FB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[formerd3db]

DAWG and HOF:

Both good points.  I have to agree with you about the intrasquad scrimmage philosophy.  While it is somewhat of a thrill to play another school even in a controlled scrimmage to just "see what we've got and how we might potentially stack up" against a different non-league opponent, for example when Alma scrimmages DII Northwood, I agree with you that it actually serves the team better in preparation for the opening game by going with your own players.  In addition to those that you both mention, another important reason (IMHO) is that it does give players "one last chance" so to speak to prove "their stuff", particularly, say, those who are "on the edge" and competing for starting positions or special teams.

To answer your question DAWG, Hope runs their scrimmage by having full paid refs for the game, 1st D vs. 2nd O and 2nd D vs 1st O, however, new freshman players and others do get significant number of reps; the periods are placed into 25 play sets i.e. the offense gets 25 plays and if they score, kickoff teams and receiving teams get their opportunity just as in a regular game.  Similaryly, there are also special teams periods including goal line situations, field goals, etc.

The entire scrimmage is in a "game day" atmosphere - team photo takes place before the start of warm-ups, parents and many fans line the field, there are T-shirt and souvenier sales, college administration is there in attendance, full athletic training and medical staff with ambulances (unfortunately as you say, there is always the chance of injury and we've had a few in recent years); the entire scrimmage is done by 12:00 Noon which then gives the player the remainder of the weekend off (when it was held on Labor Day weekend, however, Hope's first game is Labor Day weekend this year).  Anyway, that is how it works at Hope.  While some people may think that is old fashioned, it has worked well for Hope.  I am also not saying that for other schools, the other way is not good i.e. each school and coaching staff has to do what they think is best for their program. 

[ADAWGISADAWG4LIFE]

HOF:

Great points.  I know from when I was playing at Adrian we would run the most basic sets of our offense and nothing else.  As a matter of fact we had a whole offense based on Jet motion and the jet sweep etc and we didnt even run it in the scrimmage, we only ran 4 run plays and 4 passes so we were quite vanilla.  As far as the injury bug is concerned I can attest last year with Adrian it was there, we lost AJ Marry a very good ILB to an MCL tear in our scrimmage.  But that could be the case in practice or an intersquad scrimmage as well, those injuries are just to hard to avoid.

formerd3db:

That sounds like a great set up that they have up there in Holland.  I like the idea of the game day atmosphere with the fans, it helps to get players ready, especially the young ones.  It is nice of Hope as well to get their players done early in the day and get them out for the weekend, I know Adrians scrimmage this year is in mid camp or so and from my playing days we had the scrimmage before the end of camp as well.

[HOF]

Injury is hard to avoid in this game of football. 

I've been around some coaches who have told me of injury's at practice, game and some even outside of practice.  The moral of the story....injury(s) happen.

Time to go on the lake for the evening.

[ACRULZ]

DAWG & D3DB:

As a former player myself, I much rather scrimmage a different team, just to see where you stand.  Also It also helps with morale I believe.  Guys get sick of hitting each other all of the time during camp.  i think they get pumped when there is an opportunity to put yourself in a game like situation.

[ADAWGISADAWG4LIFE]

ACRULZ:

From a player standpoint I much preffered to play against another team in a scrimmage.  Its a great test and its different than seeing the same guy you have been seeing all camp.  From a coaching standpoint is where i dont necessarily favor it for the reasons already stated, game planning, etc.

[formerd3db]

ACRULZ:

Being a former player myself like you and DAWG, I can see where you are coming from.  However, one of the pitfalls with scrimmaging another college is that it can become more or less just an exercise for the first team players.  By that I mean the potential is there for the coaching staff to focus only on those players (or at least them and some of the top reserves) as to how they will be preparing for the first game only, rather than really attempting to see which players are going to "step up" and be potentially immediate contributors and choosing who is going to make the traveling squad or perhaps get significant playing time in the first game whether it be home or away.  If several players are "on the fence" in being equal as far as vying for a starting position, the scrimmage (aside from camp) is a legit way to see how they handle it under pressure. thereby allowing the coaching staff to make a decision.

Sometimes, however, in a scrimmage among other colleges, the "reps" are limited which cuts down on the # of a players potential reps on the field at that particular scrimmage; of course, that depends on the "rules and prearranged" design of the scrimmage itself between the two school's coaching staffs .  Also, certainly, anyone can have a "bad day" regardless of the type of scrimmage it is, and that doesn't mean that a player who does poorly in the scrimmage will not have opportunity at more playing time in the future in games, as we all know.  I'm just saying that the "atmosphere" in an intrasquad scrimmage provides for perhaps a better in-depth evaluation as opposed to trying to show that "we can beat this other team and especially if it is a DII scrimmage opponent" - priorities can inadvertantly become askewed even if that is not the intent or desire and that is just the nature of it i.e. no one's fault, neither coaches or players.

At an intrasquad scrimmage such as Hope's, it indeed is a "big day" and as a player, even if one is down the depth chart, if that player is not ready and/or can't get himself up for that (even though he's been scrimmaging against his fellow teammates during camp for the last two weeks), he either should rethink the situation or pehaps not even be there.  Again, everyone will have their own opinion and favorite as to what they would prefer with regard to this "final" scrimmage format (and this is just MO and there are pros/cons for both), but as we all know, as a player, it's out of our hands.    

