FB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[ADAWGISADAWG4LIFE]

I never understood the need for a quota if it exsists nor do I see how it is so hard for Kzoo to bring kids in.  The conversation I had with Coach Rogers was at a recruiting night after he had left for Depauw, I asked him if it was any easier recruiting there and he said no, he still needed 3.7's and 27's.  This is no different than Kzoo and Depauw brings in very good recruiting classes and is competitve at a national level.  I would love to see a stronger Kzoo team and another legit contender every year, I can attest from experience that when the stars line up and Kzoo has some good players in their system, they can play the spoiler and be competitive with the top teams in the league.  I just dont know that with the numbers and depth issues that they will ever be able to get over just playing spoiler.

[formerd3db]

bulldog, DAWG, and D306:

I agree with you.  I've never understood the quotas either.  The Ivy Group has those, but that, as we know, is a different story.  I agree that I don't see where not having quotas would hurt Kazoo.  In fact, Hope's admissions standards are even getting tougher.  They have had almost 2800 applications for the about 720 freshman slots for this upcoming school year (i.e. this fall's entering class), and I know of kids who have 3.7 GPA and/or higher and have high SAT scores and they are not getting admitted.  It is becoming very competitive.  Yet, Hope is still competitive in athletics high admissions standards and no-quotas.  Seems Kazoo could do it too without sacrificing their high reputation and associated standards.  As you say, you have to have decent #'s to be at least competitive - if not for the "body count" i.e. having enough players to scrimmage at the very least! (although Coach G at St. John's would argue with that ) 

[formerd3db]

Actually, I meant to type in that I know of some prospective students with 3.8 and 3.9's with high SATs that are not getting admitted there. 

[ACRULZ]

D3DB:

I agree that Hope is a great academic school, however I do not believe that it sits on the same pedestal as Kalamazoo academically.  I also have knowledge of a few kids who applied to Hope and were accepted with far less than a 3.7 and a above average test score.  I am not trying to bash Hope here but I just want to make the point that in terms of academic prestige Kalamazoo far exceeds that of Hope and any other school in the MIAA.  Depending on K-zoo's leadership, they may feel that more of a commitment to athletics may take away some of that prestige academically.

[formerd3db]

Depends on any one individual's perception.  Also, I don't think Hope wants to be "on the same pedestal as Kazoo" -  moreover, they don't need to, nor is there any reason to do so.  I'm not bashing Kazoo either, however, I will take Hope's atmosphere of academics/athletics any day over one like Kazoo's.  Indeed, Kazoo is a tremendous academic school, yet, my education at Hope (and my daughter's) was responsible for placing me right up with anyone in any program with respect to my career (and I do not consider myself an academian by any means) and without a doubt is what landed her her job in her field among many competitors.  As you say, Kazoo may feel that more commitment/attention to athetics may take away some of their academica presitige; they may perceive that, yet in reality, it won't take away the opportunities for it's student-athletes to go on in their chosen careers whatsoever.  But, to each it's own; Kazoo's "powers that be" will do what they want and what they see as best for their school - but, with the current approach, as everyone has said, they'll never attain the level that a Hope, Albion, or Calvin will in athletics overall.  Still, they are a valuable part of the MIAA.   

[ADAWGISADAWG4LIFE]

Adrian College has named Jim Deere the new defensive coordinator.   Coach Deere has been at Adrian for the last 14 years and has coached linebackers with great results as well as having tremendous input on game planning, and all other aspects of the defense as well as calling the defenses for the last several years from the booth.  He will be a great addition to the staff and be able to do even more for the team now that he will be there full time rather than after he gets out of work for practice.  A great hire by Adrian to keep the defense intact and bring in one of the most knowledgeable coaches I have ever met.

[formerd3db]

DAWG:

Thanks for the update.  Congratulations to Coach Deere.  What a nice promotion and situation for him.  It is great to see that Coach Lyall and the Adrian administration has decided to reward loyalty and hard work to someone who has served their program faithfully for a long time.  Also, from what you've shared in the recent past, it is great to see that Coach Deere was in a position to be able to accept a full-time coaching appointment.  Despite his other previous regular job, it is not easy to manage two commitments like he has in the past, especaily in this era of a difficult economy.  Anyway, I wish him well and it appears to be a good move for Adrian.  Sounds like their staff is still stable despite the recent changes.

[blb]

At 'K' admissions are now closer to 3.8, 30, and top ten per cent of class.

K's incoming freshmen classes are capped at 350, or less than half of Hope's, so there a fewer athletes all round, not just for football. But football obviously relies on numbers more.

This year K is bringing in only 12 football players. Their total roster will be around 50, or about the number of freshmen most other MIAA schools will have.

The real problem is not so much admissions as financial aid. It costs around 35 large per year to attend K. FA department makes it so about the only people who can afford the college are those whose parents can afford the full boat, or those who qualify for a lot of "need." So, prospective "middle class" student-athletes usually go where it's more affordable. The college is on a diversity kick in all areas currently, too.

I don't know whether Brooks is the guy to make K competitive on the gridiron or not. He had no head coaching experience and has had to do a lot of "on the job" training. Under the current circumstances, he doesn't have much of a chance, regardless of his abilities.

