FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[wally_wabash]

Back the wagon up, bashbro.  It stinks that we're out and it stinks that we got squashed, but it's patently unfair to say that the NCAC teams have anything to do with it.  It's unfair to say the other teams in our conference blew our shot at greatness.  We expected to be in the playoffs and we got there...with a team consisting of players that were in the playoffs last year.  Experience...we had it.  I won't deny that our schedule isn't great and that we don't get the best "prep" for the postseason, but the onus is on Wabash to be ready to play the teams that we have to play in the playoffs.  We've been there enough to know what time it is.  In the past, the Wooster hoopheads have tried to use the weak NCAC schedule as a reason that they can't win it all and it's bogus.  It's just as bogus for Wabash football. 

So now we hit the recruiting trail...we lift...we practice our butts off in the spring and in the summer and we come back next November and take another stab at this thing we call the playoffs.  As long as we believe it, we'll make it happen.  That's how it works at Wabash.  We'll get there.  I know we will.   

[BashDad]

I understand disappointment, but this just doesn't fit the motto......WAF!!!

WAF, indeed-- but the level of disappointment right now is not just about a weak schedule, but the merit of a team that doesn't stand as tall as that schedule seemed to suggest.

Once upon a time, winning outright in the NCAC meant you were pretty damn competitive nationally. Those days, at the moment, are far gone. Getting walloped by yet another conference's second-best sure doesn't inspire confidence, especially for a program that has done well to establish and raise-- amongst its fans, alumni, and a national audience--expectation.

Mount Union is Mount Union and Mount Union, this ain't. This Bash team was woefully blown up by a shiny record and inflated stats and that bubble got burst, violently, twice. I think we're all just wishing we'd been given an indication of our problems a little earlier; and I'm sure that the staff in Crawfordsville probably does too.  If you think the losses to Depauw and Wheaton have no correlation to those teams having two losses in much tougher leagues, I cry bologna. Depauw didn't have any overwhelming athletes, no better than ours, and as for Wheaton: what the hell happened since that scrimmage in august? They got good and we didn't? How? Maybe they played better teams.

In any case, this is all in reaction to our team and our players not being as good as we thought they were. And that's a bummer. We don't, after all, have any Knotts or Suttons or Chris Kerns' or Pierre Garcons or Blake Elliots. We don't have those elite type of players.  Watching the Bell game, it was apparent from the beginning-- You never looked at the screen and mistook someone for being a DI guy, the way you could during the 2001 bell game or 2002's Witt game or last year's Stagg Bowl (hell, even in today's Millsaps game; Bobby Swallow and Joseph both were really impressive). And to be blunt, you need a couple of those guys to be successful outside of our league. We ain't got'm. Not yet.

And finally: as much as this sucks, I believe in our school and our program and our guys. They'll learn from this. Surely more than if they hadn't been in the playoffs at all. They earned the trip and they should be congratulated. That senior class is the most successful class to leave the program and doing so with back-to-back trips to the playoffs is no small thing. A decade ago, Bash followers weren't afforded the opportunity to gripe about runs for the Walnut and Bronze. As a program and a community, I think we've earned as much. Any other reaction would be irresponsible and, to me, wholly disheartening. Let's keep pushing.

Wabash Always Fights.

[Duster72]

It doesn't have anything to do with the schedule.  This team was tested by Witt and barely escaped with a victory.  The Woo game was much closer than the final score indicated and Wabash had to play their tail off to beat them. 

Wabash played their schedule and won the games we should have won.  Playing better teams would have just been more losses.

I know that I mentioned a month ago that this team couldn't stay within 21 of the 2003 team.  Surely I'm not the only loyal fan who thought we were overrated in the polls.  The #3 team in the country should be blowing Witt and Woo away - with all due respect to those teams - seriously.

The bottom line is that we won another conference championship and that's a huge achievement.  It's something to build on and hopefully we'll get some good recruits.  I know ER will push these guys in the off season and they'll get better.  The returning players will have a year in the system and should be more comfortable.  We've got a great team coming back next year and should be poised for another playoff run.

Compared to 10 years ago, it's a great time to be a Wabash fan.  Let's enjoy it rather than pick it apart after a disappointing end to the season.

[firstdown]

Congrats to the LG's for another great season.  While it didn't end up as we all would have wanted it to, this group of seniors certainly has many accomplishments of which to be proud.  While there was little to enjoy at yesterday's game, I was touched by the dogged determination of Tony Neymeiyer to try and play, and then watching him on the sidelines trying to ignite his teammates.  While the fire didn't quite catch, his WAF spirit will spur his underclassmen teammates in years to come.  I also want to congratulate Darryl Kennon on his career.  BJ and Blair Hammer had set quite a mark for future Little Giants to shoot for.  Darryl took up that challenge, and has set a new career sack record.  He is truly  "Some Little Giant!"

