FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[wally_wabash]

I brought in Herm to bluntly take my stance on this question and to be a little bit funny, but I'll take a little more time here to seriously answer this question...

This question of whether or not Wabash is maxing out at the quarterfinal level is something that I've discussed offline with several guys and thought a lot about with myself over the last couple of days.  Can we realistically compete with schools that have such enormous enrollments (UWW), or are located in football-rich regions of the earth (MUC, UMHB)?  It's a hard question to answer and it's obvious that there are some disadvantages that Wabash has (most of which have been outlined in recent posts).  But after a lot of thought, I truly don't believe that these disadvantages are disabilities...I believe that Wabash can get to the top of the mountain. 

10 years ago, most kids on campus probably didn't even know that a Division III playoff existed...that's how middle-of-the-pack Wabash was.  Yes, the LGs had "winning" seasons year after year, but the playoffs were never even an option.  Now, in the last six seasons, Wabash has made the playoffs three times and been to the regional final twice.  Wabash is becoming a regular guest at this little party called the playoffs...and that's a huge step.  This has been a pretty rapid rise for Wabash and to think of where the program came from just a decade ago, there's no reason to think that there isn't room for more improvement. 

They'll get there...just so long as they believe the goal is realistic.  And I believe that it is. 

[smedindy]

We play to win the game, yes. But it's not doomsday to be realistic in goal-setting.

Making the final 8 shows we are an elite team. But there's elite and there's the super-elite.

The WIAC champ is always considered a Stagg Bowl contender just because of the road one must take to win the WIAC.

I'm just being realistic that we'd normally have to go through the Purple to get to the Stagg Bowl. (This year we met another batch of purple) Right now, we're not at that level. What Wabash will need to do is keep making the playoffs and advancing in the playoffs. Over time, we'll get there. 

[Li'l Giant]

Finally, and this may be a conflict of interest, but I'd remind the doomsday folk that the 2005 team blew Wabash's best shot in years to really prove that they could compete at the elite level of DIII.  That team, in my opinion, would have stacked up well against anybody and I can assure you that the team viewed a national championship as a "realistic" goal.

I can understand your feelings from the inside. But I assure you none of us think the 2005 team "blew" anything. I was only able to listen to the Capital game but from what I've heard from those that were there it was an intense game that we almost won against a team that took Mount Union the distance a week later.

[aueagle]

How come nobody adds RHIT to the list? They have outstanding academics & the football is ok...nice stadium too. I still like the idea of The Super Conference made up of Indiana, Ohio, Pa. schools. Add Westminster in Pa. to the Gators and DePauw & RHIT with the LG's in Ind. Ohio might have to be restructured to a degree...I haven't checked to see if the Titans have the pedigree for the NCAC. Recruiting is a major KEY to the division. I don't care if your a UWW or Earlham...if the coach, school, admissions, alumni, student-athletes can SELL their product then it has the opportunity to obtain the level of success they want. To say a school isn't in the area for "football rich region" ...I could name many schools that sit in or next to large metro areas and have trouble getting noticed by the local HS coach & players. Facility warfare had trickled down to D3  many seasons ago... This is why I asked for the Case game, what other schools were there... 1) support for the NCAC and 2) use the playoff game as a recruiting tool.

[nike]

Paperwork done.  OK.  Very complicated discussion here.
A great stadium is nice, but no guarantee. Just look at OWU.  As mentioned earlier, I think so much is dependent on enrollment size.  But then I look at MUC and figure that place is an anomaly(sic).  Meaning some type of perfect storm has happened there since Kehres got there.  They get a lot of good players, but it is so much more.
How many players, really good players, would bide their time at Wabash like they do at the Mount?  Or at Wooster?  They all think they should play now, their first year.  Cannot explain MUC other than Kehres.  He was being mentioned for the OSU job in the same breath as Tressel way back when.  Can CC get to the finals?  I thought this year it was possible, even after reading up on Beaver and his teammates.  We were  very wrong.  When Sutton and Co. were here was our chance for the big dance.
To be continued....

