FB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Joe Wally]

Interesting article in the Calvin student paper (and some discussion on the men's basketball board) about whether or not Calvin should have a football team:

http://clubs.calvin.edu/chimes/article.php?id=12599

Interesting to see how this plays out at Calvin.  In addition to the moral dilemna that appears to play a part in this for Calvin, as well as the economic challenge that all of our D-3 institutions face, there is the medical dilemna of concussions and "sub-concusive trauma."  Do you want to expose your student athletes to that risk?  Do you want to expose your institution to the liability?

On the moral issue, I find it hard to believe that football generates an immoral culture, and to the extent that it does, that it generates any more of an immoral culture than any of the other sports currently being played at Calvin.

I do have some Calvin grads living in my area, I'll need to pick their brains on this one.

That said, I suppose I need to work.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Interesting to see how this plays out at Calvin.  In addition to the moral dilemna that appears to play a part in this for Calvin, as well as the economic challenge that all of our D-3 institutions face, there is the medical dilemna of concussions and "sub-concusive trauma."  Do you want to expose your student athletes to that risk?  Do you want to expose your institution to the liability?
That said, I suppose I need to work.

While the possibility of injuries and "sub-concusive trauma" have to be considered, Calvin already has a well established club hockey team.  Seems to me if you're OK with that from an injury standpoint, football should be OK as well.

[ThunderHead]

I'm not sure Calvin has the fan base for football, like the writer suggests. While I'm sure there are a few very loyal supporters and very football friendly people within the Calvin family, I don't see them doing anything better then Hope does attendance wise for football. And I don't think the Calvin/Hope game would be a big draw, especially at first, with Calvin being not real good, and Hope being only slightly better. 

What makes it work so well in hoops is that you have two established and successful programs facing each other. And the games are played during the winter, when lets face it, there isn't a lot to do. I'm not saying that their attendance is due to the lack of interesting things going on, I'm just saying that putting it in the fall on a beautiful fall weekend in West Michigan isn't going to be on the top of to many people's list.

Most football fans are headed to East Lansing or AA, and they have GVSU at night. I think one big reason Trine draws well is because outside of the 29-1 mark, Angola doesn't offer what Holland/Grand Rapids does on the weekends. It's a community event because it literally is the community team. 

As far as the President Cup - congrats to Hope. Well done. We finished dead last, hopefully with time that will improve, although to be honest, I only specifically care that we remain on top in football. That's really the only sport I follow at Trine.

Go Trine!!!

[KnightSlappy]

I dunno. I think the first ever Calvin-Hope football game would be a hot ticket.

I've never followed d3 football one lick, does Hope not draw very well?

[sac]

I'm not sure Calvin has the fan base for football, like the writer suggests. While I'm sure there are a few very loyal supporters and very football friendly people within the Calvin family, I don't see them doing anything better then Hope does attendance wise for football. And I don't think the Calvin/Hope game would be a big draw, especially at first, with Calvin being not real good, and Hope being only slightly better. 

It will never happen but I think you're way wrong here.  I think you are underestimating what competition between Hope and Calvin means to these two schools, its alumni and fans.

I have little doubt that an annual Hope/Calvin football game would draw well consistently.  An inaugural game played in the right location would probably set a record that neither school could break again.

2700 showed up in Holland this past fall for the Calvin soccer game, 1600 in GR.  These two games eclipsed anything anyone else in the MIAA had by about a factor of 10.

[ThunderHead]

Well - Maybe I'm wrong about the Hope V Calvin situation. (as my wife can attest, I'm wrong about most things... ) It's not that I don't appreciate the Hope vs Calvin match-up and rivalry. I just don't see it as a game that draws thousand and thousands after the first meeting. Or maybe it does - who knows. I guess it doesn't matter as this is a mute point.

And no, I don't believe Hope draws well for football as of late, then again they haven't been very good, so maybe back when they were competing for conference championships things were different. FormerD3er could probably give better insight here. I know that at Trine, when we were Tri-States, football didn't draw worth a lick. Winning helps, it's the cure all.

GO Trine!!!

PS SAC - I don't care to watch soccer, beating everyone by 10 fold in MIAA soccer probably meant you had 300 people show up.  I'm guessing that outside of Indiana University, that Calvin vs Hope game probably beat everyone in the Big Ten by 10 fold too.

[sac]

I dunno. I think the first ever Calvin-Hope football game would be a hot ticket.

I've never followed d3 football one lick, does Hope not draw very well?

Hope avg'd 2335, and I think this was probably a down year attendance wise.

Adrian 2120
Alma 1417
Albion 1858
Kzoo 1148
Olivet 611
Trine 4784

The MIAA was 12th as a conference, you needed 3,000 to be ranked among the top 20.  Trine was 8th Nationally

[ThunderHead]

I went to the Hope VS Trine game last year, and 2000 would be a pretty favorable number IMO. Hopefully that improves this season.

Go Trine!!!

[sac]

PS SAC - I don't care to watch soccer, beating everyone by 10 fold in MIAA soccer probably meant you had 300 people show up.  I'm guessing that outside of Indiana University, that Calvin vs Hope game probably beat everyone in the Big Ten by 10 fold too.

