FB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Raider 68]

Raider 68:

Welcome to the board.  My apologies for this tardy reply to your initial post.  At any rate, I won't reiterate here the reasons why most people feel the level of DIII talent here in Michigan has somewhat decreased in the last 1 1/2 decades as Mr. Ypsi and others have covered that quite well (i.e. the improvement/development of the DII programs).  Many of us had a rather extensive discussion on that here on this and other boards last year.  Many of the MIAA coaches here believe that is the main reason as well.

Don't get me wrong; DIII football in Michigan is still very good collegiate football and there are many very good players in high schools in Michigan that are not able to make it at the DIII level schools.  Competition is still good, and while we all know that, overall, most of the DIII players are a step too slow and/or a bit too small for DI level football, still there are those occasional players being (non) recruited by those latter schools who can indeed make it there.  It also depends on having the opportunity to be in the right place at the right time (i.e. the #'s game at one's position at a DI school as well as one's specific position).  Then there is also the fact that a few MIAA players have made it in the NFL for a short time.   

Anyway, we'll look forward to your additional contributions to discussions here on our board.  BTW, while you were at CMU, one of my high school best buddies played there, while I was playing at Hope.  Of course, CMU had that great championship year in 1974!  Speaking of them, will they pull another upset tomorrow against MSU like they did in the 1990's??      

Former3db,

Thanks for your reply. Although a Buckeye, MUC grad and player, I do follow
CMU little and look for MSU in the Big Ten standings. I think the game today CMU/MSU could be a good one.

I agree DIII in Michigan is not as strong as Ohio, but sac's comparison
shows overall that both states have areas of strength. In today's economy especially, competition for new students and players is all that moe difficult
and while Ohio has been tough economically, Michigan is worse. It is
much easier to attract the best athletes when the school is making news (MUC) vs. others compete in a tougher environment.

What I have seen lately is some of the smaller schools in Ohio are in the process of rebranding themselves in order to attract new and more students and athletes. That process takes planning and resources.

Hope the MIAA can poduce a playoff contender!

Former3db.

How about those Chips beating MSU, I am proud of my other Alma Mater!!!!!!!!!

[ADAWGISADAWG4LIFE]

70_dc_alum,

Im gonna assume that Adrian was in shotgun on the safety play?  I know thats their thing on every play and it can turn ugly when you get a bad snap.  I watched it in and out on the live feed online, kudos to Defiance on that.  I didnt catch the last two TD? Did Adrian still have the starting defense in? Either way I cant imagine that Adrians DC will be to happy with that ending.  Good rebound for Adrian, way to get on the board with a W, keep it rolling!

[ADAWGISADAWG4LIFE]

Am I reading the Adrian v Defiance stats right? Adrian had 10 sacks on the day?  Great effort!

[LetItRain]

I'm seeing some early scores:

Illinois Wesleyan beats Alma 43 - 7 (from IWU's website).
Adrian beats Defiance 31 - 16 (LiveStats).
Kalamazoo beats Rockford 44 - 9 (D3football.com)
Carthage beats Hope 26 - 19 (D3football.com)

Looks like Elmhurst beat Olivet, but I can't find the "final" yet.  I haven't found anything on Albion/Thiel. 

[70_dc_alum]

not sure on safety I was in the middle of discussing with ATT why there DSL was jacked up and I heard was fumbled snap and when I picked up the phone to look was a big pile in the endzone

Defiance played better in the second half not sure if both TD was against 2s or not

10 sacks would not suprise me Adrian dline was owning the oline

[formerd3db]

Raider 68:
Yes, that was exciting.  I had a feeling that CMU would pull the upset today, although most Mich State people were prediciting an MSU victory in the range of 34-10.  A great win for CMU.  Last week against Arizona, although they only lost by 19-6, the stats, however, showed that Arizona really smashed them.  Anyway, one of our player's dads who played at CMU was at the game today and was obviously elated at his alma mater's win - but was made bittersweet when Hope lost.

Also, Toledo beat Colorado last night at Toledo 54-38 quite impressively.  I was, however, disappointed that Toledo couldn't even fill their Glass Bowl - it was nowhere near full - pehaps half at the most and that was obviously on the home side.  Not sure of the Indiana-Western Mich final score; Kent State was blasted by Boston College I believe.  Anyway, the MAC is doing better in showings against the more major teams.  Parity, better coaching, improved players or a combination of all three?!!!