[Warren Thompson]

Most top D3 recruits believe they could play at the next level .... 

Just to play the devil's advocate (and assuredly not to rain on your parade) ... but "most top D3 recruits believe they could play at the next level"? 

Perhaps some few of them, but, then, if they were truly that good, they'd actually be playing at the "next" level. Wouldn't they?

[Duster72]

I think that BPHLG Stadium could use a basic freshening up.  It needs a new pressbox and some landscaping, etc, could really go a long way towards making the place look more inviting.  It kind of reminds me of the gloomy feeling of old Riverfront stadium.  Also, the restrooms and concessions area could use a renovation.  How cool would it be if the bookstore had a booth behind the bleachers with the essential Wabash tees, sweatshirts and hats?  A slightly better scoreboard would be nice.  I think a jumbotron would be very out of place on campus and would become a major source of bitching from faculty.  The place doesn't need to be completely overhauled, just fine tuned.

The biggest roadblock to Wabash moving up to the next level in football is probably DePauw.  Basically, we split recruits with them every year and having two school so darn similar to each other within 30 miles definitely makes recruiting tough.  Their cute co-eds definitely are tough to recruit against.

At the end of the day, however, we all love Wabash because it's Wabash.  It's unique.  If we changed anything to try to get to the top of the football mountain it wouldn't be worth it.  And how much more gratifying is it to win the Bell game in light of the fact that Wabash has such tough recruiting roadblocks?

[Duster72]

Almost forgot: Adding RHIT and DPU would make the NCAC perfect IMO.  It would be one of the best all-around conferences in the country.  I wish they would join us.

[smedindy]

As said many times before - Rose can't join as they have no PBK chapter.

The logical two schools to join the NCAC would be DePauw and Washington & Jefferson. The NCAC could split into two divisions for all sports, and it would benefit ALL sports.

East - Allegheny, Hiram, W & J, Wooster, Oberlin, Kenyon
West - Wabash, DePauw, Earlham, Wittenberg, Ohio Wesleyan, Denison

However - the agreement with the UAA has rather much trumped this talk. And frankly, three of the UAA have been good to great in football the past two seasons and the fourth (Chicago) has had some success a few years back. So the UAA foursome is probably a good test for the NCAC in football, and actually it would be good to extend the agreement to hoops (though the UAA doesn't have the need in hoops that it does in football).

[firstdown]

Wally Wabash asked the question whether Wabash can realistically compete at the quarterfinal level and above?  The answer though not simple is a qualified yes.  There is no question that the elite D3 schools like UWW and Mount Union are at a different level.  Wabash has been to the playoffs 3 times in the last 5 years, and to the regional finals twice.  At both Mount Union in 02 and Whitewater this year, Wabash didn't bring the A game - well more likely these schools did allow the LG's their A game.  Wabash wasn't in the same league with Wittenberg in 2000, but it closed the gap.  Similarly, the gap can be closed.  The keys are speed, size and experience.  With Hudson only a sophomore this year, he and the other underclassmen will have a lot of playoff experience to bring to the table.  While you can't replace an Adi, the LG's have to continue to build and rebuild - as defense wins championships.   Hopefully it won't be 5 years until our next opportunity.   

[wooscot]

Its not a matter of conference realignment to make the NCAC or other conference teams more competitive with the OAC upper echelon.  Look back within the last 10 years in DIII playoffs.  During the  late 90 s(95-99) the NCAC champions were arguably eye to eye with Mt. Union, maybe some years a touch less talented.  Look at MUC's play off results vs MUC's regular season wins those years and you will notice which teams gave Mt. Union their best games...the NCAC champion.  During those years, the NCAC was a three horse race between Witt, Gheny, and Wooster, with OWU being a distant fourth until 1999.  The "Big Three" were essentially all equal, with Witt, Gheny, and Woo winning a conference championship (or at least a share of the championship) during those years.  The games between the "Big Three" were all very close, much more so than between the current power structure in the NCAC.  The point here being all three - Witt, Gheny and Woo - theoretically would have given MUC all the wanted and more during these years.  At this time in history, the top tier NCAC teams were on par with the top tier OAC teams, including MUC.  The big question here is what happened during the last 6-7 years where there seemed to be a gradual descent from NCAC competiveness with the OAC (and by association, nationally) to regional mediocrity?

