FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[smedindy]

All offenses can look equally good or heinous, depending on who is running them.

[DarkSide-D]

Nike,

Last year, Carthage barly broke 60 yards total.  Dante Washington had 70 yrds alone.  That means that collectively, the rest of Carthage's offense produced -10 yards.  I agree completely.  Defenses win Championships, but the Offense MUST help out the Defense.  Last year, Wabash had the No. 1 defense in the conference, but look where they finished.

[oldguy]

Vince,

Yes the weather was bad, but the game was on astroturf, and that type of weather should favor the wing-t style of offense.  I think the proof there is what happened to the Allegheny win-loss record after Hrovat arrived and installed that offense after all the success O'Keefe had running a regular one.  Given, O'Keefe was a good coach, and its hard to compare offenses when there are different coaches.  But I believe there is something to that.  

usee,

I didn't forget about Augie's success in the 80's.  But you bringing up season's 20 years ago pretty much proves my point that the wing-t is "outdated."  I'd be willing to bet that if you look at all the conference champs around the country every year, very few of them are wing-T teams.  In fact, when was the last time a wing-t team made it to the final four?

Again, I said you can have success and even win a conference title here and there, but it cannot take you to the NEXT level.  I know Augie won a lot in the 80's.  But in all fairness, several D-1 programs still ran that style of offense then as well.  Its outdated.  I will predict that neither Augie, nor any other wing-t team will win a national championship in D-3 for a long, long time.

[Augie6]

Oldguy,

Your comments about the wing-T are way off base.  As usee and dansand pointed out, we won 4 straight national championships at Augie during the 80's running an offense that you described as "a high school offense for small schools that don't have the size and athletic ability to run a normal offense."  Ask the teams in the CCIW and any others who have played Augie in the past 25+ years if they would describe it this way.  I can assure you, they won't.  Although the offense does have a component of misdirection and ball fakes, most of the teams in the CCIW have a pretty good idea of what's coming at them on a play by play basis.  The challenge is, can they stop it.  I played on all 4 national championship teams and our philosophy on offense was simple, "Here is what we are going to do, try and stop us."  That philosophy hasn't changed since then.   Your comment is completely contrary to what it takes to be successful running this offense, athletes with speed and power.  We have had many All-Americans on the O Line and in the backfield which supports this claim.  Maybe the teams you have seen are not effective running the wing-t because they don't have this type of personnel, but don't make generalizations that it cannot be successful at the D III level because it has and continues to be.

[DarkSide-D]

I think what Oldguys claim is, is that it no longer is the force it once was.

I would like to see an answer to his question before I jump ship and claim that the Wing-T is a good offense.  When was the last time a Wing-T team made it to the final four, or won the championship.  Its all fine to claim that the Wing-T won championships back in the 80's, but in todays world that doesn't mean it will win it again.  That is, unless it has, or does. 

Just because something worked once upon a time, doesn't mean it will continue to work.  Let's look at the single Wing.  It used to work, but now no one runs it.  That is because it became outdated, and teams began to stop it.

[KC]

OWU's old fashioned Wing T is so outdated that in 2001 they were fourth in the nation in total offense.  It works so poorly against the cream of the crop teams in the NCAC that they beat Witt last year and lost to Wabash by 3.  It is a good offense.  Yes, if you read your keys you stop it.  Same for just about every other offense.  It also keeps the defense off the field and rested, which is very beneficial.  I would rank OWU as the third best program in the conference behind Witt and Bash, and a big reason for that is Hollway and his staff.  Sure they are in a recruting hotbed, but basically the entire conference is too.

[Mugsy]

Oldguy,

Ask the teams in the CCIW and any others who have played Augie in the past 25+ years if they would describe it this way.  I can assure you, they won't.  Although the offense does have a component of misdirection and ball fakes, most of the teams in the CCIW have a pretty good idea of what's coming at them on a play by play basis.  The challenge is, can they stop it.  I played on all 4 national championship teams and our philosophy on offense was simple, "Here is what we are going to do, try and stop us."  That philosophy hasn't changed since then.  

Having both played and coached against Augie, I can attest to the fact that we studied enough film to see the minor changes in stance, formation, etc... to know exactly what play Augie was going to run next.  We'd even be screaming it out on defense - "double-dive", etc... Augie didn't care!  They still stuff it down your throat.  Yes, we had some success shutting them down for most of the game.  But eventually they'd wear you down, adjust they're blocking schemes ever so slightly, and bust off a few long TD'd runs.

