FB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[ThunderHead]

Regarding karma, I'm not sure other views on this but I don't pay much attention, some poster who have large amounts of karma may feel otherwisem

Some D1 programs already started with fall camp and its great to see the NFL back on track.

Great info on the Trine scrimmage, if anyone happens to go hopefully we can get an update, not just on that scrimmage but any scrimmage.

As for NAIA - I don't think it is a "step up" from D3. In many cases I would put the average D3 program a head of the average NAIA program, but that's just me.

Go Trine

[Pat Coleman]

In a quick nutshell, posters who have made 200 or more posts have the ability to affect other user's karma. They can applaud (add one point) or smite (subtract one point) from any particular user once in a 24-hour span.

About the NAIA -- there's been a lot of debates on both sides of the aisle. My personal take is that the top team or two is probably on the same level as Mount Union and Whitewater. There are so few NAIA football teams (under 100) that there's a pretty wide range of quality. But we'll never see these teams on the field together, so it's just speculation.

With 24 scholarships to spread over a hundred or so players, there's certainly the chance to make a compelling argument that NAIA teams could be better, but there are plenty of Division III student-athletes that are on par with those players.

[Pat Coleman]

I got challenged by email about the Thursday openers, so I figured I'd better cite the actual Division III manual, in case there are other people who doubt me.

17.9.2.1
First Practice Date. 
A member institution shall not commence official preseason football practice sessions for the varsity, junior varsity or freshman team before the date that will permit a maximum of 25 practice opportunities (see Bylaw 17.9.2.1.1) before its first scheduled intercollegiate game or before the Friday before Labor Day if the institution's first contest (game) is scheduled for the Thursday before Labor Day. (Revised: 1/10/89, 1/10/91 effective 8/1/92, 1/12/04, 1/9/06 effective 8/1/06)

Reiterating what I said earlier -- if you play the Thursday before Labor Day, you still must count your preseason practice opportunities from the Friday. You don't get the extra day.

I'm not going to go through and count Trine's practice opportunities -- I'm sure they're fine. I'm surprised that so many people take this sort of thing personally on this board, however. It's not like the NCAA reads this board looking for violations. I'm just raising a point for discussion that (clearly) a lot of casual fans don't know about.

As a point to detail how unstraightforward the formula is, here it follows.

17.9.2.1.1
Practice Opportunities -- Football. 
In football only, to establish the starting date for preseason practice, the institution shall count one practice opportunity for each day beginning with the opening day of classes and one practice opportunity for each day classes are not in session in the week of the first scheduled intercollegiate contest (see Bylaw 17.9.3).  Next, the institution shall count practice opportunities on an alternating basis in a two-one-two-one format (i.e., the first of the remaining days is counted as two, the next day is counted as one, the next as two, etc.) up to and including the 20th opportunity.  Finally, the institution shall count one practice opportunity for each of the five days before the day of the 20th opportunity. The institution shall not count any days during the preseason when all institutional dormitories are closed, the institution's team must leave campus and practice is not conducted. (Adopted: 1/12/04)

[adidas28]

No chip on my shoulder, I just call 'em like I see 'em.

Welcome back to the board. You might want to put the chip on your shoulder down if you're still wearing it since January. Your fellow Trine fans and I have been having a nice, calm, interesting discussion here of late.

I'm pretty sure they do, too, but it isn't always the case. Heck, St. John's has had the same coach for going on half a century and still made that mistake once. It isn't an easy calculation.

[BOYA87]

[/quote]


Well, practice is just about upon us in DIII.  High schools started this week, NFL went to camp, DI is next week, ahh music to my ears!  I read in the Ft Wayne paper today that Trine will scimmage St Francis-Ft Wayne on Aug 25 at Trine.  Anyone who is in the "know" at Trine, will that be open to the public or will it be a closed scimmage?  Year in and year out St Francis is a Top 5 NAIA school.  I beleive they get partial schollies, right?  What, if any, is the difference in performance?  Is NAIA better football than DIII?
[/quote]

