FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[wooscot]

wabashcpa,

Interesting thoughts on the conference realignment, but as a Wooster alum, I would have to protest.  Wooster belongs in a conference with the likes of kenyon, denison, oberlin, gheny, and earlham.  In fact, I see nothing wrong with the current NCAC, except that the conference should have done more some years ago to keep CWRU.  The addition of Wabash has been great not only in football, but in other sports as well.  by placing woo, owu, witt and bash in a conference with the likes of defiance and co., you are really doing nothing except creating longer travel for Wooster, adding schools that do not in any way match the academic standards of the rest of the NCAC, and in my opinion, creating an OAC-lite minus the football competitiveness.  I think that would be a mistake and I do not believe any of the current NCAC members would want to leave the NCAC for a conference like this.  Furthermore, from Wooster's perspective, its closest oppononet aside from OWU would be either Defiance or Witt, both of which are nearly 2.5-3 hours away.  Too much travel for  NE Ohio team.  

If we want to get creative why not include Mt. Union and Ohio Northern and possibly Capital, then exclude Defiance, Mt. St. Joes, and either DePauw or Franklin?

[wally_wabash]

I see your point, cpa, but I rather like the company we keep in the NCAC.  I don't like that a good number of our NCAC teams seem to take such little interest in being competitive in football.  Denison and Kenyon have recently upgraded their football facility, so it would seem that they are making an investment in the program, but we're simply not seeing any dividends.  Earlham has recently upgraded their facility...I hope we'll see the Quakers program improve. 

We also have to keep in mind that that our affiliation with the NCAC is more than just football.  Most of the NCAC schools are in the GLCA, which we like.  All have PBK chapters, which we also like.  Nearly all are top tier liberal arts schools..also cool.  And athletically speaking, some of the teams that aren't traditionally good in football are very good in other sports (Denison wins the All-Sports almost annually). 

If I could borrow your magic wand, I'd not replace some of our NCAC schools with other schools who happen to be good at football right now (past performance is not an indicator of future success!), I'd help the schools that we do have raise their programs to respectable levels. 

The only exception is that I could be persuaded to trade pretty much any member of the conference for the inclusion of DePauw.  The rivalry (in all sports, not just football) is still there and is still very bitter, but it is undoubtedly a little different now that we're not competing with one another for conference championshps. 

[wabco]

CPA ... no to Franklin and Defiance ... no academics and little class (re Franklin).  Hanover ... awful far for mosat of NCAC.  Rather see add DePauw for all the reasons previously stated plus balance with a good school nearer Gheny ... then split the conference into 2 divisions with playoffs at the end.

[joepieters]

All of the Wallies would like to see the Dannies in the conference, but as was stated by others, football notwithstanding, we are in the company of some extraordinary academic institutions in the NCAC, that fact alone  is reason enough to look beyond  the gridiron deficiencies of a few.

[Li'l Giant]

I see your point, cpa, but I rather like the company we keep in the NCAC.

Agree.

The only exception is that I could be persuaded to trade pretty much any member of the conference for the inclusion of DePauw.  The rivalry (in all sports, not just football) is still there and is still very bitter, but it is undoubtedly a little different now that we're not competing with one another for conference championshps.

How awesome would a Monon Bell Game be with a playoff bid on the line as well? I would love to see it, but I doubt it ever happens. Both Wabash and Depauw are perfectly happy where they are.

[wabashcpa]

You can't just make a conference for football, though.

Pioneer League?  Gateway Conference?  Not what I'm after (maybe it was, but here's another idea)

How about this - model something after the English Premier League - top teams from NCAC, HCAC, UAA, OAC, etc. play each other, bottom teams play each other, champions from the bottom move up the following year, basement dwellers from the top move down.  Ensures quality opponents each week for those that care about such things.  It would take a little thought, but it could be done.  That way you avoid the Wittenberg-Hiram matchups that have been so captivating.  You can keep the conferences as currently formed (so we don't have to worry about those dreaded academic heathens), but you round-robin the top five conference teams (four games) and have six at-large games - maybe you can throw in a Mount Union and Capital in this mix, along with a Case, DePauw, Wheaton, Franklin, etc.  Automatic bid for conference champs, at-large bids for those who fare well in conference and at-large games.  Conference champ much better prepared for a championship run than it is now.

Just trying to think outside the box a little, fellas.  The box we're in isn't working, if the Stagg Bowl is your goal.

[smedindy]

Frankly, is the Stagg Bowl a realistic goal, right now? I think we'd need to see slips by Mt. Union, the WIAC, and Mary-Hardin Baylor.

The idea of a conference, especially in D-3, is that schools associate with their peers for competition.

[wally_wabash]

Frankly, is the Stagg Bowl a realistic goal, right now? I think we'd need to see slips by Mt. Union, the WIAC, and Mary-Hardin Baylor.

The idea of a conference, especially in D-3, is that schools associate with their peers for competition.

If winning the whole thing isn't the goal, then what's the point? 

You play to win the game!  Hello! 

[bashbrother]

Do you think that Whitewater thought the Stagg was a realistic goal before 2005?

Past UW-W records
1999 (3-7, 3-4 WIAC)
2000 (5-5, 3-4 WIAC)
2001 (5-5, 2-5 WIAC)
2002 (5-5, 4-3 WIAC)
2003 (7-3, 5-2 WIAC)
2004 (7-3, 4-3 WIAC)
2005 (14-1, 7-0 WIAC)
2006 (14-1, 7-0 WIAC)
2007 (11-1, 7-0 WIAC)

We have a good thing going with CC.  He has gotten us closer, Saturday didn't show that very well, but we are closer.