[ScotLass]

Once upon a time, winning outright in the NCAC meant you were pretty damn competitive nationally. Those days, at the moment, are far gone. Getting walloped by yet another conference's second-best sure doesn't inspire confidence, especially for a program that has done well to establish and raise-- amongst its fans, alumni, and a national audience--expectation.

Mount Union is Mount Union and Mount Union, this ain't. This Bash team was woefully blown up by a shiny record and inflated stats and that bubble got burst, violently, twice. I think we're all just wishing we'd been given an indication of our problems a little earlier; and I'm sure that the staff in Crawfordsville probably does too.  If you think the losses to Depauw and Wheaton have no correlation to those teams having two losses in much tougher leagues, I cry bologna. Depauw didn't have any overwhelming athletes, no better than ours, and as for Wheaton: what the hell happened since that scrimmage in august? They got good and we didn't? How? Maybe they played better teams.

I am calling BS on this entire thread of thought.

"Once upon a time, winning outright in the NCAC meant you were pretty damn competitive nationally. Those days, at the moment, are far gone"......you would have to go back 30 years, when Witt had it's dominating run in the 70's, to find the NCAC doing better than they have since 2000.
Since 2000, out of over 230 teams, the NCAC champions have been in the final 16 teams 3 times and the final 8 teams 4 times. 2003 and 2006 are the only years that the NCAC champ has only made it to an automatic bid.

"Mount Union is Mount Union and Mount Union, this ain't". I guess it's easy to forget that Mount Union wasn't Mount Union.....until they were.
Using this whole train of thought, Kehres must have needed his head examined when he took over in 86. Looking at the astonishingly few times the OAC had a team in the Stagg prior to that must have been depressing. Must have been a real letdown to win the conference in 86 and then not win it in 87,88,89, and 91....must have gotten lucky or something to finally get to the Stagg in his 8th season.........

Somehow, after having seen Kehres in action, I vote for the "or something". I am pretty sure he didn't bemoan that the competition just didn't do enough to prepare his team. Somehow I think, then and now, his teams are coached to play the best flat-out football they have in them game in and game out, no matter what level of competition they think they are facing.

"I think we're all just wishing we'd been given an indication of our problems a little earlier; and I'm sure that the staff in Crawfordsville probably does too.  If you think the losses to Depauw and Wheaton have no correlation to those teams having two losses in much tougher leagues, I cry bologna." If beating Denison by 14, Washington by 15, Witt in a squeaker by 3, Woo by 21 after getting 6 turnovers, and a pretty handy loss to DePauw didn't give any indication that a climb to the Stagg Bowl for Bash was going to be a pretty steep one....bologna.

"Depauw didn't have any overwhelming athletes, no better than ours, and as for Wheaton: what the hell happened since that scrimmage in august? They got good and we didn't? How? Maybe they played better teams" BS.....using this logic, Hiram should have won the NCAC by now. You win when A) you have the talent and B) you rise to the level you are capable of, no matter who you play, or what the hype surrounding you is. Hype is simply that......and it's a double edged sword that should have no place in the mindset of coaches, players, or fans. Hype doesn't win the game.....A and B are what do that. Heck, if rankings and expectations based on the hype were relevant, we wouldn't need to have playoffs. We'd just declare a champion and runners up after the final regular season game.......of course we'd all be wrong as evidenced by the final rankings this year versus who is actually in the final 8.

I didn't bemoan Wooster not making it to the playoffs potentially because Wabash didn't beat DePauw or because the teams we played, except the ones we lost to, didn't provide enough opportunity to rise to the occasion. Wooster didn't make it because they didn't win when their destiny was in their own hands, because of either A or B above, period. 

[bashbrother]

Maybe I over did it a bit, but some are also missing my true point.  But we can all agree to disagree.

onward and upward -

ER with almost a full year under his belt, I am sure, knows what he needs to do.

He will recruit hard and bring in additional talent to compete Nationally.   The School has made a major commitment with the upgrade of facilities...major!   This will have a tremendous impact on recruiting.

ScottLass - I expect Wooster will be near the top, if not at the top of the NCAC Coaches and Media's pre-season polls next year.   It will be a true battle between the W's next year and yes it will help.

WAF!!!

