FB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[ziggy]

Moreover, with this ever increasing body of medical data that is tending to substantiate the position that football as it is currently played is a dangerous activity, does an institution that sponsors that activity expose itself to broader liability beyond solely the medical injuries?

If the answer is yes (hell, if the answer is maybe), is that a risk that the institution wants to take?

Since the risk is due to repeated blows to the head, many of which can not be pinpointed to an exact instance, is the liability to be shared in proportion to the amount of football played at an institution? A player at the DIII level has likely played at least four years of high school prior to arriving on a college campus. Should the institution bear the full liability just because that is likely the player's last stop in his football career?

Tough questions rarely have straight-forward solutions.

[Pat Coleman]

So I was doing a little skimming a visited some fans sites for St. Johns University and the University of St Thomas. WOW - really cool programs, and GREAT fan support.

Anyone been to any of those places for Saturday football?

Go Trine!!!

St. John's in particular has a great setup and atmosphere, stadium blends into a natural bowl. Fan support is fantastic.

[Pat Coleman]

BTW, congrats to the MIAA participants who will undoubtedly pass the Heartland board in total posts this evening - a hearty "well done."   

Not to rain on a parade here, but the HCAC board mysteriously went away in 2006, losing many pages of posts.

[formerd3db]

Pat:
I agree with you.  I have not been to a St. Johns game, however, have seen the photos of those from your site here and also have been enlightened about this by our good friend and poster here Johnny Red.  Indeed, at fantastic atmosphere.  We at Hope can only get a "glimpse" of that when we have crowds of >4,000+!

[formerd3db]

Joe Wally and ziggy:

I am not intending this as being confrontational at all.  Rather, I would like to relate a few comments regarding your posts, if I may.  First, the institutions do not cover the medical costs of a player's injury, at least almost all the the DIII, DII schools that I know of, and for that matter, many of the DI schools do not do this either, including Michigan State University.  I'm sure there are some of the other "big-time" schools that might, although, I do not know specifically to name those that might.  When a player is injured, his medical costs have to go through their his/her parents own medical insurance - this disclaimer, in written form, is given to all student-athletes and their parents even before the time of their sports physicals for the year.  I do know that in some special circumstances, if a players family has no insurance, then the school may assist in covering those costs - however, that is not the "norm".  In addition, most institutions will usually cover up to 20% of, for example, a knee brace or some other such equipment i.e. the remainder of whatever a player's family insurance doesn't cover, you know, the old 80%-20% insurance plans.

As far as legal liability, all schools have catastrophic insurance polies to cover injuries (such as paralysis from cervical/spinal cord injuries) - you have to have such policies in order to sponsor sports), but again, that is not applied to cover a player's injury.  In addition, I would have to disagree with you ziggy regarding any shared liability on the part of the school to players regarding concussions/head injuries.  This is a known inherent risk simply from the fact that it is a contact sport with the potential for such injury and one that anyone who chooses to particpate in does so at their own risk i.e. "implied known consent"   Thus, if one is not willing to take/assume the risk, they should not participate.

And finally, while repeated blows to the head are, indeed, the etiology of known long-term sequelae that occurs, the evidence also shows that this can occur with even one concussion.  Doesn't mean it will, however, again the risk is there. Thanks for a great discussion you guys; this is interesting and certainly relevent to our boards for sure.  

[formerd3db]

cave2:

I assume you escaped the sequelae of rugby hits.  Otherwise, you would not be able to post such astute commentary on these boards!   You are a lucky man!   Anyway, I hope all is well with you and your wife.

[Joe Wally]

The universities don't pay when a kid gets hurt on the field.  That is truly shocking to me.

[formerd3db]

The universities don't pay when a kid gets hurt on the field.  That is truly shocking to me.

It is the way it has been "forever".  If you and I think the economic aspects are tough now for any school (and, of course, that situation without question exists ) - it would be truly impossible to afford it if they did.  The athletes are already getting free medical care via the athletic trainers and team physicians who staff the sports medicine/athletic training departments for a school (and those people don't get paid very much, if they get paid at all; and they also have to cover their own liability costs beyond what the school has).  However, an additional tangential aspect to this is that to pay for every injury that required more beyond that (i.e. the training room), would, among other things, drive up tuition for all students even more, at the very least.

