FB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[sac]

I apologise if my post of yesterday seemed to indicate I was referring only to Hope or Albion or Kalamazoo.  Those are simply the schools in the MIAA with whom I am most familiar.  I was trying to make the point that the school(s) in the MIAA can be stronger or weaker in football as is their college focus.  Examples from our (Wabash's) conference.  Colleges of Wooster, Wittenberg, Wabash, Allegheny place greater college resources upon their football than do ... say Kenyon or Hiram, or Oberlin or ... soon to be lost (some would say it has been lost for a while) Earlham.  (Denisen seems to be trying as to their football focus.)

What is true with the three "Ws" and Gheny ... is that these colleges provide a goodly number of coaching resources and coordination with their Admissions departments regarding recruiting football players.  They see the coaches as additional recruiting arms for the college admissions as a whole ... the college's quality requirements do not change ... there is simply an appreciation that a quadrant of the male gene pool which falls within the perameters of acceptance has - as one of its principle foci - enjoyment of quality football participation as a significant part of the college experience.  In this day of greater effort/competition to find, enroll, and hold quality males at the college level, a quality football program and collegial cooperation between Admissions and coaches (again ... not in any way sacrificing academic quality) is seen as avaluable additional tool and an advantage in accomplishing a good student body for these schools.

Schools such as Kenyon, Oberlin, and Earlham (to the extent I am qualified to speak for them) in their leadership policy do not see a quality football program as fitting their view of themselves and what they are about ... in fact an aspect of their leadership is probably negative toward the whole idea.  Example:  the Earlham President making a public statement that winning 50% of their sports games would be a good expectation.  Now ... with a statement such as that... Earlham has just probably turned away a segment of outstanding students who also hold playing football in a quality college enviornment.

So, looking at my own conference ...  college commitment in attitude and resources (without change of academic requirements or financial aid requirements) makes a huge difference and does pay back.  There simply has to be a conversion in approach:  it WILL result in better and more good qualified male students with greater retention (they like it here), a more vibrant general overall school enviornment (it is more fun ... they all like it here), trickle down to more alumni and friends participation and attendance AND resulting financial support, trickle down to more positive general overall recognition for the school (example:  when we played Hope, we always received some Grand Rapids Press attention which somewhere in the article referred to Wabash in a positive academic way.).

I firmly believe the college believing (KNOWING) internally the value to the school of a properly supported and coordinated football program and then externally providing the resources in coaches and Admissions coordination and coordination with the whole college ... will redound to very real benefit to the college and the students and will result in the success of the D III football program. 

The easy and quick road is to cut costs ... and football is a cost (if you ignore the "income" brought to the school in increased - or in today holding the line - students, alumni financial support - again increased or held, general overall recognition (never klnow what benefits that brings until it brings it). The harder road is to increase sales by deciding what sales you want (more qualified students, vibrant campus, increased alumni support, increased general recognition) and then focusing the resources to accomplish this.  Never sacrifice quality.  That is all you have.  Just do not take the easy road ... which is inevitably down hill.  I know I am singing to the choir.  But the choir can become the leaders in this effort.

Good post ~  its been my observation around the MIAA that there is a renewed focus among member schools to provide good/better facilities in athletics to support a more stable enrollment base.  Evidence is in the Millions spent to upgrade facilities at every instituition over the past decade, some significantly (see Adrian).

As far as strictly football, I've always felt and observed that all MIAA institutions, other than a few sad years at Kzoo, have always given their football programs ample chances to succeed.  With up years and down years.

When the NAIA football programs in this state went D2 in the late 80's early 90's, they immediately began drawing away players from the MIAA, and they'll continue to do so as long as the GLIAC remains one of D2's premier conferences.  Frankly the competition in that league is fierce.

In the 80's, GVSU was the smallest (or near smallest) state school in Michigan, way out in the cornfields of Allendale, with below average facilities nearly across the board and an academic reputation not nearly where it is today.  Today GVSU has nearly 25,000 students, and some of its degrees could seriously be on par or better than some MIAA programs.  This is where the tuition issue hits hardest now.