Curious to here your thoughts, or even if you agree with the assessment.  I'll get into it later, but my thought is simply this - the OAC schools and others around the region simply allocated more resources and support to the football programs than the NCAC schools, including but not limited to facility improvements/investments, recruiting resources, financial aid/grant aid resources, and overall, a firm committment to each school's football program (and coaching staff) to do what it takes to build a consistent winning program at the DIII level.  My hat is off to Wabash for attaining consistency within the conference, but again, when compared to the MUCS and UWW of the world, the program gab is very wide.  This has less to do with who is your conference than what those already in the conference are doing at their own institution to build a consistent program that can compete nationally. 

[buffettfan1963]

This is a great discussion and one I've had many times over the past seven years or so that I have been watching Wabash and NCAC football.

Can the gap close on the football field? Yes, the gap can get closed, but the stars, moons, planets, everything would have to align before a National Championship will be a "realistic" possibility.

MUC has what, somewhere in the neighborhood of 150 to 200 kids on their roster?

When Bill Lynch was the head coach at DePauw I had a chance to talk with him before the Bell Game that year. I asked him the differences between DI and DIII, and differences in his program at Ball State and others. He said the year they played, I think it was Florida State, that he would have started every single kid that was in a Florida State uniform at Ball State. And that Florida State didn't recurit any of his Ball State kids and that he thought he had ONE player that year that could have played at Florida State. Ball State realistically is not going to be on par with the "big boys" on a year in and year out basis in football.

Now, I don't think the difference is THAT big, but it's somewhere in that neighborhood. That's not going to change by hitting the weights harder, or by changing the scheme, realistically, that's not going to change because the pool isn't going to change.

Wabash, and the other NCAC schools, are going to recruit a certain type of student/athlete and that's not going to change. That is NOT a knock on MUC or Whitewater as I'm sure they are both VERY fine academic institutions. But there is a reason that Stanford or Duke or Northwestern have limited football success. And by limited I mean that Northwestern has made it to the Rose Bowl a couple of times in recent memory, can't recall Stanford being their recently but it seems they were a few years ago too. My point is that those schools aren't going to change themselves just to satisfy getting into a BCS bowl on a yearly basis. They are what they are, and that really isn't going to change.

Why do any of us think it's going to be any different at the DIII level? Of course the players think it's a realistic goal, they're supposed to think that. 

I don't think it's impossible for them to get to Salem, but I will say it is VERY unlikely. For those of you that were at MUC in 2002 and at Whitewater this past weekend, you saw the difference first hand.

The Little Giants have accomplished some great things. The conference championships, getting to the playoffs three times in the past six seasons, winning at least one game all three times and making it to the quarterfinals twice, those are tremendous feats for the school.

I don't think any fan on this board wants their schools to change just to satisfy their football cravings. As has been pointed out, it's an incredibly well balanced and great conference for sports. National Powers in Baseball, Swimming, Soccer, Basketball etc., nothing at all to be ashamed of.

[Duster72]

At this time in history, the top tier NCAC teams were on par with the top tier OAC teams, including MUC.  The big question here is what happened during the last 6-7 years where there seemed to be a gradual descent from NCAC competiveness with the OAC (and by association, nationally) to regional mediocrity?

I wasn't around the NCAC back when they could compete with MUC.  Is the opinion generally that the NCAC has gone that far downhill, or is it possible that some of the other schools have gotten that much better?