DAWG:
Congrats on your alma mater Adrian's win today, although not sure how to measure/assess that regarding Adrian's actual team strength as Defiance is just not a good team this year.  However, any win is great and we'll take those for our teams anytime. 


Let It Rain: 
Elmhurst beat Olivet 17-9 today as I recall.  Like you, without checking Albion/Tiel here on D3.com right now, I am not sure on that score.

Okay for the Hope rundown:  A very disappointing day.  Hope actually gave the game away.  They played better than I thought, however, same old mistakes of poor secondary play, a missed FG and extra point, not scoring from the Red Zone, and LB getting caught up inside on the endruns.  Some good sparks of offense with some great catches, however Frey at QB had an "off day" many overthrows and just plain missing his targets.  Carthage was a smaller sized team, but hit very, very hard.  Their QB (at 200 lbs) was a good runner and good arm, good recievers also.  Hope lost the game in the last 5-6 minutes, allowing Carthage to tie up the score at 19-19; then when having them pinned down around the goal line, allowed a 17 yard pass for first down, then a long bomb and Carthage goes into score to win it with 50 seconds left.  An INT in the waning seconds ended it for good.  In all, a  very disappointing loss which could have given Hope a big boost.  Decent Community Day crowd and a beautiful sunny day in the mid-high '70's after thick fog burned off by noon.

Seeing that Illinois Wesleyan beat Alma quite handily today, I guess with Hope only losing to them last week by 28-25 isn't all that bad.  However, as Head Coach Dean Kreps said after the game today to the team in the immediate post-game huddle, Hope needs to find ways to win games - they have to finish it and play all 60 minutes - instead of poor techniques and just plain failure to execute.  BTW, one unfortunate note:  our Sr. kicker/punter Hazecamp went down with a knee injury which could be season ending.  Hopefully not, although final results will be pending the next few days.  I/we wish him the best.

[altor]

Im gonna assume that Adrian was in shotgun on the safety play?  I know thats their thing on every play and it can turn ugly when you get a bad snap.  I watched it in and out on the live feed online, kudos to Defiance on that.  I didnt catch the last two TD? Did Adrian still have the starting defense in? Either way I cant imagine that Adrians DC will be to happy with that ending.  Good rebound for Adrian, way to get on the board with a W, keep it rolling!

Yes, Adrian was in the shotgun.  The snap was at his feet.  From my seat on the 50, it looked like the QB put his knee on the ground when he picked up the ball, but they didn't blow it dead until he was actually tackled.  Guess it doesn't matter.

I got the feeling the 2nd string D was in, but I can't tell you that for sure.  If I was an Adrian coach, I'd be more upset about the 12 penalties for 130 yards than the late scores.  In fact, a roughing the passer helped DC on the first TD drive and a fair catch interference and a horse-collar tackle moved DC down the field on the second drive.

[ADAWGISADAWG4LIFE]

Altor:

Yeah I heard the penalties were an issue.  Upon further review the second string defense played the whole 4th quarter so thats where the scores came in.  Penalties will be killers every time.

Adrian was in shotgun on the safety play, thats what they run out of 99% of the time on offense, I can probably count the number of under center plays in the last 3 years on one hand and if not one hand, than two.  It has been working for them though, as the offense has been putting up some serious numbers.  The running game at this point still troubles me as they dont seem to be having much success there.

formerd3db:

A win is a win and if nothing else it will build confidence and enthusiasm.  Defiance has been a down team it seems like for about 3 years now, they were very poor up front on offense, although Adrians DL from my experience can make many players look that way.  There feet seemed slow and that was reflected in the school record 10 sacks on the day. 
Looks like Hope played Carthage tough this year, I know last year they gave up a ton of points in that game.

[D306]

Sloopy game for the Brits.  Losing 20-10 at Thiel in their home opener.

No offense intended to Thiel but this is a game Albion should/could have won.

4 turnovers was the official record, numerous bad exchanges as the Brits continue to rotate QB's. Albion was down 13-0 right out of the gate first 2 possesions for Thiel.

2nd play of the game Albion lost a Senior DE to a ACL injury, and with 2 other starters on the DL out the Brits were very thin and very young on the line again.
The defense seemed to be more comfortable with the new alingment, after the initial adjustments and shock of losing another key starter to injury.

Shut Thiel down after the first quarter. The Brits trying to force a tunrover late got caught pinching the routes and gave up a long TD pass late in the 4th quarter.