I know it sounds like I'm harping on the D2 issue, but its real and a difficult thing for MIAA coaching staffs to compete against in this state.

[BOYA87]

All of these arguments are extremely valid.  As a former DIII athlete, it was not too long ago that I faced the tough decision of whether to go DII or DIII, so I thought I might weigh in with some  of my thoughts

Never underestimate the appeal of an athletic scholarship to a high school senior.  What better way to attest to the quality of your high school coach, team, and school than to acquire a scholarship to continue your football career?  It's the ultimate achievement and the closest thing to getting paid to do what we all love, playing football (the ultimate goal being the NFL which many of us will never have the chance to achieve from DI DII and DIII)

DIII also faces the challenge of having to sell student athletes on so much more than football.  They must make students believe in the coach, the team, the education, and the student life!  THAT'S A HARD SELL!  Many DI and DII schools say "here's a scholarship, come play football for us" and that's all they preach on.  Those student athletes are getting money to PLAY FOOTBALL, not to BE A STUDENT.  This is extremely difficult to compete with.  They are fishing with dynamite and we are fishing with a stick and a string.  And I'm not referring to our bait as our facilities, because I feel like there are some DIII schools with absolutely amazing facilities for the size of the college or university.  But I am saying that DIII just doesn't have the bargaining power that DII and DI have. 

I had a chance to play DII football but decided to go DIII.  I wouldn't change that decision for anything.  I loved playing with people who were playing the sport simply because they loved the game.  They weren't doing it for money, they weren't doing it for their dad or their high school coach, they were doing it for themselves. 

I can't wait for another great weekend of games!  Go MIAA

[formerd3db]

 Nicely said, BOYA87.  BTW, welcome to the board.

[Raider 68]

All of these arguments are extremely valid.  As a former DIII athlete, it was not too long ago that I faced the tough decision of whether to go DII or DIII, so I thought I might weigh in with some  of my thoughts

Never underestimate the appeal of an athletic scholarship to a high school senior.  What better way to attest to the quality of your high school coach, team, and school than to acquire a scholarship to continue your football career?  It’s the ultimate achievement and the closest thing to getting paid to do what we all love, playing football (the ultimate goal being the NFL which many of us will never have the chance to achieve from DI DII and DIII)

DIII also faces the challenge of having to sell student athletes on so much more than football.  They must make students believe in the coach, the team, the education, and the student life!  THAT’S A HARD SELL!  Many DI and DII schools say “here’s a scholarship, come play football for us” and that’s all they preach on.  Those student athletes are getting money to PLAY FOOTBALL, not to BE A STUDENT.  This is extremely difficult to compete with.  They are fishing with dynamite and we are fishing with a stick and a string.  And I’m not referring to our bait as our facilities, because I feel like there are some DIII schools with absolutely amazing facilities for the size of the college or university.  But I am saying that DIII just doesn’t have the bargaining power that DII and DI have. 

I had a chance to play DII football but decided to go DIII.  I wouldn’t change that decision for anything.  I loved playing with people who were playing the sport simply because they loved the game.  They weren’t doing it for money, they weren’t doing it for their dad or their high school coach, they were doing it for themselves. 

I can’t wait for another great weekend of games!  Go MIAA

Nicely said, BOYA87.  BTW, welcome to the board.

BOYA87,

Many years ago I had a full ride to play for a D-1  School in Ohio
that is playing in Cleveland, OH this weekend. In the end I kinda
got screwed since my college test scores were lost and I had to retake
the tests later. By that time scholarship money was half of what it should have been. I told them to stick their offer and went to Mount Union.

Although Mount was a D3 school and not a great power back then, I
never regreated my decision. You chose wisely!!