Based on the fact that Wabash won rather convincingly against CWRU and MSJ, I would tend to think that they are a pretty darn good team.  The fact that UWW stomped us doesn't mean we didn't have a great team.  To me, that means that UWW is insane good.

So is it possible that now there are just a few teams that are insane good?  Would the NCAA championship teams of the early 90s be able to compete with the elite teams today?  I would like to know from someone who's been around longer than I have.

[BashBacker#16]

Duster72 -

Wabash & DePauw DO NOT "split recruits" each year - that is such an easy assumption but not the case.  Anyone that says they do is clearly not knowledgeable to recent recruiting battles.  Up to this year, CC and his staff lost less then a handful of recruits to DPU each season.  Guarantee that.  This past year, DPU did do well and we likely split if you want to call it that.  DPU's coaching changes were incredibly rough on their recruiting and CC cleaned up.  Ross Wiethoff and Spud Dick are 2 very good examples (exceptions) that ended up in Greencastle and Wabash was on both of those guys pretty hard.  Bottom line though, whether they would admit it or not, they chose DPU to play for 4 years.  The timing was off and Wiethoff would NOT have beaten Jake Knott out (would have battled Harbaugh his Soph season) nor would Spud had beaten Dustin Huff out (would have likely had to wait until his Junior year).  Often times a kid will look at both schools but at the end of the day, many less kids have it down to Wabash or DePauw then you would think.  If a kid weighs football heavily, that kid is still going to favor Wabash.  Until DPU starts making the "dance" on a routine basis and knocking off Trinity and now Millsaps...that won't happen.  Football is a much bigger deal at Wabash.

[wooscot]

duster,

ok, let's assume that the ncac and other conferences are still playing comparatively the same "level" of football it had played when it competed with MUC during the 90s.  The question then becomes what did MUC and UWW and some others do within their programs/academic institutions  to create such a drastic seperation?  I'm curious to hear thoughts on this from our OAC brethern as well.  Who knows, maybe its as simple as coaching.  Kehres is obviously the BEST in DIII and arguably one of the best in all of college football. 

buffett,

I agree to a point that schools like MUC and UWW have superior talent on the whole simply due to the fact they have many more kids within the program.  However, I would like to belive the best players at Wabash, Witt and Woo could start for any program.  I don't think the talent seperation is as great as it is at the DI level where you have programs like a MUC who wouldn't take ANY player at a mid-level NCAC school.  Knowing the way MUC recruits, I'd say half the players in the NCAC (at least the ones from Ohio) received some sort of letter, phone call or even visted MUC during their recruitment.    I guess the problem as it relates to recruiting is simply quantity AND quality.  MUC and UWW obtain both, while other programs may get the quality at certain positions, but are left simply filling numbers at others. 

Why is this?  Some argue its simply academics - can't admit the number of players and quality of players the program needs.  Others think its directly attributable to facilities - kids like shiny big facilities, i.e. UWW stadium, new fieldhouses, weightrooms, locker rooms, etc...because it makes them feel like they are at a "big time" school.  Plus, generally speaking, the schools with the "best" facilities have generally earned them, hence they win and win consistently.  So, you have a situation where a school has great facilities, admits a lot of borderline kids academically, recruits as many kids as possible (greater emphasis on some over others), and the program flat out WINs.  Its an easy sell as to why kids want to enter programs like the MUCs and UWW.  If you can't be a DI kid, why not go to a DIII powerhouse with great facilities, get treated well, and WIN national championships?  I think most good DIII schools have 5-10 DI caliber players - some have more others have less - and I would argue MUC probably only has a marginal number higher than this.  The difference is they get more talented DII-DIII kids to come to MUC than other schools for the reasons above. 

However, i would argue the ultimate and overiding factor is coaching.  Its that simple.  MUC wasn't always a dynasty, neither was UWW, and the list goes on.  Look at a programs successful periods vs average ones and typically the one constant factor is coaching - change in head coaches, assistants, etc... that were directly attributable to the rise and/or fall of the program.