave the institution? I have been under the impression that students stay in the school in reasonable numbers even after they stop playing football.

Great question - and the answer is that local (1-3 hours) recruits that leave the team remain at the institution. The further one gets away from Hiram, the less likely they're to return as a student alone.

I had a couple friends from Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Rhode Island that stayed after they quit their respective teams - but they're outliers.

[CollegeGolf18]

HCALUM86

Good to see that Hiram is thinking hard about its football program.  For years, I've noticed that the roster has been studded with student-athletes from far away (Florida in particular)  I've noticed year after year that many of the players from those states did not return the following year. I recognize the need to grow the student body, or at least not shrink it, in the face of declining high school graduation rate in Ohio, Pennsylvania and surrounding states..  But the numbers of far-away players still always seemed high to me.  By the way, Wittenberg has 19 players from Florida on its roster this year, and they've had similar numbers the last 4 or 5 years.  Allegheny has also gone farther afield in recent years, not being interested or able (don't know which) in containing its recruiting base primarily to the WPIAL and other western Pennsylvania leagues. 
     What I don't know, of course, is what kinds of discussions there are between the football coaches (and ADs) and the folks in Admissions.  On the one hand, there is an understandable desire to spread the recruiting base of all students; one the other hand, there's the expense, financial and in terms of attrition, that can follow.  Out of necessity many schools have broadened there recruiting territories.  The added benefit of geographic diversity, and ethnic diversity in some cases, is highly desirable.  At places like Kenyon and Oberlin the student populations have always been geographically diverse because of their rightful claim to academic excellence.  They attract students nationwide without searching them out.  Places like Witt and Hiram have had to use another strategy, going hard after student-athletes and spreading their recruiting focus in the process.  The good news in a way is that those Florida and Texas athletes are often really good; the downside is that they are sometimes academically marginal.  This is to paint with a broad brush, but it seems to me this is the pattern.  I'm not insinuating that Hiram, Witt (and other NCAC schools) are academically weak, but they do not have the national reputation of Oberlin and Kenyon.
     To take the other side, Wabash's recruiting base has always been close to home, with the vast majority of students and student-athletes from Indiana.  They have a close relationship with high schools and an alumni base firmly committed to help  with recruiting  students with a strong academic record, many of whom are also pretty good athletes.  Sprinkled through the roster historically have been a few students from contiguous states and a few more from farther away.  Since joining the NCAC 20 years ago, a healthy number of Wabash's football players have come from Arizona and Texas.  This results from Wabash very selectively going after good student-athletes from these states. In the last two years, I've  noticed almost no recruits from these two states; I don't know why--whether the College and the football staff has decided to do things differently or whether they are not finding the right students.   This year there is not a single freshman student from Arizona or Texas on the roster. There is one student from Florida, and he is being productive as a WR.  I'll not go into detail other factors that help schools decide how far and wide to throw their net, including the expense of doing so year after year.  To me, it will be interesting to see whether the small number of far-away students who have sprinkled the Wabash roster and who have definitely enhanced Wabash competitiveness over the last two decades  has become a phenomenon of the past.
     Well, I've gotten a bit off track on the Hiram situation.  I hope this is an opportunity to think hard about the place of football on campus, most importantly beyond purely wins and losses, but an important tool in helping to solidify the student population.  A hundred or more students who play football, and who stick around to increase retention, can only benefit Hiram in terms of more wins and a better financial bottom line.

As for Wabash I think this can be boiled down to just simply not having that connection any longer. If I recall correctly, I believe Hammer was in charge of AZ recruiting and when he left, no one really picked up the slack. I could be wrong on that front though.

[hcdawg804]

Hey all. First time poster to this thread, long time reader and D3 podcast listener. Just to give you a background on me.. I've been reading from the likes of Wally, sigma one, HCAlum86 and the rest of the gang since my playing days for Hiram 2009-2014. I was a dual sport athlete playing football and baseball. I lived on campus during multiple summers, and lived off campus a few yrs after totaling 8yrs in Hiram. I know the College very well and felt this was a great time to finally come out of the shadows. 

I played one yr under Stanford and felt the man was a tremendous offensive minded coach and overall great guy. But production matters and it was def time for a change. I remember hearing on one of the recent D3 podcasts a bad stat... Hiram's last 5 wins, dating back to 2016, have all been against teams that were winless at the time (Kenyon 3x, Earlham, and OWU). That's just not good. So a change is in order.