[Raider 68]

All of these arguments are extremely valid.  As a former DIII athlete, it was not too long ago that I faced the tough decision of whether to go DII or DIII, so I thought I might weigh in with some  of my thoughts

Never underestimate the appeal of an athletic scholarship to a high school senior.  What better way to attest to the quality of your high school coach, team, and school than to acquire a scholarship to continue your football career?  It’s the ultimate achievement and the closest thing to getting paid to do what we all love, playing football (the ultimate goal being the NFL which many of us will never have the chance to achieve from DI DII and DIII)

DIII also faces the challenge of having to sell student athletes on so much more than football.  They must make students believe in the coach, the team, the education, and the student life!  THAT’S A HARD SELL!  Many DI and DII schools say “here’s a scholarship, come play football for us” and that’s all they preach on.  Those student athletes are getting money to PLAY FOOTBALL, not to BE A STUDENT.  This is extremely difficult to compete with.  They are fishing with dynamite and we are fishing with a stick and a string.  And I’m not referring to our bait as our facilities, because I feel like there are some DIII schools with absolutely amazing facilities for the size of the college or university.  But I am saying that DIII just doesn’t have the bargaining power that DII and DI have. 

I had a chance to play DII football but decided to go DIII.  I wouldn’t change that decision for anything.  I loved playing with people who were playing the sport simply because they loved the game.  They weren’t doing it for money, they weren’t doing it for their dad or their high school coach, they were doing it for themselves. 

I can’t wait for another great weekend of games!  Go MIAA

Nicely said, BOYA87.  BTW, welcome to the board.

BOYA87,

Many years ago I had a full ride to play for a D-1  School in Ohio
that is playing in Cleveland, OH this weekend. In the end I kinda
got screwed since my college test scores were lost and I had to retake
the tests later. By that time scholarship money was half of what it should have been. I told them to stick their offer and went to Mount Union.

Although Mount was a D3 school and not a great power back then, I
never regreated my decision. You chose wisely!!

Spell check  not working on Regretted, Sorry!

[Mr. Ypsi]

Tigers lose 9-2 today.  The pathetic Royals have won 6 of the last 7 games against Detroit.  (If they didn't feast on Tiger meat, they'd be the Nats!)

Jackson's slider is lately totally ineffective - a rest before the playoffs would have been nice.

Barring a Tiger sweep of the Twins this weekend, looks like the race will go to the wire after all.  If not for the Royals, the race would already be effectively over.

[4852lkrick]

My son plays tomorrow.....   lets talk MIAA 

Predictions?  Scouting reports?

[D306]

4852 my thoughts to your question

Looking at the non conference games for the MIAA:

After 2 weeks the MIAA looks to be improving, on a national basis.
I do not see any "powerhouse' MIAA team but I do see the level improving.
I believe accross the board the MIAA has improved, though the "high end" of the league has regressed.

It is early and the next couple weeks will tell us more.

Couple random thoughts/observations:

Kalamazoo is making quick strides to regaining a solid football team.
Kazoo can put up points, new staff will have the team ready to play and moving into the upper echelon of the MIAA within 2 years.

Trine continues its progress over the last few years, excited growing campus flush with money. The coaching staff is strong and the recruits are becoming more diverse. Trine will be tough this year, but not as strong as last, lost too much defensive talent, will reload and improve as the year progresses and as defensive  gets more playing time.

Olivet, was the improved play of recent years a "blip" last year was rough, were is the program going? I can not get a "read" on Olivet. Team always seems to have some speed and some great athletes but not much depth or consistent level of play.

Albion made big changes to the coaching style, new defense and a focus on "speed" will this pay off? The learning curve continues as from what I have seen so far the team is starting to understand, but the "mis-reads" result quickly in points against. The last few years the offense has been flat, this from a team that traditionally has put up points. The injury bug has been brutal this year and pre-season. I believe when healthy the Brits will contend the key is will they get healthy soon enough to make a run?

Adrian continues the strong defense, and improved non-conference games I believe prepares the team for "big games" latter in the league play. Program continues to be strong need the signature win to move them over the top, not let games get away.

Hope continues the tougher than anyone non conference games.
What does not kill you makes you tougher plan right.
Hope's program continues to be solid and well coached, if the pass defense improves the team will be near the top of the league again.
Hope is always in the mix, strong program strong Alum support and family retention leads to a stream of players every year.