Offense was inside the Thiel 30 numerous times, losing the ball to a bad snap leading to a funmble, a fumble after gaining a 1st down, and a missed FG all in the second half.

Looks like the offense was slowly getting thier rythem, with movement but inconsistent offense. Turnovers and the lack of capitalizing inside the Red Zone killed the comeback.

I expect the Brits will decide on a starting QB this week, and he will play the majority of the snaps in the last non-conference game. Albion heads into a BYE week after next weeks game, then starts the Conference schedule.  Albion needs the BYE week hopefully they return after the BYE with most of the early season injuries cleared up, 1st team all conference DL Captain is still not playing, starting DB out, returning 2nd team all conference RB has not seen the field yet, find out this week if DE is lost for the season.

I felt going into the season Albion was going to make some noise in the league. I still feel that way, hard to say after seeing the last 2 weeks. This weeks game proved they have the talent to win games, the sloopy play must improve the turnovers and bad exchanges have to end. Hopefully the injured players get back on the field. The lack of depth and youth of the team is showing, not enough depth to have solid playmakers behind the starters in key positions.

[wabco]

I have been reading your discussion concerning DIII football quality drop off in Michigan.  I can remember in the not too distant past Wabash and DePauw used to play back to back against Albion and Hope and get all they wanted.  From the present discussion, there appears to be fingers pointed toward cost of the MIAA liberal arts colleges as responsible for the change (drop) as well as the rise of Grand Valley and other D II schools ... going after the same gene pool. 

While I think there is truth that these factors are certainly ones to be confronted and they have a substantive " hand" in this, I don't think that is the core of the matter.   I believe the quality of Michigan football is and remains, in general, very good and Michigan footballers are in fact under recruited.  Wabash comes up here and recruits several kids each year from the state (both east and west sides) who go on to become good students and impact players. 

I think the problem is (external) one of recruiting area and also (internal) in acceptance of the "state of the union".  First the internal:  There was an article in the Grand Rapids Press about the time preseason practice started wherein a couple of coaches from MIAA schools in our GR Area were quoted as essentially saying they just were having trouble recruiting against D II etc. etc. etc. with the result they didn't have the quality teams other area D III schools had.  (Go dig out the GR Press Article.  I could not believe what I was reading.)  If I were a young stud athlete who can academically make it, this article would have sealed it for me AGAINST an MIAA choice. You have to really really believe in yourself and your product before others will.   No disrespect here ... rather respect toward example: Smith and his coaching and his talents in understanding his school and product and recruiting for Hope.

The second is external: If you look at the Wabash roster you will see a change from years ago.  While Indiana still furnishes the great majority of players, Calif, AZ, MI, Tx, Fla, Ohio, Ill. ... just to mention a few ... are all there.  We changed and enlarged our opportunity area.  (Opportunity for Wabash and opportunity for the students and families being recruited.)  We did not change our academic criteria or cost/scholarship/financial aid programs.  We did upgrade facilities and but largely ... we simply worked harder and ranged further.  We believed in ourselves and what the College had to offer and took Div II and NAIA head up.

From my perspective and experience with the Wabash football program, I really think successful Div III recruyiting requires a wider recruiting area.  There are lots of opportunities out there and youngsters (and their parents) are not always the brightest ones at understanding WHY you choose a Kalamazoo College or a Hope or an Albion ...  they often have trouble understanding that football is not the end but rather an important "add" to what College and future opportunity for their son is all about. 

I think you have to go out there and never apologise or find an excuse in a D II or whatever.  Take them head up ... sell your product.  The parents and students (and sadly the same is true of high school counselors) need to be educated and made "smart enough" to understand what your school IS offering them, the opportunities that WILL open up to them ... not smoke and mirrors but REALLY.  They will pick you and be glad they did and become your missionaries.

Your school's winning track record with academics and preparation for the future careers are a most important "weapon".  Cost, can usually come reasonably close.  They just need to really understand that if you want to ... example ... go to medical school  YOU CAN GET THERE if you work from (place name) your MIAA school ... AND we are going to have a vibrant and winning football program in Div III, even planning to defeat Mount Union or Wisc Whitewater in the not too distant future.

It was fun playiing Albion and Hope.  I regret we no longer (due to scheduling problems) do.