Congrats to this Senior class that will be remembered for many years.

[Schwami]

Well said, ScotLass.  There is a reason they play the games.  Look at Washington & Jefferson.  Oberlin gave them all they could handle in the first game of the year.  They lose to Thomas More and don't win their conference.  Yet they go in to Millsaps and win convincingly against the team that crushed DePauw.  Did W&J play a tougher schedule than Wabash?  Did Franklin?

Sure it is disappointing.  However, there are very few Seniors graduating this year who can say they were in the final 16 three times and the final 8 once.  The list includes Mount Union, Whitewater, Mary Hardin-Baylor, Wesley . . . and Wabash.  Pretty good company, I'd say; something we can be proud of . . . and a solid foundation to build on.

[oldtiger]

Scotlass- Witt was a member of the OAC during the '70s, representing that conference in the '73, '75, '78 and '79 Stagg. They lost the '78 Stagg to B-W (also OAC) after tying the Yellow Jackets in the OAC title game. During that period the OAC was divided into two divisions, the Red and the Blue, with the divisional winners meeting in Finne Stadium (rather convenient for B-W) for the overall championship.

In '77 Witt and B-W ended the regular season ranked #1 and #5, respectively, with B-W's only loss coming in Springfield. The Tigers had knocked off Eastern Ky. to open the season and B-W had beaten Leheigh. The conference championship game conflicted with the first round of the playoffs, or vice versa, and both teams were subsequently left out of the playoff picture. The OAC amended the schedule the following year to avoid the potential conflict.

[ScotLass]

Maybe I over did it a bit, but some are also missing my true point.  But we can all agree to disagree.

onward and upward -
WAF!!!

Congrats to this Senior class that will be remembered for many years.

I do get the point.....the NCAC not being one of the strongest conferences. However, short of changing conferences, I am looking at how a coach and a team deals with that fact and becomes capable of getting further than the final 8.

My stance would be, Bash has had it going on with 2 top 16 and 2 top 8 placings in the playoffs since 2002. To have a strong chance of getting further I would be focused on absolute domination in every game of the season. In my mind, given the questionable strength of the conference, a loss or any wins that weren't convincing would not bode well for advancing further than the final 8. I would define dominating as winning every game by 30 or so.......Mount's closest score was a win by 29.....and I am all about modeling success

[ScotLass]

Scotlass- Witt was a member of the OAC during the '70s, representing that conference in the '73, '75, '78 and '79 Stagg. They lost the '78 Stagg to B-W (also OAC) after tying the Yellow Jackets in the OAC title game. During that period the OAC was divided into two divisions, the Red and the Blue, with the divisional winners meeting in Finne Stadium (rather convenient for B-W) for the overall championship.

In '77 Witt and B-W ended the regular season ranked #1 and #5, respectively, with B-W's only loss coming in Springfield. The Tigers had knocked off Eastern Ky. to open the season and B-W had beaten Leheigh. The conference championship game conflicted with the first round of the playoffs, or vice versa, and both teams were subsequently left out of the playoff picture. The OAC amended the schedule the following year to avoid the potential conflict.

Point taken.....I was simply pointing out that you had to go back that far to find a team in the NCAC, now or ever, doing any better than the conference has done since 2000 and Wabash has been a big part of some real playoff successes recently. Until they (or anybody else in the conference) absolutely dominates in the regular season, I don't see better than the final 8 being realistic. Whomever rises to that challenge has a strong shot at going further, in my humble opinion, weak conference or not.

[wally_wabash]

I didn't bemoan Wooster not making it to the playoffs potentially because Wabash didn't beat DePauw or because the teams we played, except the ones we lost to, didn't provide enough opportunity to rise to the occasion. Wooster didn't make it because they didn't win when their destiny was in their own hands, because of either A or B above, period. 

If you want to hold a grudge against DePauw for maybe/probably knocking Wooster out of the playoffs, I'm totally ok with that.  There's always plenty of room on the anti-DePauw train.   

[Schwami]

In '77 Witt and B-W ended the regular season ranked #1 and #5, respectively, with B-W's only loss coming in Springfield. The Tigers had knocked off Eastern Ky. to open the season and B-W had beaten Leheigh. The conference championship game conflicted with the first round of the playoffs, or vice versa, and both teams were subsequently left out of the playoff picture. The OAC amended the schedule the following year to avoid the potential conflict.

I always wondered how Wabash was able to make the playoffs and get to the Stagg Bowl in 1977 despite a loss in the regular season to Hope College, yet could go 10-0 in 1982 and not make the playoffs.  That explains it. 