Alma the Scot gun produces points, always has always will.  Defensive execution is key. I believe the location for Alma is what makes it tough to retain/gain interest for many people. Recruits do not travel to see the campus, if they did I believe it would change some opinions and help improve recruit level. The team is mainly local players which is great for moral and support but leads to the many flucuations in talent level. Tough to achieve consistant high level player every year.


4852  that is my not so educated overview of what I saw or have read so far regarding the MIAA...

Welcome to the league and I hope you enjoy your sons games, great schools and education.

As commented earlier making the choice to go DIII instead of DII by Raider and Boya
My son played DIII MIAA Football for the educational advantages after turning down preferred walkon status in the Big Ten and DII scholarships and he still believes it was the right choice these many years later.

Enjoy the games guys nice weekend weather ahead.

[BOYA87]

Trine has a home game this week and they always bring a little extra at home.  It was a struggle 2 weeks ago against Machester but coming off a bye week I expect to see vast improvements in many areas.

Some things I expect to see on Saturday:

QB:  Watt gaining comfort with his young recieving core and throwing the ball more confidently.  And of course continuing his MO of extending plays with his legs

WR:  Some young recievers in place for Trine but they already have 1 game under their belt so theres no such thing as a freshman anymore.  Paul Curtis will bring some much needed consistency and experience this week as he returns from injuries and should add a lot to the passing game.

Defense:  It was hard to tell if Manchesters line was that good or their QB that fast, but Trines D-line and linebackers struggled getting pressure.  This week will prove if they have worked out the kinks.  I expect to see speed after the ball at all times this week.  Less thinking on the defensive side and more running to the ball.

its between the 1st and 2nd week when you really see how much a team improves.  This week will prove a great test against Defiance as it seems they gave Adrian a decent game last week.  Trine will be choppin at the bit to play football after having 2 weeks off and I expect them to come out firing this week.

Go Thunder and Go MIAA

[4852lkrick]

Thanks D306 for the great insites!!  I have two boys - both All State Class A senior HS year - both county leaders in interceptions.  One went D2 for a year.  Red shirted - told 3 years before he'd see varsity play time - said kids who play don't talk to the ones that don't - said even after a full season he didn't think a coach knew his name.  Took the love of football out of him - also got injured and wasn't offered a scholarship back - had the talent, but only 5'8".  Still attends there - 4th year with a 3.2 gpa.  We figured life out quick with that.  He had alot to do with my second son going D3.  For the love of the game.  My second son started D3 as a freshman last year - tied university intercept record.  Tuition is twice that of the D2 college, but what he received in "scholarships" from D3 equaled that of the partial football scholarship we received for D2.  Those boys and coaches are out there for great reasons and receiving excellent educations.  I love Saturdays in the fall!

We we first went D2 we thought 130 man roster was crazy....  That was with the 67 partial scholarships.  Adrian's roster is at 194 this year?  Wow. 

[formerd3db]

Welcome to the board you two "new" guys (4852 and again BOYA87).  Some additional comments on the topic:

For sure, the larger roster numbers are amazing.  Mount Union often tops 200.  From a purely football standpoint (aside from the academic factors) I've always wondered why someone would want to go there with that many, be anywhere from 8th-11th string and wait 3 years before getting a chance to play (although some frosh and soph there have broken into the lineup quite often) when they could attend other colleges and have a better chance at playing time earlier.

When Adrian had 174 in recent years, that was almost overwhelming.  With the exception of Alma and sometimes Olivet, the MIAA schools have been well over a 100 routinely in recent years (Hope and Albion ranging from the 140's to the 160's at times).  When I played "way back when" at Hope, we had about 110, but that usually waned down to around 90 after a couple of weeks.  Some conferences limit their rosters to 100 in efforts to contain costs.  Of course, traveling squad numbers are limited as are NCAA playoff rosters, so with high rosters numbers that is a tough situation for some players to face.  On the other hand, the establishment of the J.V. programs for these schools has helped tremendously in that regard in allowing some development for the underclassmen.  During my college coaching stint, I always (and still do) encouraged the younger players to use that as the opportunity to showcase their talent and be ready because that many times can earn someone a spot on the traveling squad when unfortunate injuries occur to others.  So it is important.

