FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[footballfan413]

Happy to welcome all the Wabash faithful onto the Warhawk band wagon.  We will always make room, especially for a group that can tailgate like yours can!     You were a very classy and enthusiastic group!  Good luck next season. 

[wooscot]

Bash faithfull,

Go Warhawks???  Seriously???  I know MUC is the equivalent of the NY Yankees, or vice versa, but I have to stick with an Ohio team for the NCAA championship.  MUC is a LONG time rival of Wooster, though they have not played in awhile, but still, I have to root for the home state squad.

[wabco]

Well ... Wooscot ... hope you lose twice this football season:

Once to Wabash .... which you have

Once to Whitewater ... which would also be pleasant.


AND ... Ohio's only purpose is to connect PA with IN and MI

GO Warhawks and finish the run!

[footballfan413]

Not being in Whitewater for the game, I can see how it might be hard to understand but the Hawks and the Bash fans bonded out there in that cold snowy parking lot.   

[smedindy]

I'm throwing my support to Whitewater as well. From all accounts, good people, good football fans, plus since I'm in the Northland now, I gotta represent.

[wooscot]

Look, I'm sure the Bash and Warhawk fans had a great time last Saturday keeping each other warm in the cold.  I'm sure the UWW fans were classy too, which is great.  Visitors should be treated well when they travel to foreign lands in a blizzard, even if their team does get beat like a red headed step child.

However, despite the kinships developed during this experience, I'm a little surprised that the Bash faithful would so quickly support a team and institution like UWW.  Its one thing to say you had a great experience there, that the fans treated you well, and despite the arctic conditions, the atmosphere was great.  Its completely another to support a DIII institution, that in my opinion, has such a competitive advantage over most other DIII institutions - including Mt. Union - that I'm absolutely schocked they do not win more Stagg Bowls.  Let me explain.

UWW is a state institution with an enrollment of over 10,000 undergraduate and graduate students.  Its in-state tuition is right around $6000 PER YEAR and out of state is around $13000 per year.  Furthermore, the AVERAGE ACT score for incoming first-years is right around 22-23, just about the same for MUC if not a touch lower.  Essentially, this school is the public version of MUC.  It offers much, much cheaper tuition than MUC or any private school for that matter (Woo is over $40,000 tuition room and board right now), its admissions standards are in the same ball park, if not a touch lower,  and clearly it takes a lot of pride in its football program via facilities, recruiting, coaching (former offensive coordinate Zweifel is a guru on zone offensive schemes).  The fact that its a state institution is not a negative (I went to a state school for graduate school), but indicates that UWW has many built in advantages over its private school counterparts.  I would say the same thing for the other UW DIII state institutions as well, but its looks like UWW over the years has seperated itself on the gridiron from its sister schools.

My point is this - if we are going to consistently criticize MUC, its hard to root for UWW in the same breath without sounding a little bit hypocritcal.  The only things missing are the Stagg Bowl victories.  I believe even Kehres himself for years when asked who should be favored to win the Stagg would point out the UW DIII schools (Whitewater, Stout, LaCrosse) as being the favorites.  Their tuition is much cheaper, they are relatively easy schools to get into, and they have great facilites and traditions.  In essence, its easier to recruit A LOT of quality players with these types of advantages.

Just imagine if football hotbed states like Florida or Ohio had a few DIII public institutions with football teams.  With state funding for some facilities coupled with relatively dirt cheap tuition and state beneifts/salary for the coaching staffs, you would see juggernauts spring up in a matter of years. 

Just my thoughts.  I will still be rooting for MUC b/c they are an Ohio team and I truly do respect with the same amount of respect I give MUC, UWW.  Classy fans from what I gather, great tradition, smashmouth football, etc...which is awesome.  However, for me, its hard to get behind an out of state school with soooo many built in advantages compared to its private school counterparts.  In a lot of ways, MUC is an underdog to schools like UWW, which makes their consistent success even more remarkable.

I'll duck and cover now.   

[footballfan413]

Classy, Wooscot , just when a couple of schools on both sides of that age old debate were finding some common ground.  Not biting.   

[wally_wabash]

MUC is an underdog to UW-Madison.  Maybe. 

If we're all so much smarter and more affluent than the WIAC schools, then we ought to be able to figure out a way to beat them, right?  I'm not buying into this admisssions/tuition stuff...I don't disagree that the WIAC schools inherently have a bigger pool of kids to draw from which is advantageous, but I don't agree that such a thing can't be overcome by smaller private schools.  We might have to work a little harder at targeting and landing the kinds of players who are sized/skilled enough to compete at the highest level of D3 and also fit the academic profile of the College, but those kids are out there and they can be landed.  Championship football AND a top tier education?  It can't be that hard to sell that combo plate, can it? 

Go Warhawks!

[smedindy]

I don't think we need to be all NESCAC-y about the Warhawks. They fill a niche for students in Wisconsin, and also play by D-3 rules.

[wooscot]

Which age old debate are you referring too?  I'm simply making a comparison between schools in order to make a point that not only do UWW and MUC have much in common, UWW actually has a couple big institutional advantages on MUC and some other top-tier DIII programs at private schools.  Given your response, I assume the public vs. private debate has run its course many times on some other boards which was unbenowst to me. 