TUAngola- the scrimmage has always been open to the public so I dont forsee why it wold be any different this year.  The last 2 years Trine scrimmaged St Francis it was held in Fort Wayne on their campus (the varsity scimmage at least).  This year it will be at Trine so we will have easy acces to go check it out.

as for the difference in competition between NAIA and DIII, this is a question that has run through my head many times.  My senior year at Trine we added an NAIA team to finish out our 10 game schedule at the end of the season.  At this point we were 9-0 and I started getting very nervous thinking of this question.  I wanted to finish the season perfect so badly but it was hard to know what to expect from a team we've never seen before with scholarship players.  Even with film there was still a big shadow of uncertanty of what this team would bring to the table.  Luckily we rolled through them and finished with Trines first ever 10-0 season.

It would be great to see more cross division games played but they really arent beneficial to either team other than comparing divisions.  getting to scrimmage a top tier NAIA team like St Francis is a great opportunity for Trine.  I feel like it must give our kids loads of confidence to go up against scholarship players who have been on the cusp of multiple national championships.  And not just go up against them but to do well against them.  Last year Trine looked weeks ahead of St. Francis as a team although obviously its hard to tell in that kind of a format.

So my opinion is that NAIA probably has a reputation for being more competitive since they have scholarhsip athletes, but I feel like top tier DIII schools would be able to knock off top teir NAIA's.  Sadly we will never know!  Maybe an all-star game at the end of the year!  DIII vs NAIA?!  Get on that Pat!

[lakeshore]

Pat would be able to accurately quote the record but D3 is something like 45-9 against NAIA over the last couple years.  I agree D3 is higher level of ball.  NAIA "scholarships" typically range in $1000-$2000 area for each player.

[Pat Coleman]

No chip on my shoulder, I just call 'em like I see 'em.

I know you feel that way but it's more like you being so biased for Trine (and that's understandable!) that you can't recognize an unbiased opinion.

Just because we aren't biased for you doesn't mean we're biased against you. If I made lists of all the programs we were accused of biased for and against, it would be a big group, and a lot of programs would be on both lists.

[Pat Coleman]

So my opinion is that NAIA probably has a reputation for being more competitive since they have scholarhsip athletes, but I feel like top tier DIII schools would be able to knock off top teir NAIA's.  Sadly we will never know!  Maybe an all-star game at the end of the year!  DIII vs NAIA?!  Get on that Pat!

We would definitely love to. The amount of money it takes to do an All-Star team right, though, is pretty high. It would be about the same as the annual budget for all of our sites combined. We have definitely looked into the concept of a D-III All-Star Game or a D-III All-Star team but it's more money than we have, by a significant margin. I still have a full-time day job because we can't afford to pay a full salary.

[formerd3db]

If this were facebook I would "like" that post many many times!

Its very true.  I now work in the admissions department and to be honest we dont want every kid that is accepted to come here!  Its all about fit.  Some will opt for bigger public schools simply because of costs.  Others will opt for bigger schools because of their reputations and social opportunities.  Some will go to competing conference schools because they want to be closer to home or feel more comfortable with their campus.  And then some will choose us!  and they choose us because it is a great fit, academically, athletically, financially, and socially.

A college decision is the 2ndest biggest choice a kid can make in their lives next to who their spouse will be.  It is one that a great amount of time, effort, and money is dedicated into making the right decision.  There are plenty of "perfect" colleges out there...just for different people.

I'm not saying there are not examples of people turning down scholarship money to gp D3. D3 schools have plenty to offer and I'm sure a lot of guys find small class rooms and intimate campuses appealing.

I'm also sure there are plenty of D3 kids who would take a full ride to avoid the pitfalls of debt and that don't mind bigger class rooms.

As a D1 grad the class room size didn't bother me at all, and I enjoyed most of my professors.

Big schools have their faults for sure but just because a school is small doesn't mean it is perfect either. Its just a preference I'm sure, I don't think there is a wrong answer, I respect anyone who is trying to improve their education educational background with a plus 2, plus 4, or plus more degree.

Go Trine

It's not all about classroom size. More people cite the feeling that Flying Dutch Fan mentioned earlier, that when you're on an athletic scholarship you feel like the coach basically owns you, that football (or whatever sport) is your life, that you can't be a well-rounded student.