While everyone obviously prefers to be on the Varsity roster full time, sometimes one just has to wait their turn as it can be a #'s game and often one has to be in the "right spot at the right time".  Regardless, it is a great experience and for those who stick it out, can provide memories for a lifetime.

As far as Hope, we'll have another tough contest tomorrow against non-conf Wis-Eau Claire.  Pass defense needs to be sharper than last week and our offense capitalize on their opportunities when driving the ball...or we're in trouble again.  Anyway, good luck to your sons and teams tomorrow everyone and drive safely. 

[BOYA87]

Thanks d3db!

I agree with the #'s on the roster.  It is almost rediculous!  In my experience we had incoming freshman classes pushing 80 players.  It was difficult to get through camp even with that many young guys because the older players were ready to go and build on last years knowledge where as the freshman were starting from square one.  I have a ton of respect for coaching staffs who take on that challenge year in and year out. 

also concerning the mass amounts of freshman, I feel like there are many talented freshman that come into DIII programs expecting to be the go to guy, or the #1 man just like they were in high school.  I think its a pretty big shock to these guys when they report to camp and realize they are number 2, 3 or even deeper on the depth chart.

The great thing about all these numbers is that it says a lot about all of the schools and programs.  its pretty amazing that these MIAA schools with somewhere between 1000 and 3000 students can have almost 200 of them be football players!  It means kids want to attend these schools and they want to be a part of these programs.

But I hope the MIAA doesnt only keep growing in numbers, I hope they continue to grow in quality.  When I played there wasnt a single game that I overlooked even when schools were having down years like Kzoo and Albion of recent.  But I think these guys and the rest of the MIAA are growing and becoming more and more competitive which should keep making the championship chase more and more interesting.  I look forward to watching the MIAA battle every week because I really feel like each weeks games are going to be hard fought wins for everyone

[RFMichigan]

Great topics today. And welcome BOYA87 and 4852lkrick!

I hope to get to Olivet on Saturday and see if CUC can improve on last year's performance.  I think last year's Olivet thumping showed how whole conferences are just totally different, especially the physical nature of play. 

This whole "huge numbers on the roster" thing is mind-boggling to me as well. On the one hand I am just plain surprised that freshman wouldn't get shellshocked (and maybe even shy away from going out) by the shear numbers alone when they get to camp in the late summer. But then again they're freshman who probably were pretty good in high school and figure that there will probably be playing time for them in their first year. (They just don't know any better!)

One thing I would love to know is the turnover rates of players at different schools. Of those 60+ freshman that most MIAA schools are bringing in, how many do not go out for football their sophomore year? And how many aren't even in the school after their freshman year? Are there some general rule of thumb percentages? Outside of checking individual rosters from year to year, could someone fill me in on this?

On the other side of this coin, I think the #1 thing that keeps "marginal" players in a program after their freshman year, beyond "the love of the game", beyond "the hope of playing by their junior or senior year", beyond the friends made, is simply the coach. My daughter has a friend who wasn't even a starter in high school but went out for football as a freshman because he and his family were impressed by the coach. And then when he didn't play much his freshman year, he still went out his sophomore year. Why? The coach is just a great person and leader.

Good health to all this weekend.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Last week we had 9 entrants on MIAA pickems.  Only 7 picks so far this week (and new entrants are welcome).  Be sure to get picks made by 11 am tomorrow.

[formerd3db]

Last week we had 9 entrants on MIAA pickems.  Only 7 picks so far this week (and new entrants are welcome).  Be sure to get picks made by 11 am tomorrow.

Okay Mr. Ypsi, here are my picks for today:



Adrian @ Bluffton -  Adrian

Kalamazoo @ Manchester - Kazoo

Concordia (IL) @ Olivet (MI) - Olivet

Defiance @ Trine - Trine

Alma @ Rockford - Alma

UW-Eau Claire @ Hope - Hope

Millikin @ Albion - Albion