FB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[BOYA87]

haha I love all the #'s flying around!  Good stat work guys!

[formerd3db]

Western draws below 20,000 (in the 15-20 range) for every home game except Central Michigan.  They have dwindling attendance as the weather turns colder and drew just over 8,000 for their last game which brought the avg for the season under 15,000.    The CMU game will almost always be near or close to a full house.


Western's 6 homes last year drew 85,530 total........25,000 less than the expected attendance for their first game this year in Ann Arbor.

All of which is another reason why they and the rest of the MAC should really be FCS teams (formerly D-IAA teams) instead of at the FBS level.

[ThunderHead]

FormerD3er,

I can see your point on the FCS deal, but most MAC programs do have facilities, money, student and alumni support (when good) that far out way their typical FCS counter parts. (there are a few exceptions)

Then again, most guys out east would far rather play for an FCS program out their then a MAC program over here.

Still - I think as a whole, they are where they need to be. It's tough for MAC schools to compete with ever developing Big Brother programs in Michigan.

I've worked at a few FCS schools, and even the weakest MAC school has a higher level of football priority then most FCS programs. (again, minus a few)

Anyway, just my two cents. Go Trine!!!

[TUAngola]

I have sort of a poll question to my fellow MIAA posters.  With the continued upgrade to most of the member school football fields/stadiums, how would you rate the facilities of the member schools 1-7?  Factor in such things as seating, press box, playing surface, locker rooms, scoreboard/videoboard, concessions, parking, etc.  How is the game day atmosphere (tailgating, fan support) at other member schools?  I have some free Saturdays this fall and want to do at least one road trip to one of Trine's games (my work schedule has played havoc with my football Saturdays in the past ).  I beleive their conference road games this year are at Alma, Olivet and Albion.  Your input would be much appreciated. 

On a side note, does anyone have any links to preseason Div III football polls?  MIAA polls? I haven't come across any yet.  Is it too early?  Getting antsy for football!!

[sflzman]

Based on pure facilities it probably ranks
Trine
Alma
Adrian
Albion
Olivet
Kalamazoo
Hope

But I couldn't really tell you about atmosphere for football games, because though I've been to all the facilities I haven't seen a football game at anywhere besides Alma and Albion.....

[BOYA87]

as for facilities I would go

Trine-great surface, lights, VIP areas, locker rooms, weight facilities, new viewboard coming this year
Adrian-great surface (dont like all the other lines on it for soccer, lax, ect) great stadium and press box too
Alma/Albion-will have to wait and see the finished product
Olivet-nice surface, sub par visitors locker rooms but I am not sure what the rest of the facility has to offer
Kalamazoo- although the new plans look great and woul bump them maybe to #2 once i see the finished product.
and finally Hope- no explenation necessary!

Trine and Adrian seem to have the best consistent atmosphere for their games.  Great student, parent and community support it seems like.  I was always impressed with Alma and Albions fans as well.  Probably the worst follow and atmosphere I would think is Kalamazoo but everyone wants to follow winners and that just hasnt been the case for them of recent years.

[formerd3db]

ThunderHead:

Good analysis and I know what you mean about a great number of the FCS programs.  Some are, well, in all honesty...quite "crummy".  I understand what you are saying about the MAC, and particularly since you have been involved in DI level football (I, too, have followed many of those type of programs with interest (including from a historical standpoint).  Yet, while some of the MAC programs have great stadiums and actually good programs (and some, decent attendance like Central Michigan and Toledo), overall, they will never reach the level of the "major" programs, regardless of if they continue to play such programs for their non-conference games.  Sure, occasionally, they will beat a major program such as a Big Ten team (like CMU did when they beat MSU in recent years and back in the early 1990's; also when Toledo has recently beaten Purdue a couple of times).  However, overall, they will not reach that level.