Personally I don't think you can claim that the scheme on one side of the ball is the sole reason for success or failure.  Last time I checked offense, defense and special teams all play a part.  Augie's offense for 25+ years has lead to significant ball control (time of possession).  What has failed Augie (if you can call it a failure as they continue to be one of the top teams in the CCIW) is their defense.  During their championships seasons, in addition to their wing-t stuff it down your throat offense, they had an absolute nasty, attack defense.  Some of those national championship teams held teams to under 8 pts a game.  Combine that with a ball control offense and quality special teams and you have a top-flight team.  Their defense over the past 10 years, while good, isn't nearly as potent as in the 80's and early 90's.  As a result against other tough offensive teams, Augie digs a hole that is difficult to recover from with the wing-t offense (the primary weakness of that scheme).  In the past 5 years, Wheaton has scored over 35+ pts in 4 of those games.  It is Augie defense that has failed them recently, not the wing-t.

[DarkSide-D]

Ok KC,

I will give ya all those fancy schmancy facts.  But I don't care if you have the best Offensive numbers in the universe.  It's all for not if you don't WIN.  That is our point.  When was the last time OWU won the conference?  When was the last time they went deep into the playoffs, or won the National title?  Funny you say they are the thrid best team in the conference, yet they are tied for fourth right now.

[seinfeld]

OWU record the last three seasons before this year:

15-15

[DarkSide-D]

Mugsy,

You just said that you can't blame one side of the ball or the other for the failure of the program.  Yet you turn right around and blame the Auggie Defense for their failure to make a run to Salem.

I think you can blame one side or the other.  Just like you can blame both sides, or even the coaching.

Perhaps the reason Auggies were able to run the ball up the gut, or turn the corner back in the 80s is because they were playing against inferrior defensive players.  From my experiance (Granted it isnt all that extensive) if you have a good, disciplined D, they players will string out the play, and have great pursuit.  That means if a player runs east and west...he is going to run into the sidelines.  If he cuts back, he does so into some big nasty linebacker who isnt too happy he just had to run 30 yards from one side of the field to the other.

[Mugsy]

DarkSide,

true...

but I wasn't blaming the defense for FAILURE of the PROGRAM.  It's still consistently a top 30 team in the country.  That makes it a failure?

I meant to imply you need all facets of the game.  If you were to look at the national championship teams over the years, I believe you will see they dominate on all facets - offense, defense and special teams.  Case in point, the Mount Union championship teams scored 50pts a game, their defense held opponents to under 10pts a game and I know from experience their special teams won games all by itself.  Most championship teams excel at all 3 phases.

You can be a good (even very good) team if you excel at one phase of the game, but to go to the next level...  My point about Augie is that they are still one of the top teams in the CCIW, but they haven't had the defense to go beyond conference championships.  The same can be said for virtually all CCIW champions from the last 10 years.  They have all been lacking in one facet of the game - typically on defense.  For the CCIW, it doesn't matter what offensive scheme you run (wing-t, 4 wide, pro I, west coast huck and chuck), we haven't had the dominate defense for some time.  That is why we haven't gotten past the Mount Union's of D3 football..

[BashBacker#16]

Mugsy - This wing T talk gets old.  I am more interested in the Augie/North Central matchup this weekend.  Any predictions from a Wheaton guy?

[WallyFS4]

First of all I think the wing-T sucks.  Our local high school as been running it for 5 years.  Took a very good program to one of the worst programs in the state.  Went O'fer the season this year.  Needless to say the coach was encourage to resigned, which he did.  With that being said I don't think it is the wing-T.  I think it is the coaching staff first, then it you have to have the right personel.  I have seen a lot of successful programs that run the wing-T.  If OWU wants to make a run.  It's not the system, it's the coaching.

Can we please move on to another subject.  The wing-T conversation is growing old.   As always.

WABASH ALWAYS FIGHTS![/size][/font]

[kcreds]

Thank you for all the Wing-T support, I thought I was alone on an island but you all have renewed my faith.

Bringing up past records and stats are fun but it means nothing to the present and future players of OWU and their goals. If you all want to hang your hats on that, so be it.

OWU will be able to prove they are third best by winning out and all the games play out. Don't get me wrong, there is very little solace in finishing third but I try to focus on the positives. Go Bishops!

[DarkSide-D]

Things are a bit boring, now that the conference champion has basically been solidified.  So, with that, do you guys think that the championship race will be better next year.  Last year, Championship talk raged til the last week.  Will competition be better next year?  I was glad to see Witt climbed outta their fog and began to win (granted they played some tough compitition in the pre conference games).