[formerd3db]

DAWG:

You hit it the exact nature of it i.e. the pros/cons with respect to the vantage point of a player vs. being a coach.

[ADAWGISADAWG4LIFE]

formerd3db:

I know when Adrian and ONU scrimmage it is set up so that it is only 1's and 2's.  Simply from a travel position this makes it more manageable than bringing the whole 150+ person rosters to each others places.  So yes in that sense it fails your freshman and career backups.  But the scrimmage is set up with an open session for each teams 2 offense to go agaisnt the 2 defense for a 25 minute session and run as many plays as they can.  It gets the 2's some solid reps.  It isnt a perfect set up, but it works okay.

[formerd3db]

DAWG:

I suppose that in once sense, you could say that a coaching staff would already have their "mindset" as to who the 1st and 2nd offense and defensive teams would be, so that a scrimmage with another college indeed would be a "tune up" for the first game and perhaps determine a few spots that might be "up for grabs" between a 1st and 2nd team players.  In relation to that, then perhaps now that a great number of college teams have junior varsity teams, that fills the purpose for determining further depth chart status among the newcomers and some other veterans.  Then, as we have previously discussed, the J.V. programs still provides opportunity for these other players to earn a special teams/traveling squad spot with a great performance and/or when unfortunate injuries occur to starters or second team players.

Still, I like the intrasquad scrimmage concept because even if players are "tired of playing against their own" after two weeks of preseason camp, it still makes them feel part of the overall team (even if they know their chances of playing much during the season other than getting in a game or two is small) - unless, as mentioned by others previously, that newcomers are told from the start that they will be part of the J.V. or in some cases, the "all freshman" team for their first season.  The latter I can see with colleges that have a ton of players such as Adrian this year, Hope, Albion, Mt. Union, etc., but in the case of colleges with much smaller numbers, I think that intrasquad scrimmage giving everyone "a final shot at it" works (although you can make a case also that those colleges with smaller numbers, their players are going to get a chance in the scrimmage against another college regardless, again, just due to the numbers situation).

I won't bore you guys further in beating this topic to death anymore, since I think we've all brought out some good points for either system.  As I said before, each coaching staff has to decide which format is best for their program.

Thanks all of you for an interesting discussion.

[ACRULZ]

I would still have to disagree even from a coaches standpoint (I have only coached high school ball however).  If you a good enough job as a coach evaluating in drills, team, 7 on 7, and inside.  You should know who your top players are.  For the upcoming season a coach would need his 1's, 2's, and maybe a few other key guys ready.  As for the 4th or 5th offensive tackle or whatever, well he will get his shot when the time comes.  I don't believe that you can create a game like situation unless you scrimmage another team.  Thats my opinion on the situation.

[HOF]

Six in one and a half dozen in the other...

It is nice to have some former coaches on this board to provide their input.  Football is football, no matter where you coach.  Sometimes I think some coaches in DIII might be smarter than some of the coaches in the higher levels...they just don't know the right people.  Maybe I'm wrong.  I've met some coaches in the high school ranks, that could run circles around other college coaches, but just don't want to get involved coaching college with time and hassle, etc.

Any more schools report to camp this weekend?

[D306]

Albion scrimmage (not sure if it is controlled or a practice game)

Saturday 8-25-07 @ East Grand rapids VS. GRCC. according to the GRCC website.

Any word on practices and whom looks good, for any of the MIAA teams

I read earlier that it was confirmed Albion has some transfers, any word on if they are a difference maker?
I heard 1 is a RB, another possibly a DE/DL.
Not sure of the others.

I had thought Albion would be tough with the returning players from last year, if Albions Defense which took some hits due to graduation, is solid they will make some noise in the Conference race. The offense returns a lot of talent, and gets some of last years early in the year starters lost to injury back for their Senior years.

[formerd3db]

HOF:

Thanks.  I also know what you mean.

D306:

Thanks for the further info regarding Albion.  It will be interesting to see how they fair out.  I have no doubt that Albion will be tough regardless of who they have returning.

Also, for you and HOF and the others, Hope starts tomorrow with practice after physical exams.  With this weekend's heat and humidity wave, especially today, I imagine it will be more than "a sauna" so to speak .  For all the players everywhere, make sure you drink plenty of fluids in between practices to keep hydrated (the training staffs and coaches will obviously make sure that occurs during practices as well).  Good luck to all players as they begin this week.  For the freshmen reporting, welcome to college football one of the greatest lifetime experiences you might have in many ways (hopefully positive for your personal goals); for the seniors, espeically good luck for a great "last hurrah" before the "cheering stops".  You only get one "go around" at this last effort so give it 110%!   

[D306]

Great to see on the D3Football front page that several D3 Alum made some impact this weekend.

I think with the reduction of Scholarships in D1 colleges and the more "open" offenses that D3 players will be more common in the future. WR, Slot, LB, DB are prime locations

[ADAWGISADAWG4LIFE]

Adrian opened camp with somewhere around 80 freshman/transfers on sunday.  No official roster posting as of yet, but from recruiting experience there are some very good freshman in that class.  Whats the word on the other teams?