So, that is where I'm coming from in regards to that standpoint i.e. there are FBS programs that really should remain "Mid-Major", the others are what I rate as the "Top Tier" i.e. the really major programs; and then I personally would add a third sub-level for those "not so good" FCS programs that you are talking about.  Of course, that type of rating division that I would have will never come to be.  Nonetheless, for practical purposes, that is how I see it in reality.  One last aspect; I am not saying the MAC programs are not good because, overall, they would kick the tar out of the best DII, DI-AA (I mean lower FCS) and even the best DIII team (except perhaps Mount Union's and Wis-Whitewater's best teams ever ).  However, I just don't rate them in the same category as say the major DI conference teams.  Now Cincinnati is a different "animal".  While they have attendance like the top MAC teams, they have purposely over the last 2 1/2 decades built their program to be a very major one (obviously, at the start of that process, it was very difficult, yet from a "pathway" standpoint viable because of being an Independent back then.

Anyway, that is my own $0.02 worth!  

[ThunderHead]

formerd3db,

Regarding MAC schools never being big D1 level programs, well I would agree there, but mainly due to do their location compared to big D1 programs.

Take the WAC for example, those programs are similar to MAC programs in many ways, yet they are seen in a better light due to their distance from Big programs. Utah, Boise State, and Fresno State are a few examples of schools that have made the most of their demographic location. They have an advantage over EMU, WMU, CMU, Miami of Ohio - ect, who are all stuck in the thick of the Big Ten region.

This all said, I don't think the MAC will ever "compete" with the B1G for obvious reasons. However I don't think they fit in the FCS either. I think they are legitimate D1 programs, that if over looked, can always give their B1G counterparts a run for their money.

And while some FCS schools can definitely play spoiler (App State v Michigan), 98% of the FCS schools can get over looked and will still lose to Big programs, unlike MAC programs.

I think it comes down to the schools involvement in the sport, and their commitment to back up a program fiscally.  WMU, CMU, Toledo, Miami of Ohio, ect - have no problem spending the money that most FCS schools simply would never approve under their budget.

I don't think you can place programs at the D1 level based on a programs performance on the field, otherwise you open up an entirely different can of worms that would call for considerable evaluation and re-evaluation.

If I could change anything in college football, it would be how D3 football is handled scholarship wise, but that's a completely different topic for another day.

Go Trine!!!

[formerd3db]

BOYA87, sflzman and TUAngola:

Good points about and ratings of the stadiums/facilities.  The only difference in opinion I have with you might be on a couple of minor aspects:  

I think Trine and Adrian have the best stadiums as far as design, with Albion being a very close second because of its "old historical" setting.  As I've mentioned before, Albion's pressbox is horrible and I hope that was one of the aspects being improved along with the new synthetic turf being installed.

Hope and Kalamazoo are kind of "tied right" now, IMO.  Kazoo's pressbox is horribly outdated (from the 1930's), yet the "bowl" atmospshere of Angell Field is great and the natural turf has been good (actually tremendously better than Hope's).  Despite poor attendance at Kazoo, nonetheless, they do have a huge, fantastic "Tailgate" atmosphere from the parents of the players and, on rare occasions, had some huge crowds - I've mentioned the latter before, but about 4-5 years ago, they had over 4,000 in attendance for their Homecoming game against Hope - and that was a great sight to see.  Hope's facilities have been discussed here extensively, but the drawback aside from the field conditions is the visitors lockerooms (and for that matter, its own since the players have to walk a distance from the latter to get to the stadium).  The press box is very spacious and Hope's overall atmosphere is great because the community supports it so well, including for attendance.  All that being said, if and once Kazoo's new stadium and turf gets completed, I think that will vault them ahead of Hope as far as facilities, unless Hope makes the improvements/upgrades that we've all been discussing.

Alma's new turf and scoreboard will definitely be a huge plus and as sflzman knows, they do have a decent fan attendance/following and support of the community.  A few drawbacks in regards to the pressbox and stadium steps, but that is minor.

Olivet's stadium has been a very major improvement.  I don't think the visitor's locker rooms are that bad (at least not as compared to Kazoo's and Hope's) and besides, they are right at the endzone, so an easy job onto the field.  Olivet has suffered from poor records obviously the past couple of years and that has hurt their attendance tremendously.  But overall, their stadium is nice for a facility its size and is on a very historic location as it has been for over a 120+ years.