5 Big Ten teams had a higher avg attendance than Hope in soccer.  Indiana, Michigan, Penn State, Ohio State, Michigan State.  Northwestern and Wisconsin were just under Hope's per game avg by a couple hundred........all well above the 10 fold threshold.

There are only 7 men's soccer teams in the Big 10

I went to the Hope VS Trine game last year, and 2000 would be a pretty favorable number IMO. I'm not saying that's wrong, I'm just saying it didn't feel like 2500. Maybe it's the way the stadium is set up.

Go Trine!!!

Attendance is listed at 3550

http://miaa.org/fb/stats/10/1023hotr.htm

[sac]

I've never followed d3 football one lick, does Hope not draw very well?

Hope's avg this past season was its third lowest since they started playing at Holland Municipal Stadium.

Hope at Holland Municipal Stadium
Alltime thru 2010 season: 85-55-3
Year         Dates         Total         Average         W-L-T
1979         5         18,854         3,770         4-0-1
1980         4         15,317         3,830         2-2-0
1981         5         18,623         3,725         3-2-0
1982         4         16,281         4,070         4-0-0
1983         4         14,677         3,669         4-0-0
1984         5         18,133         3,627         5-0-0
1985         4         12,897         3,225         2-1-1
1986         5         16,435         3,287         3-2-0
1987         5         15,403         3,081         4-1-0
1988         4         12,231         3,058         1-3-0
1989         4         11,620         2,905         3-1-0
1990         5         15,904         3,181         3-1-1
1991         4         12,472         3,118         2-2-0
1992         5         12,424         2,485         3-2-0
1993         4         11,436         2,859         1-3-0
1994         4         11,283         2,821         2-2-0
1995         6         14,793         2,466         2-4-0
1996         4         12,200         3,050         1-3-0
1997         5         20,742         4,148         3-2-0
1998         4         12,259         3,065         2-2-0
1999         5         14,075         2,815         3-2-0
2000         5         20,175         4,035         3-2-0
2001         5         17,330         3,466         5-0-0
2002         5         16,945         3,389         3-2-0
2003         4         13,302         3,325         4-0-0
2004         5         16,547         3,309         3-2-0
2005         5         10,660         2,132         4-1-0
2006         5         11,051         2,210         4-1-0
2007         5         18,847         3,769         2-3-0
2008         5         14,630         2,926         2-3-0
2009         5         13,061         2,612         2-3-0
2010         5         11,675         2,335         2-3-0

[ThunderHead]

SAC - I don't care what was recorded there is no way there were 3500 people at that game. Unless maybe they are counting tickets sold, and people just didn't show up.

Nice facts on soccer - again though, not a sport I follow.

Go Trine!!!

[Uncle Rico]

I went to the Hope VS Trine game last year, and 2000 would be a pretty favorable number IMO. Hopefully that improves this season.

Go Trine!!!

I was at the game last year as well.  I believe it was Hope's homecoming.  I thought it was a pretty good size crowd from what I remember, and we (Trine) also travel fairly well, adding to those numbers.  I have to believe it was much more than 2000.

[ThunderHead]

So I was doing a little skimming a visited some fans sites for St. Johns University and the University of St Thomas. WOW - really cool programs, and GREAT fan support.

Anyone been to any of those places for Saturday football?

Go Trine!!!

[Uncle Rico]

So I was doing a little skimming a visited some fans sites for St. Johns University and the University of St Thomas. WOW - really cool programs, and GREAT fan support.

Anyone been to any of those places for Saturday football?

Go Trine!!!

It would be pretty cool to see a crowd that large for a D3 game.  As big as Whitewater's stadium is, I was a little disappointed at the crowd size there when Trine played them.  I thought it would be much larger based on how large their school enrollment is. 

I also enjoy the addition of the band at Trine.  It does help add to the game day experience, and should help attendance as well, with all the band parents.  The band gets better every year and it is nice to be able to offer students extra activities.

[hopewatcher]

Greetings to all....I've been 'lurking' on this board for the last couple of years and wanted to thank all of the regular posters for their insightful comments........I've really enjoyed it......My son was a freshman player at Hope this past year, and it has been a year of learning and understanding Division III football.....so before I said too much (and said something toooo stupid), I wanted to have a little better idea of what was going on (so I only say things less stupid ).......

But, the conversation about Hope vs Calvin in football finally got the best of me......I had an opportunity to read the article from the Calvin newspaper and I think that there are a number of faults in the writers logic....for more similar discussion, here is one regarding Nebraska-Omaha's decision to drop football and wrestling (after 3 consecutive DII National Championsips) in their move to D I. (sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=6488960).....the net out is that this is a really complicated decision.....politically and financially, and any 'quick' look will certainly have fault.....

Also...I'm pretty sure that the 'draw' to such a game would be quite high....given their close promimity and competitive rivalry, I'm sure it would be the high attendance game for both schools.....This years Trine game did not have as high of attendance as any Hope fan would have wanted to see (especially given the fact that a Hope win would have changed the entire face of the league race), however and  unfortunately, some on campus student homecoming events were scheduled for the same time as the game, which probably affected student attendance....I don't know why that was the case, but I'm sure it affected the crowd....