To get to the next level, I think Wabash will need:

1.  A Running Game.  A prolific passing game will get you to the playoffs, (W & J, NCC, Wabash etc.) but a running game is needed to make it through them.  The level of defense in the top tier is too good to be one dimensional.  The Top Tier teams are all balanced offensively, we must become balanced as well.

2.  D-Line Size - The offensive lines in the top tier are big, strong and talented and what I saw on Saturday was we got pushed around (Granted, Gangloff was playing on one leg and Lange was dinged and out after the 1st qtr.)

3.  Pass Defense The ability to play multiple coverages in the defensive backfield with confidence.  This requires speed and talent.

4.  O-Line  Keep the bar raised on the size and talent of the O-line prospects that CC has been able to recruit.  Our line this weekend held a very good defensive front back and gave the QB's time.

5.  Facilities We saw this weekend what a real scoreboard looks like (not saying we need that scoreboard) My point is that even though Whitewater is D3, I am sure recruits feel like they are considering a big time program when they visit Whitewater.  Our facilities with a little work could get the same response.

6.  Academics Not much we want to do here.  Just need to recruit harder and find the Student/athletes that fit.

7.  Keep Winning - The more NCAC Championships and deep playoff runs that we have, the easier it will be to recruit the players we are looking for.


I am sure that CC knows what he needs, the tough part is going out and getting it.

[BayernFan]

I agree with all you say.  As for facilities, I assume you mean the football field itself?  Ten years ago or so, the College puts tons of $ into the Athletic facilities.  The stadium needs refurbished, and there is no reason why a video scoreboard or something like that could not be put in there.  Doesn't need to be 3 stories tall (vbg) but totally modern, with scores from around the state, conference, and Big Ten would be good.  Wabash can afford whatever it wants to do.

So what does Wabash want to do?

[joepieters]

Frankly, is the Stagg Bowl a realistic goal, right now? I think we'd need to see slips by Mt. Union, the WIAC, and Mary-Hardin Baylor.

The idea of a conference, especially in D-3, is that schools associate with their peers for competition.

If winning the whole thing isn't the goal, then what's the point? 

You play to win the game!  Hello! 

Winning is the goal.  

But winning in a lot of different ways is a function of who you can recruit, and I think that we all need to be realistic about who Wabash can recruit given what it is as an institution: a small liberal arts college for men in central Indiana with rigorous academic requirements.  

In order to avoid opening a can of worms, let me start by saying that all Div III schools have high academic requirements.  But the other three elements also impact what you can do from a football perspective, and these are things that either cannot be changed about the College, or that I suspect that the vast majority of the Wabash alumni on this board would not be willing to change.  

Obviously we're not moving the campus.  I don't reasonably suspect that we have the physical plant available or the personnel to bring in 5,000 students and serve them effectively (especially 5,000 guys), and we're not going coed.

So we recruit like hell to get who we can based upon who we are and let the chips fall where the may.

[BayernFan]

I think that Wabash can continue to recruit solid football players, despite its status as all-male, because it has developed a strong reputation for being a football power.  A kid who is being recruited to Wabash knows that Wabash will win a lot of games and contend for the NCAC title every year, and will thus have an opportunity to play in the playoffs every year.   Add to that the mystique of it being all-male (tough), and its reputation as top notch academically, and you've sold a lot of parents as well.

So if Wabash can drop some coin on Stadium and field and scoreboard improvements, that would be huge as well.  I thought I read somewhere that Wabash was planning something in that regard this upcoming year?

Also, has our Arizona connection dried up?  I thought I only saw a couple AZ seniors on the roster.

[bashbrother]

I agree with all you say.  As for facilities, I assume you mean the football field itself? 

Yes.  The other facilities are top notch and rival anyones.

The key here is making that recruit feel like he is in the "Big Time".   Most top D3 recruits believe they could play at the next level and a top notch stadium is important to making them feel like they are.  I got that "Big Time" feeling this weekend at Perkins Stadium.

[wabashcpa]

Frankly, is the Stagg Bowl a realistic goal, right now? I think we'd need to see slips by Mt. Union, the WIAC, and Mary-Hardin Baylor.

The idea of a conference, especially in D-3, is that schools associate with their peers for competition.

If winning the whole thing isn't the goal, then what's the point?

You play to win the game!  Hello! 

Thank you, Wally - exactly my point.  Winning the conference is a great starting point, and the Monon Bell game is a great rivalry, but the goal should be a championship.  Doesn't mean the season isn't successful if you don't accomplish that goal, but you have to set your sights high.

Bashbro, great post on recent history of Whitewater.  Proves it can be done - regardless of our "limitations".  We have unique selling points - use them to our advantage.  Turn those limitations into opportunities - be creative.

[BashDad]

Bro:

Awesome post. +K.  I think where in 2002 we had excellent skill guys (a top notch run game behind Morris who was the only bright spot in the loss to Mount) and no size or equatable speed on the outside,  this year we had the inverse--

I thought our line-play, offensively anyway, was rather good. You could tell we had gotten bigger and faster since that trip to alliance; just didn't have any offensive firepower beyond that.

Hudson will grow up, hopefully work on that janky technique of his, and if Wabash can find a runningback that can compete at the highest of levels, then there's no reason a championship should be considered unrealistic.

And, you know, defense is important too, I guess.

Finally, and this may be a conflict of interest, but I'd remind the doomsday folk that the 2005 team blew Wabash's best shot in years to really prove that they could compete at the elite level of DIII.  That team, in my opinion, would have stacked up well against anybody and I can assure you that the team viewed a national championship as a "realistic" goal.