Speaking of stadiums, on my recent vacation trip, I stopped by Grinnell College in Iowa and their stadium, while smaller, is fantastic.  It is a true "bowl stadium" type atmosphere, with permanent seating built into a hill on the visitors side/pine trees surrounding on 3 sides, the visitors side has the huge athletic complex/center walls the entire length giving it that "bowl" feel.  One endzone, as mentioned is a hill with pine trees; the other is a very nice bricked/concrete concourse between the two athletic buildings (similar to Eastern Michigan's stadium) where you can stand overlooking the field/stadium and watch the game.  I really like it along with their campus, which is huge and a great mix of old preserved buildings and new ones with the latter an even more mix of modern design for some, while others in similar design to their oldest buildings from the late 1800's/i.e. pre-1900 and early turn-of-the-century.

[formerd3db]

ThunderHead:

I am pretty much in agreement with you (certainly some FCS schools just can't be compared in the same category as others - again, why I think there should/could be a different level between DII and the FCS - but...that would probably create too may divisions - just like when DIII was considering splitting into their own sub-divisions - and I'm not sure the NCAA could handle that! Heck, they can't handle what they have now!!j .  I, too, have always believed in the concept that it isn't the size of the school, but rather the commitment its administration is willing to put into the program, just as you have mentioned.  I personally love it when the smaller schools end up beating the BIG ones.  I recall one year when Joe Tiller was coaching at Purdue and Toledo beat them, he made the comment to the media that "we shouldn't be playing those guys".  We'll, I had to laugh because his reasoning was simply flawed...if, as he contended, they were so good, they should slam a team like Toledo every time.  However, where he was wrong is that they for sure should be playing those guys on occasion - he just needed his team to be better prepared for that day's particular game.  Anyway, I love to see the underdogs pull the upset.  I've mentioned this here before as well, but as you and others know, for years people wanted to kick Northwestern out of the Big Ten.  Well, they have smaller enrollment, but have proven they can be competitive with the major programs and they did it the right way.  Similar reasoning for Tulane when Tommy Bowden took them to 12-0 that year and they were not a slouch team at all (although admittedly, they have not done so well in recent years).  On the smaller level, Dayton beat Yale a decade or so ago as I recall, but admittedly, that time as compared to now is very different.  But, my point is that I agree with you in regards to the school deciding what it wants to do at the level it is.

Now...sometime in the future, we certainly should have that discussion about DIII and the scholarship issues - but...perhaps off-line. for obvious reasons!!!! 

[sflzman]

Alma's new turf and scoreboard will definitely be a huge plus and as sflzman knows, they do have a decent fan attendance/following and support of the community.  A few drawbacks in regards to the pressbox and stadium steps, but that is minor.

I will admit, I did a faceplant going up those at one of the rainy games these past years 

[ThunderHead]

A face plant uh?

I remember back in my coaching days trying to motivate my position group by telling them I'd run the stadium stairs if they met the "board goals" in our upcoming game.

Well wouldn't you know it, they did, and on Sunday I put on my training shoes and proceed from field level to the first level of stadium seating. Well, going up wasn't so bad, but then on the way down, I mis-stepped and planted badly. Despite their best efforts, they couldn't help but laugh hysterically while I was recovering from the tumble.

It was more then embarrassing for me, and of course, I never lived it down with that group. Let's just say I never made stair running a motivational tool again, at least as it related to ME running them. 

Did you at least get a friendly hand-up from a fellow Scot? My guys were less then helpful...

Go Trine!!!

[Raider 68]

Based on pure facilities it probably ranks
Trine
Alma
Adrian
Albion
Olivet
Kalamazoo
Hope

But I couldn't really tell you about atmosphere for football games, because though I've been to all the facilities I haven't seen a football game at anywhere besides Alma and Albion.....

Wish i comment on the facilities, but i have only seen Kalamazoo!

[sac]

...Kazoo's pressbox is horribly outdated (from the 1930's)...

This video is for you formerd3db

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG0xyie5u-4&feature=player_embedded



Some renderings of Kzoo's overall project which is much more than just the football stadium.......it also includes an on campus fitness center (not sure if that has started or if not, when).  

http://kzoo.edu/sports/news/fieldsproject/

[ThunderHead]

Here is a question for you re-warriors...

how many MIAA programs have bands that play?

At big programs the band is a huge atmospheric component to game day's across the country, but at how many D3 programs do bands exist? Common or un-common?

Go Trine!!!