I know the academic card has been played a lot by the NCAC vs the OAC, in particular against MUC and ONU, but I think all of us have finally come to grips with it in our own way.  I wasn't being critical, just pointing out an advantage.  I've already stated here that I think the Woosters, Kenyons, Denisons and Oberlins should do more to admit "borderline" kids to give them the opportunity to succeed.  Not suggesting they lower their standards, but simply recognize kids who can provide a service to the college on the field of competition that other kids cannot provide and weight that as a big positive in admitting those kids.  We're not talking kids with a 2.5 and 17 ACT (and I am NOT suggesting MUC or UWW or ONU routinely admits kids with the NCAA minimum scores either), but kids that might just be below what the school usually admits.  I think its sometimes unfair to ding a kid on his admissions application simply based upon numbers, in particular test scores.  I know a lot of kids when I was at Wooster who were suspect admits (Woo once upon a time was much more cooperative with the football program) who ended upon blossoming intellectually at Woo, making Dean's List, etc.. . 

This reflects two things: 1) the kids were smarter and more motivated than their H.S. scores indicated and 2) the college does a great job in fostering an environment where these "borderline" kids recognize the importance of their opportunity at a fine institution like COW and motivates them to succeed in the classroom.  All these kids need is an opportunity and I applaud schools like UWW and MUC for providing that opportunity for kids like this.  As I said, I wish more schools would "selectively" admit more of these kids who can give something back to the college on the field of competition.  But, the reality is they do not, hence a situation is created - by choice - of inherent inequality within DIII recruiting between institutions.  I just think its important to recognize and not put our heads in the sand about the realities here. 

When is the last time we saw a school like Amherst, Williams, Oberlin, Kenyon, Swarthmore, etc...make a deep run into the DIII football playoffs?  I think when you look at it, as far as consistent competitive DIII teams go that are considered top-tier liberal arts institutions also, Wabash is about as balanced an institution as you are going to find consistently.  The only reason I raised this whole issue is that I found it funny that Wabash fans would so quickly jump on the UWW bandwagon when UWW epitomizes what traditionally the Wabash crew have been so critical of because of the obvious similarities between UWW and MUC and the advantages UWW actually has over MUC.

Now, I'm probably being too critical of something really stupid and I acknowledge that, but let me ask this of the Wabash folks - if you had traveled to MUC last week instead of UWW, got waxed 47-7 in the same conditions, but had the exact same positive experience with the MUC fans, etc..., would you be rooting for MUC to win the Stagg Bowl instead?

I have a good hunch, in particularly in Ohio, that if a small state school, like a Cleveland State or if the branch campuses at OSU, Kent, Akron, BG or any of the other state schools in Ohio, decided to invest public funds into creating a football team that would someday be sanctioned as NCAA DIII, every single private institution in the state would cringe. 

[Mr. Ypsi]

Poor choice of examples with Amherst and Williams going deep in the football playoffs - the NESCAC, for whatever reasons, spurns the playoffs (in fact, spurns playing ANY noncoference games) in football.  Amherst is, however, the defending national champion in basketball, and Williams has seemingly perpetual ownership of the Sears' Cup (all-sports trophy).  When they choose to compete, the expensive, elite schools seem to somehow hold their own!

[wooscot]

Ypsi,

You are right, bad example for football with the East Coast schools.  However, for rest, it rings true.   I don't like comparing football to basketball or for any other sport for that matter.  Too many differences, particulary in the numbers category.  One or two suspect borderline admits for a football team per year has a much less impact on the team than one or two borderline admits for basketball, baseball, track, swimming, lacrosse, soccer, etc... .   

Anyway, I'm off the topic now.  I guess my frustration at the roller coaster that has become fighting scot football is getting to me.  Anybody making the trip to Alliance Saturday?

[wally_wabash]

The only reason I raised this whole issue is that I found it funny that Wabash fans would so quickly jump on the UWW bandwagon when UWW epitomizes what traditionally the Wabash crew have been so critical of because of the obvious similarities between UWW and MUC and the advantages UWW actually has over MUC.  

If it's enrollments/tuition/admissions criteria that you're talking about, I don't think that "the Wabash crew" has been particularly critical...in fact quite the opposite.  Most of the regular Wabash posters here that I've conversed with can't stand the academic card and actively speak out against it.

Until this recent run of playoff success for Whitewater, the WIAC was not a good playoff conference.  In fact, if we jump into the way-back machine and go to the end of the playoffs in 2004, you may be shocked at the playoff records of our conferences since the expansion in 1999.  From 1999 through the Stagg Bowl of 2004:

NCAC playoff record: 9-7
WIAC playoff record: 5-7

It's not been until this 2+ year postseason tear that UW-W has been on that the WIAC's playoff record has gotten pretty good.  I believe that if the WIAC's advantages (and I'm not denying that they do have advantages) were so great that they would have been advancing further in the postseason on a more regular basis than they were. 

And don't get frustrated...I think this is a good topic and a good debate.  This is really what's at the heart of the D-III/D-IV issue, isn't it?  This dialogue is really pretty important in today's landscape of small college athletics. 

[Knightstalker]

Today let us remember our Soldiers and Sailors who lost their lives at Pearl Harbor and those who survived the attack in our prayers and thoughts.

[aueagle]

Knightstalker: At 0758 this am I  already said my prayers....66 yrs ago on a Sunday...Never Forget...just like 9/11..
Isn't the NCAA talking about D3 (Restructure?) this spring? Or, did I read that on this site a couple of weeks ago...

"AND ... Ohio's only purpose is to connect PA with IN and MI"
'Dems fightin' words-wabco!! LOL

I go with my conference...and MUC is the Evil Empire...they must go down..