Today's playoff format is soooooooooooo much better! 

[formerd3db]

In '77 Witt and B-W ended the regular season ranked #1 and #5, respectively, with B-W's only loss coming in Springfield. The Tigers had knocked off Eastern Ky. to open the season and B-W had beaten Leheigh. The conference championship game conflicted with the first round of the playoffs, or vice versa, and both teams were subsequently left out of the playoff picture. The OAC amended the schedule the following year to avoid the potential conflict.

I always wondered how Wabash was able to make the playoffs and get to the Stagg Bowl in 1977 despite a loss in the regular season to Hope College, yet could go 10-0 in 1982 and not make the playoffs.  That explains it. 

Today's playoff format is soooooooooooo much better! 

Scotlass- Witt was a member of the OAC during the '70s, representing that conference in the '73, '75, '78 and '79 Stagg. They lost the '78 Stagg to B-W (also OAC) after tying the Yellow Jackets in the OAC title game. During that period the OAC was divided into two divisions, the Red and the Blue, with the divisional winners meeting in Finne Stadium (rather convenient for B-W) for the overall championship.

In '77 Witt and B-W ended the regular season ranked #1 and #5, respectively, with B-W's only loss coming in Springfield. The Tigers had knocked off Eastern Ky. to open the season and B-W had beaten Leheigh. The conference championship game conflicted with the first round of the playoffs, or vice versa, and both teams were subsequently left out of the playoff picture. The OAC amended the schedule the following year to avoid the potential conflict.

Point taken.....I was simply pointing out that you had to go back that far to find a team in the NCAC, now or ever, doing any better than the conference has done since 2000 and Wabash has been a big part of some real playoff successes recently. Until they (or anybody else in the conference) absolutely dominates in the regular season, I don't see better than the final 8 being realistic. Whomever rises to that challenge has a strong shot at going further, in my humble opinion, weak conference or not.

You guys bring back some great memories.  I played in that Wabash/Hope College game way back in '77 (oops, dating myself guys ).  Some of us have discussed that on here in past years.  Wabash had a great team and the game was a great one also, very close and played in a blinding rainstorm for parts of it (very muddy too as I recall) in which there was over a 1 hour delay due to lightening.  We were rooting for them in the Stagg Bowl that year against Widner.

As far as the 1982 season, you might recall at that time, the NCAA only took two teams from the same region and, as I recall, B-W and someone else (Augustana?) was ranked ranked ahead of Wabash (the latter which ended up #5 in the final DIII NCAA poll).  Didn't the same thing happen to Wabash back in 1980, as Dayton (then DIII after droping from DI in 1977) and Baldwin-Wallace were ranked ahead of Wabash in the North Region?  (Final DIII NCAA poll that year had Dayton #3, B-W #4 and Wabash #9 and Adrian #10 - and if you can believe it, Bethany, WV was #8, Dubuque was #6!!! )

Anyway, with undefeated teams like Wabash not making the playoffs in such situations, I always thought that was a travesty, yet it was the system in play at that time.  It also happened to both Hope and Adrian in the early '80's with undefeated seasons and being ranked in the top 10 (again with Adrian in 1980 #10; and Hope in 1984 #8).  Hope would have gone, but two teams in the region ranked ahead of them in cluding Dayton.  Although some think the AQ's "water-down" the playoffs, at least it gives most of those type of teams a chance and the top tier teams will weed out the competition as the playoffs progress, as we've seen.   

[formerd3db]

BTW, that was great to recall that in '77 Witt beat Eastern KY and B-W having beaten Lehigh.

[nike]

Wow!
Didn't  Wabash suffer a huge loss(starting qb) last year and still have a great run?  Was it last year that Creighton replaced Hudson with the rusty qb for the playoff game?  Maybe a mistake.  And isn't this Raeburn's first year?  And didn't we watch a Mt. Union team that was arguably better than this year's lose a game they were guaranteed to win in last year's championship game?
What am I trying to say?  The games have to be played.  Coaches have to coach. And players have to play.
ScotLass is right.  Mt. Union was not always a powerhouse.  But the model there by Kehres is unique.  Great players backing up great players, willing to wait their turn.  Wheaton has very tough entrance requirements and has gotten some very, very good athletes.  As has Wabash and Wooster.  But in reading the posts, it seems as if they simply executed better then Wabash.
Wabash will be fine, just as Wooster will be too.  And I hope Hiram continues to improve as well.  As for national championships, well, Witt has done it. And I hope to live to see the Scots do it too.