[cave2bens]

BTW, congrats to the MIAA participants who will undoubtedly pass the Heartland board in total posts this evening - a hearty "well done."   

Not to rain on a parade here, but the HCAC board mysteriously went away in 2006, losing many pages of posts.

Very true, Pat, and as a participant on that board I can't believe I'd forgotten - perhaps something to that post-trauma, concussion thread. 

Agree with your prognosis, former d3, but "astute" or perhaps more appropriately, "arse-toot?"  Been very lucky head injuries have been limited to multiple nose fractures, and a few cuts - injuries to the major appendages (arms and legs, thank you very much  ) are another matter.    Thanks for your inquiry, and we're both still surviving our experience.

The US Rugby Football Union, as well as all local area unions (LAUs) require proof of insurance for players, regardless of age group, and participation is prohibited without a "CIPP" on file.  Risk is responsibility of the player, though some donor-sponsored funds have been raised on individual basis when needed for injuries deemed life-altering.  The maintenance of this type of program on scale covered by NCAA oversight would be nearly impossible - cost, individual acceptance of risk-consequence, and then toss in potential changes and treatment regimens, courtesy of legislative short-sightedness.   

Again, apologies for tangential meanderings away from gridiron.         

[Raider 68]

cave2bens,

I cannot sleep, why are you up, it is the time zone? +k

[cave2bens]

cave2bens,

I cannot sleep, why are you up, it is the time zone? +k

Goeiemiddag, Raider;

We're six hours ahead of US EDT in Botswana and Suid Afrika - explains the perceived insomnia, eh? 

In Bloemfontein to watch today's top-ranked, ZA school's match between Afflies and Grey's College before tomorrow night's Cheetahs-Crusaders matchup in the Super 15.  Hope you're back sawin' logs. 

Cheers!

 

[sflzman]

Here's something that I believe was missed in the Calvin Football conversation....

Calvin currently has 9 mens and 9 womens teams, so that would mean another womens team needed to be added. Lacrosse? Then mens lacrosse stays at club status? Not really fair i'd think.

So what other sport? I know Alma added womens bowling to get wrestling.....

[KnightSlappy]

Here's something that I believe was missed in the Calvin Football conversation....

Calvin currently has 9 mens and 9 womens teams, so that would mean another womens team needed to be added. Lacrosse? Then mens lacrosse stays at club status? Not really fair i'd think.

So what other sport? I know Alma added womens bowling to get wrestling.....

Calvin only has 8 men's teams.

Volleyball is the outlier (with no men's counterpart).

[ziggy]

Joe Wally and ziggy:

As far as legal liability, all schools have catastrophic insurance polies to cover injuries (such as paralysis from cervical/spinal cord injuries) - you have to have such policies in order to sponsor sports), but again, that is not applied to cover a player's injury.  In addition, I would have to disagree with you ziggy regarding any shared liability on the part of the school to players regarding concussions/head injuries.  This is a known inherent risk simply from the fact that it is a contact sport with the potential for such injury and one that anyone who chooses to particpate in does so at their own risk i.e. "implied known consent"   Thus, if one is not willing to take/assume the risk, they should not participate.

And finally, while repeated blows to the head are, indeed, the etiology of known long-term sequelae that occurs, the evidence also shows that this can occur with even one concussion.  Doesn't mean it will, however, again the risk is there. Thanks for a great discussion you guys; this is interesting and certainly relevent to our boards for sure.  

I did not mean to advance any particular belief, only to raise additional questions if one were to begin with the basis that institutions should somehow be held liable for the ultimate results of concussion(s).

Personally, I would fall on the side of "inherent risk"

[ThunderHead]

All this talk about concussions - hot topic I guess. 

Well - here we go, temps getting higher, the grass is starting to get that "summer look" and the cold weather gear is officially put away.

Fellas - we're getting closer day by day - can't wait. Hope everyone has an enjoyable weekend.

Go Trine!!!