[70_dc_alum]

Wabco good post...I would agree the confidence level is not near what it was in the 90's in the MIAA (no not becuase Defiance left after the 99 season )

i would counter though there is a significant drop off in talent in MI.  but that is strictly in Detroit and reserved for Ford field and those pesky Lions!!! (thats bad considering I'm a Bengals Fan)

[Raider 68]

I have been reading your discussion concerning DIII football quality drop off in Michigan.  I can remember in the not too distant past Wabash and DePauw used to play back to back against Albion and Hope and get all they wanted.  From the present discussion, there appears to be fingers pointed toward cost of the MIAA liberal arts colleges as responsible for the change (drop) as well as the rise of Grand Valley and other D II schools ... going after the same gene pool. 

While I think there is truth that these factors are certainly ones to be confronted and they have a substantive " hand" in this, I don't think that is the core of the matter.   I believe the quality of Michigan football is and remains, in general, very good and Michigan footballers are in fact under recruited.  Wabash comes up here and recruits several kids each year from the state (both east and west sides) who go on to become good students and impact players. 

I think the problem is (external) one of recruiting area and also (internal) in acceptance of the "state of the union".  First the internal:  There was an article in the Grand Rapids Press about the time preseason practice started wherein a couple of coaches from MIAA schools in our GR Area were quoted as essentially saying they just were having trouble recruiting against D II etc. etc. etc. with the result they didn't have the quality teams other area D III schools had.  (Go dig out the GR Press Article.  I could not believe what I was reading.)  If I were a young stud athlete who can academically make it, this article would have sealed it for me AGAINST an MIAA choice. You have to really really believe in yourself and your product before others will.   No disrespect here ... rather respect toward example: Smith and his coaching and his talents in understanding his school and product and recruiting for Hope.

The second is external: If you look at the Wabash roster you will see a change from years ago.  While Indiana still furnishes the great majority of players, Calif, AZ, MI, Tx, Fla, Ohio, Ill. ... just to mention a few ... are all there.  We changed and enlarged our opportunity area.  (Opportunity for Wabash and opportunity for the students and families being recruited.)  We did not change our academic criteria or cost/scholarship/financial aid programs.  We did upgrade facilities and but largely ... we simply worked harder and ranged further.  We believed in ourselves and what the College had to offer and took Div II and NAIA head up.

From my perspective and experience with the Wabash football program, I really think successful Div III recruyiting requires a wider recruiting area.  There are lots of opportunities out there and youngsters (and their parents) are not always the brightest ones at understanding WHY you choose a Kalamazoo College or a Hope or an Albion ...  they often have trouble understanding that football is not the end but rather an important "add" to what College and future opportunity for their son is all about. 

I think you have to go out there and never apologise or find an excuse in a D II or whatever.  Take them head up ... sell your product.  The parents and students (and sadly the same is true of high school counselors) need to be educated and made "smart enough" to understand what your school IS offering them, the opportunities that WILL open up to them ... not smoke and mirrors but REALLY.  They will pick you and be glad they did and become your missionaries.

Your school's winning track record with academics and preparation for the future careers are a most important "weapon".  Cost, can usually come reasonably close.  They just need to really understand that if you want to ... example ... go to medical school  YOU CAN GET THERE if you work from (place name) your MIAA school ... AND we are going to have a vibrant and winning football program in Div III, even planning to defeat Mount Union or Wisc Whitewater in the not too distant future.

It was fun playiing Albion and Hope.  I regret we no longer (due to scheduling problems) do.

Wabco,

On the subject of geographic recruiting here is a brief summary of Mount Union's freshman class:

- Total freshman- 111
- Ohio 52%
- Florida 14%
- Penn. 6%
- New York 5 %
- Indiana 5%
- Michigan 5%

The other 11 states account for 19% of the class

[formerd3db]

wabaco:

Excellent post and I agree with the majority of what you said.  However, I will say this: the "DII factor" is a reality.  I have talked with many parents in recent years whose sons are in their college search and the lure of the athletic scholarship simply because of "that in name" and what it implies is there, even though DII scholarship limits are smaller and the actuall scholarship being not really a full ride.  Going to Hope, or Albion or Kazoo is a steep price compared to the DII schools (I will quailify this also by saying I mean no disrespect to the DII school education because students will get a good education there IF they apply themselves just like you say regardless of where they attend).  Unless a student-athlete qualifies for a substantial amount of finanicial aid need at a Hope or Kazoo, etc., many parents cannot simply afford that.  I know this from experiene because my wife and I just spent over $200,000 for two daughters to attend 4 full years at Hope (and while they both graduated cum laude with high grades, their academic scholarships were small compared to financial aid packages many other students quailify for in need and what they receive.  In this day and age, unfortunately, the cost is a major factor, regardless of how much a prosepective student-athlete may like a school and wish to participate in their particular football program.   Again, as I mentioned, most (although not all) of the DIII schools in other states bordering MI are $10,000-12,000 more in cost than most of the MIAA school.  I would chose (I'll use my own alma mater as an example) my Hope over the DII schools in a hearbeat for all the reasons you say and find a way for my kid to go.  However, there are many, many factors that come into such decisions as you know (aside from recruiting and selling your school), yet cost is an undeniable aspect and...the DII factor is not a myth per se.  I would also have to agree with the others that I think to some degree, the overall talent level in Michigan is down for some reason.