I agree with HCAlum86 (".. very well...") that someone who knows NEO NEEDS to be the next HC at Hiram. Perhaps even a former player at Hiram, as they would know the program very well. We just need someone who really cares about the kids, the college, and the community. Someone that is ready to step into a very tough HC role and get to work.

I am tired of seeing Hiram recruit so many kids for the next freshman class. I played on teams of over 100 kids, and while I know that having more athletes helps the school to have more students and plenty of other D3 teams are successful with those kind of roster numbers, it just isn't going to cut it here at Hiram, at least for now. There were kids on the team that I barely ever spoke to because there was so many! I think my freshman class started at about 55 and dwindled down to just 6 or 7 my 4th yr. Having so many kids on the team is hard to create a strong "team" culture, especially at a school that has trouble winning games (4-46 record for my 5yrs). A couple yrs we had so many kids on the squad that about 10 of them had to be moved to a different locker room because there wasn't enough room in the football locker room. How do you think those kids felt? I think bringing in no more than 25 freshman would be ideal. It would allow for better team camaraderie and the kids would feel more accepted/important and want to stay.

As for recruiting far out of state, I think that needs to cut down significantly. There are plenty of great football players in NEO and the rest of the state and even PA, IN. Spending so much time, and money, on travelling to FL, CA, TX, NV etc. is, in my opinion, a waste. Maybe a few kids from far out of state because you will find good kids but you risk them not returning after their first yr. When you bring in so many kids from that far away it just does not work. I have seen it countless times. A kid from Fl is promised playing time, comes up to Hiram, doesn't play a snap all season, and then once winter break comes and he's sitting on the beach with his smoking hot girlfriend he realizes that he loves FL and doesn't even come back for the spring semester, especially when he doesn't get playing time (FL kids aren't used to the snow and often hate it). I had a buddy come in my sophomore yr and told he would start at TE. That yr we used a TE in our offensive package maybe like 5-10% of the season and he was not involved in that whatsoever. We can't keep lying to kids and leading them on. It is a waste of their time and the football programs time. Sorry to be so negative in that respect, but trust me I've seen it over and over again.

Side note: I will say that I befriended many FL kids on the team when I was there, and visit them every yr. So I am thankful for the friendships created via recruits from out of state.

We just need a guy that cares and wants to win. Wants to create a winning culture at Hiram and let that spread to the rest of the teams on campus that are struggling. A guy that wants to put Hiram on the D3 football map. Someone that played D3 football, was a winner, and knows NEO. Hiram can't stay below .500 forever, can they? I am excited about the possibility of a winning Hiram football team.

I also just want to say I am very grateful to now be a part of this thread. Thanks guys.

[sigma one]

Welcome hcdawg804.  Your thoughts on a program you know so well and care about really help the discussion.

Since earlier today I've thought more about recruiting in the NCAC.  I went back to the current rosters; that is, to the rosters as they exist this morning, to see if what I think I know about the rosters of the various schools is actually so.  Here is what I found.  Most of it confirms what I recall from looking at the rosters over the last few years.  Any close miscounts are . . miscounts. . .but I'm close.

          School                              Roster Size           IN-State Players           %age of Roster           Most Players From Other States
   
          Allegheny                             81                            34                               42%                     FL  11     NY  10     OH  7

          Denison                              104                           36                                35%                    IL  21      NY   7      FL  6      PA  5

          DePauw                              116                           77                                66%                    IL  24      OH  7      MO  3

          Hiram                                  83                           31                                 37%                   TX  13       FL  10     CA  7      GA, TN, VA  4    (PA  1)

          Kenyon                                71                           14                                 20%                   MA  11      CA   7      PA  7      NJ  6     FL  3

          Oberlin                                44                           12                                  27%                   NJ    5       FL  3       GA  3     MI  3     PA  3     TX  3

          OWU                                   89                           47                                  53%                    FL   8       CA  7       GA  7     MI  6

          Wabash                             101                           92                                  91%                    AZ  4        IL  3        FL  1     LA   1    Oh 1
 
          Wittenberg                         116                          76                                  66%                    FL  21       IN  7        KY 3

          Wooster                              93                           27                                  29%                    PA  13       NY 6        GA 6     TX  5     CA 3       IN 3     MI 3

Make of this what you will.  Some of the numbers surprised me.  Wabash is the outlier in terms of in-state players.  I guess you can win in the league with local players.  Wooster's numbers are interesting.  They are more diverse than I would have thought.  Wittenberg with 21 from Florida.   