So few people come out of college with no debt these days that I almost don't think that's a factor. Only the I-A/FBS scholarships are guaranteed to be full rides -- most of the rest are split up into bits and chunks. And it's even worse when you get beyond football and basketball.

And if you're only getting a partial scholarship, which most college football athletes who get scholarships are, then you may actually do better with a grant-in-aid package at a Division III school. If your goal is to brag to your friends that you "got a football scholarship" then yeah, take that $3,000 in athletics aid. But you may do better with grants and academic scholarships elsewhere.

And that doesn't even begin to talk about the playing time argument, that you may be in line to play much earlier at a D-III school, rather than redshirting, then riding the pine for two years.

I have 2 sons that have played College football, both had D1 offers.

1 played at a Major D1 university, starter, injuried never got back on field. Good size, speed, agility. Graduated and moved on proud of school and choice great education.

1 turned down a D1 offers, to play DIII football, Starter, Captain, Study Abroad, Officers Candidate and Graduate, proudly served our country in the Armed Forces.

Daughter turned down scholarships for sports to attend an aggressive program in her chosen field. It is all about choices.

Different stories for different young adults, depends on what your goals and opportunities in life are.

Very few ever make it to the next level, the level of football should not be your soul decision. 4 years later it is all a great memory and acheivement, the life long gain is did you take advantage of your opportunity.

We have commented before at length on the relative value of D1, DII and DIII educations.
The value is more about YOUR individual values and what you work to gain from the opportunity.

Excellent posts/comments Pat, BOY and D306.  My sentiments, exactly - you all said it better than me.

[Uncle Rico]

So my opinion is that NAIA probably has a reputation for being more competitive since they have scholarhsip athletes, but I feel like top tier DIII schools would be able to knock off top teir NAIA's.  Sadly we will never know!  Maybe an all-star game at the end of the year!  DIII vs NAIA?!  Get on that Pat!

We would definitely love to. The amount of money it takes to do an All-Star team right, though, is pretty high. It would be about the same as the annual budget for all of our sites combined. We have definitely looked into the concept of a D-III All-Star Game or a D-III All-Star team but it's more money than we have, by a significant margin. I still have a full-time day job because we can't afford to pay a full salary.

Pat,

I hate it when work gets in the way of what we truly love to do!     Then again, I am also thankful I have that work.

When determining the budget, did you factor flying the players in on your dime, or having the kids provide their own way to get there?  The all star game my son attended required us to pay his way down to Mexico. That cost might prevent some kids from being able to attend, but I am sure a lot of D3 kids would be willing to pay for that extra game if it were an all star game.  One last chance for many seniors to play the game. 

Because it was a package deal it was maybe a little cheaper than doing it on his own.  If located in a major, centrally located city perhaps the air fare and accomodations would not be too bad either.  I believe the NCAA USED to sponsor that game in Mexico but then pulled out.  Might be a good way for a lot of D3 schools to get some recognition.  It would also provide us D3 fans another post-season game to watch other than the annual Mount Union / Whitewater clash at the end of the year.   

[sflzman]

Released at 10:00 am this morning.

Trine Picked To Repeat As MIAA Football Champs
Defending champion Trine has been picked to win the MIAA football championship for the fourth consecutive year in a preseason poll of the league's coaches.
The Thunder, who have won 20 consecutive MIAA contests dating back to 2007, received six of the seven first-place votes in the coaches poll released Monday. Coaches could not vote for their own team.

Albion, which received the other first-place vote, was picked to finish second, followed by Adrian, Hope, Alma, Kalamazoo and Olivet.

Poll Results (first-place votes in parenthesis): 1. Trine (6) 6 pts. 2. Albion (1) 12. 3. Adrian 15. 4. Hope 23. 5. Alma 25. 6. Kalamazoo 31. 7. Olivet 35.

Last fall, Trine finished with a perfect 6-0 record in MIAA play (11-1 overall) and defeated DePauw, Ind. 45-35 in a first-round game in the NCAA Division III football playoffs. The Thunder were defeated in the second round by eventual national champion Wisconsin-Whitewater, 45-31.