Thanks for your opinions on this - very valid and adds much to this discussion.  BTW, I agree with you in Hope not playing DePauw and Wabash.  Those were always great games, even when I played "way back when".

[wabco]

I apologise if my post of yesterday seemed to indicate I was referring only to Hope or Albion or Kalamazoo.  Those are simply the schools in the MIAA with whom I am most familiar.  I was trying to make the point that the school(s) in the MIAA can be stronger or weaker in football as is their college focus.  Examples from our (Wabash's) conference.  Colleges of Wooster, Wittenberg, Wabash, Allegheny place greater college resources upon their football than do ... say Kenyon or Hiram, or Oberlin or ... soon to be lost (some would say it has been lost for a while) Earlham.  (Denisen seems to be trying as to their football focus.)

What is true with the three "Ws" and Gheny ... is that these colleges provide a goodly number of coaching resources and coordination with their Admissions departments regarding recruiting football players.  They see the coaches as additional recruiting arms for the college admissions as a whole ... the college's quality requirements do not change ... there is simply an appreciation that a quadrant of the male gene pool which falls within the perameters of acceptance has - as one of its principle foci - enjoyment of quality football participation as a significant part of the college experience.  In this day of greater effort/competition to find, enroll, and hold quality males at the college level, a quality football program and collegial cooperation between Admissions and coaches (again ... not in any way sacrificing academic quality) is seen as avaluable additional tool and an advantage in accomplishing a good student body for these schools.

Schools such as Kenyon, Oberlin, and Earlham (to the extent I am qualified to speak for them) in their leadership policy do not see a quality football program as fitting their view of themselves and what they are about ... in fact an aspect of their leadership is probably negative toward the whole idea.  Example:  the Earlham President making a public statement that winning 50% of their sports games would be a good expectation.  Now ... with a statement such as that... Earlham has just probably turned away a segment of outstanding students who also hold playing football in a quality college enviornment.

So, looking at my own conference ...  college commitment in attitude and resources (without change of academic requirements or financial aid requirements) makes a huge difference and does pay back.  There simply has to be a conversion in approach:  it WILL result in better and more good qualified male students with greater retention (they like it here), a more vibrant general overall school enviornment (it is more fun ... they all like it here), trickle down to more alumni and friends participation and attendance AND resulting financial support, trickle down to more positive general overall recognition for the school (example:  when we played Hope, we always received some Grand Rapids Press attention which somewhere in the article referred to Wabash in a positive academic way.).

I firmly believe the college believing (KNOWING) internally the value to the school of a properly supported and coordinated football program and then externally providing the resources in coaches and Admissions coordination and coordination with the whole college ... will redound to very real benefit to the college and the students and will result in the success of the D III football program. 

The easy and quick road is to cut costs ... and football is a cost (if you ignore the "income" brought to the school in increased - or in today holding the line - students, alumni financial support - again increased or held, general overall recognition (never klnow what benefits that brings until it brings it). The harder road is to increase sales by deciding what sales you want (more qualified students, vibrant campus, increased alumni support, increased general recognition) and then focusing the resources to accomplish this.  Never sacrifice quality.  That is all you have.  Just do not take the easy road ... which is inevitably down hill.  I know I am singing to the choir.  But the choir can become the leaders in this effort.

[sac]

A small sampling of D2 roster sizes around Michigan

GVSU -- 124
Ferris State. -- 102
SVSU --134

D2 can give 67 scholarship (I think), some partials.........an awful lot of walkons at those schools would look good in the MIAA.

Tuition at GVSU is roughly 9,000 per year vs mid 30's for a large chunk of the MIAA.

.......Plus they have an indoor football building.