[formerd3db]

blb:

Welcome to the board and thank you for the update information regarding K's current admissions situation and policies.  Very interesting.  I agree with most of what you discuss with a minor exception regarding the cost of education in the sense that that is not exclusive to K College.  Hope and Albion are right up there with K (Hope will be over $31,000 this year) and all of the MIAA schools are climbing in tuition as are essentially every other college and university.  Regardless of which MIAA school one chooses, it is still more difficult for the middle class potential students for attending and obtaining FA.  Often times, what FA a middle class student qualifies for is miniscule, although every little amount does help.  Regardless, the MIAA schools are still a bargin compared to many of the DIII schools, for example, in Ohio which are about $10,000 more (i.e. in the >$40,000) than K or Hope, and the Ohio schools academics not any better per se than K or Hope.  Again, no slight intended toward Ohio schools, just relating the truth.  Anyway, hopefully, K can continue to improve their fb program and other athletics.  Again, thanks for sharing.   

[blb]

Good points all, db.

What I was trying to say is, for example, if a prospective player is offered a $16g/year package from both 'K' and Hope (which is an average figure and common scenario), and Hope is $4g a year less, where does one go?

Ironically enough, there is a commentary in today's Kalamazoo GAZETTE sports on the state of Kazoo athletics, coinciding with the naming of the school's new AD.

Among the interesting points:

- 24.6% of the student body play at least one varsity sport, apparently a high figure.

- K's overall winning percentage last year was .376, .371 in MIAA. Subtract men's and women's tennis (14-0) from the latter and the figure is .274.

- The new AD (Kristen Smith) says K has the smallest athletics budget in the MIAA by a "good percentage."

- Other areas needing addressing mentioned were facillities and lack of full-time coaches.

- The president was quoted as saying "I would love for our teams to be more competitive, but that's not what keeps me awake at night."

- On a more positive note, the school is awaiting results of an external department review done by AD from Kenyon and athletics-PE chair from Marietta.

Hopefully they will have constructive recommendations for improvements that the K administration and trustees will act upon.

However, the president (ominously perhaps) further said athletics is an area "we need to pay better attention to as soon as our resource space allows."

[ADAWGISADAWG4LIFE]

blb:

It is sad to see that K is only bringing in 12 recruits this year, that is a very poor number and one that wont keep the program around for long.  K has never had big teams that is no doubt, but a twelve person recruiting class, even by recent standards is very poor and I would say a troubling sign.  Academics are a great at K and the high standards are a mark of pride, but the high cost of tuition goes a long way to discourage parents from sending their students to a school such as that.  Having recruited at Adrian, we would always bring up price differences in recruiting, we may have only been offering 12,000.00 for fin aid and K would offer 16,000.00 like you said and we would still come out way ahead.  People say money isnt everything, but it is right up there with food and water so it is a large determining factor.  I was also a bit puzzled by the hiring of Coach Brooks, I think for a school such as K you have to bring in a coach with a large amount of experience in dealing with such a cost restrictive and high caliber private college and especially some amount of headcoaching experience. 

I must say it also blows my mind that a school with a 144 million dollar endowment lacks so much in funding athletic programs which are the lifeblood of division III schools.  That is the dirty little secret of division III, without athletics, the majority of schools would not survive.  I know at Adrian it is over 30% of the students who are involved in athletics with between 10-15% in football alone.  When you look around the MIAA at endowments, Adrian is very small, 38million dollars and still are able to support athletic programs, TSU is even smaller in endowment but is increasing the athletic funding and budget.  Hope has an endowment larger than K and they are also able to make athletics and academics work.  I would have to say that looking from the outside in, it appears that the administration does not really care about the success of the colleges athletic teams and that is their priority as academics should and do come first at all schools.  However I think most schools look at their sports as a point of pride, and it appears that is a point of pride that Kzoo is just not interested in cultivating or embracing which is sad as I know K has had some very good teams and coaches in the past who deserve more.

I would like nothing more than to see K be successful in all their sports and I think everyone in the MIAA would as well as it would be good for the conference.

[ADAWGISADAWG4LIFE]

*** correction ***

Hope's endowment is smaller than Kzoo's. 

[ACRULZ]

WIth the hiring of Deere at Adrian, who has been there for fourteen years, correct?  Will Adrian be running the same defense or are they going to change philosophy?  Also, will he be there just during the season or is he a full-time guy?  Who were some of the other candidates for the job?

[formerd3db]

blb:

The further details you share with us are encouraging.  Kenyon is very similar to Kazoo (I have known a couple of people who have attended that school and their current head fb coach came from the Univ. of Chicago).  I think that if Kenyon can be fairly competitive like they have been heading in the last 3-4 years (recall back in the late '80's they won their conference they were in), then Kazoo can do it also.  The outside review you mention from those particular schools should be helpful.  Sounds like it is not all lost at Kazoo but it will take awhile to get back to where even Rogers had them in his best years.  Keep us posted.

[formerd3db]

DAWG:

Indeed, that low # of recruits is dismal and will not be of much help in the long run as you mention.  I will say, however, that it is highly unlikely that Kazoo would ever drop their program.  There was a nasty and false rumor that they would which some jerk initiated about 2-3 years ago, however, that was entirely false.  I compare them to Olivet and Northwestern as far as having a fb program a reality - i.e. for years people were calling for them to be kicked out of their respective conferences, but it won't happen.  Both programs did what was necessary to make them at least competitive at times and even though we know neither will be a powerhouse ever like some of their fellow conference members, at least the programs survive and provide opportunity for some student-athletes there.

Like blb said, whether Brooks is the one who will help them "turn the corner" and get back to where they seemed headed, at least the year they beat Wabash and when they also had that 2 loss season a few years back, remains to be seen.  However, he deserves the chance and regardless of what level a hc is at (DI, IAA, II or III) they should be afforded at least 5 years - it takes that long at the very least, and particularly to change attitudes among players and everyone else.  I agree with you, though, that we need Kazoo in the league.