The MIAA will kick off its 114th season of intercollegiate football action Thursday, Sept. 1, as Trine visits Manchester, Ind. League play begins Saturday, Oct. 1.

[Pat Coleman]

So my opinion is that NAIA probably has a reputation for being more competitive since they have scholarhsip athletes, but I feel like top tier DIII schools would be able to knock off top teir NAIA's.  Sadly we will never know!  Maybe an all-star game at the end of the year!  DIII vs NAIA?!  Get on that Pat!

We would definitely love to. The amount of money it takes to do an All-Star team right, though, is pretty high. It would be about the same as the annual budget for all of our sites combined. We have definitely looked into the concept of a D-III All-Star Game or a D-III All-Star team but it's more money than we have, by a significant margin. I still have a full-time day job because we can't afford to pay a full salary.

Pat,

I hate it when work gets in the way of what we truly love to do!    Then again, I am also thankful I have that work.

When determining the budget, did you factor flying the players in on your dime, or having the kids provide their own way to get there?  The all star game my son attended required us to pay his way down to Mexico. That cost might prevent some kids from being able to attend, but I am sure a lot of D3 kids would be willing to pay for that extra game if it were an all star game.  One last chance for many seniors to play the game.  

Because it was a package deal it was maybe a little cheaper than doing it on his own.  If located in a major, centrally located city perhaps the air fare and accomodations would not be too bad either.  I believe the NCAA USED to sponsor that game in Mexico but then pulled out.  Might be a good way for a lot of D3 schools to get some recognition.  It would also provide us D3 fans another post-season game to watch other than the annual Mount Union / Whitewater clash at the end of the year.  

We really want to do something "the right way" and that means not making the players pay. There are a couple games out there that still exist and the players have to pay out of their own pockets, which means they don't necessarily get the most worthy players. It's a struggle, to be sure.

The NCAA didn't sponsor the Aztec Bowl, unfortunately. They don't sponsor any all-star games. It was the AFCA, the football coaches association. They pulled out of the game.

Keith McMillan wrote a column about it a couple of years ago:

http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2009/why-dont-we-have-an-all-star-game

[pg04]

I think what we really need is some millionaire benefactor to support this site!  Come on, there has to be someone out there making several million who went to a D3 school and is passionate about D3 sports.  Doesn't there??  I wish I was that person, I would definitely help out! 

[sflzman]

I think what we really need is some millionaire benefactor to support this site!  Come on, there has to be someone out there making several million who went to a D3 school and is passionate about D3 sports.  Doesn't there??  I wish I was that person, I would definitely help out! 

Well see, there is, but they all donate the money to their respective schools. Like Devos at Hope, and Hatcher at Alma to name a few

[Raider 68]

Released at 10:00 am this morning.

Trine Picked To Repeat As MIAA Football Champs
Defending champion Trine has been picked to win the MIAA football championship for the fourth consecutive year in a preseason poll of the league’s coaches.
The Thunder, who have won 20 consecutive MIAA contests dating back to 2007, received six of the seven first-place votes in the coaches poll released Monday. Coaches could not vote for their own team.

Albion, which received the other first-place vote, was picked to finish second, followed by Adrian, Hope, Alma, Kalamazoo and Olivet.

Poll Results (first-place votes in parenthesis): 1. Trine (6) 6 pts. 2. Albion (1) 12. 3. Adrian 15. 4. Hope 23. 5. Alma 25. 6. Kalamazoo 31. 7. Olivet 35.

Last fall, Trine finished with a perfect 6-0 record in MIAA play (11-1 overall) and defeated DePauw, Ind. 45-35 in a first-round game in the NCAA Division III football playoffs. The Thunder were defeated in the second round by eventual national champion Wisconsin-Whitewater, 45-31.

The MIAA will kick off its 114th season of intercollegiate football action Thursday, Sept. 1, as Trine visits Manchester, Ind. League play begins Saturday, Oct. 1.

sflzman,

Thanks for the info, not surprized to see Trine picked to win the MIAA, but which one of the "A" named schools will finish 2nd or give Trine a real test?