   


       

[smedindy]

There are so many small Ohio schools that play football (D2, D3, NAIA) compared to Indiana. (30 vs. 14), and overall (39 vs. 19) that it's inevitable Ohio schools have to venture outside the area.  There are 57 football playing schools in PA as well - including 27 D3 schools. (All of the overall numbers include Jucos, though that's very small).

Illinois has just 33 football playing schools.

I know IL used to be a hotspot for Wabash but that went away. Now it seems the TX and AZ pipelines have more competition as well. But DPU and Denison are reaping benefits there.

In my travels when I mention the NCAC and the schools, people know Kenyon, Denison, Oberlin, and Wooster more often than not. So they have name recognition out in the wild more so than others.

Hiram is a unique school with there 12-3 plan. That's going to attract a diverse student body overall.

[sigma one]

I am certain that as schools expand their recruiting territories in search of students (and student-athletes) that competition increases in the new locations.  But Wabash appears to have stopped sending coaches to Texas and Arizona for the length of time they previously did, if they are sending them at all.  In the early 2000s Wabash hired assistant coaches who had previous experience in Arizona and  Texas.  Ward and Neathery were successful in those locations and a pipeline developed that continued after they left Wabash.  Hammer picked up Arizona.   For whatever reasons, it appears that the current coaching staff is either not interested in continuing the effort or Admissions has pulled them back.  I could list a large number of Wabash all-NCAC players from those states over the past 20 years.  Just listing the starters from those states would yield an impressive list.  Well, it is what it is, but it's also something to watch for next year and beyond.   By the way, I am not putting down the Indiana recruits, but the out-of-state guys were a huge bonus. 
     It's true that there is a huge difference in the number of football-playing colleges in Indiana, Ohio, and Pennsylvania.  But there's also a huge difference in the number of football-playing high schools in these states, and a huge population difference.  Ohio and Pennsylvania both have about double the number of football-playing high schools as compared to Indiana. Pennsylvania's population is about 12.8 million; Ohio's about 11.6 million; Indiana's about 6.6 million.  Competition for students is fierce, and DIII recruiting is a challenge for probably 90% of DIII schools.    The challenges will continue and in all probability increase.

[aueagle]

Number of schools that have football in Ohio
D1 - 10
D2 -  9
D3 - 21
NAIA - 1
Very competitive in the Buckeye state,
& very intense in northeast Ohio. I hope
Hiram can turn the corner, but it will take an
Enormous amount of total commitment

[Bishopleftiesdad]

Looks like the Bishops are starting Kenny Streb  at QB. The Sophpmore is listed as WR on the roster.

[BayernFan]

I did not know that Oberlin is the last Ohio team to have beaten Ohio State.  Also, I'm curious as to whether there is any controversy at Oberlin over playing a school that bars women from enrolling.

[aueagle]

Bishops carry 4 QB's on the squad...can't figure the Streb move..
OSU is just whipping the Puppies...Go Bishops

[aueagle]

OWU..watching both the Bucks & Bishops

[aueagle]

 Witt losing gives the LG's the inside edge to win the conference.
OSU has a slim chance because they still have Witt & Big Red.

[VoodooDoc]

Coach Hammer started recruiting in Arizona during his time in California before returning to Wabash.  Phoenix is one of the largest metro areas in the country and high school football is very strong.  So there is large supply of quality players, but other than Arizona and Arizona State and Northern Arizona, there are no smaller colleges playing football.  So there is plenty of supply, but little local demand.  Texas and Florida have strong high school football programs, but again the supply of quality players outstrips the demand.

NE Ohio and Western PA also have quality high school programs, but also there is a high level of demand from local college programs - small, medium and large.  For college programs with higher admission standards, expanding the talent pool with players from other geographic area with an excess supply of good high school players makes sense.

[wally_wabash]

I did not know that Oberlin is the last Ohio team to have beaten Ohio State.  Also, I'm curious as to whether there is any controversy at Oberlin over playing a school that bars women from enrolling.

What's the point of this?  Why kick up crap where there isn't any? 

[Li'l Giant]

That DePauw/Allegheny score is a full 4 quarter score? Wow.