FB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[ThunderHead]

FF

depending on family issues, I am coming from NC, I have 2 residences presently NC and TN.

Sorry if this is off topic but those who have asked in the past, Grandkids (twins) are doing as well as can be expected.
Daughter in Law has adjusted to the loss of Husband and young son.
Twins are making mental / cognitive progress, physically, emotionally it is a fight that has a predetermined outcome just a matter of when or a miracle.

UofM wins in a tight game, really could go either way with no surprise of a close win or blow-out either way.

MSU has great defense may have a some questions in backside but Offense is in a funk. Strong RB group, OL is questionable and not healthy. QB is not living up to 5th year Senior status too many mental errors and bad throws. Many are forced as the line provides no protection, can not keep a run game to spin clock or keep teams honest. Play calling has to commit to a game plan, I question some of the trick play calls this year. Got lucky, nice call last year going to the well to often has lost the "surprise" effect.

UofM young defense living on energy and good adjustments by coaching staff, need some DL, LB pure size, backside not as weak as many thought going in to year.
Offense working on a running game, a little better than many expected, OL is solid not great. QB is a freak, too many passes with a lot of "air" on them. Expect turnovers Big threat is a broken play and loss of containment, he will make you pay very fast.
Coaching / Karma is on UofM side, Home game on MSU side  should be a great game, not a picture of BCS quality teams but very Physical and spirited. Expect some big plays, and penalties to be critical. UofM is playing over the talent level, winning on attitude key to the season, is what happens when the crazy comeback fails then the real coaching starts.

Hitting Grand Haven after the game to check out the cottage, make sure the racoons, field mice and other animals that probably moved into the garage with lack of use are happy 

FF
I take it your son plays for Adrian, congrats to you and him.  Great experience for him. The new coaching staff has been good for Adrian win or lose. It was time for a change.

Enjoy his time playing, it is something only a few families and young men get to experience.
Document all you can, he and your family will love to review it as the years pass.

Wish we had better pictures, films, etc... of our kids playing days, let alone what they have for old codgers like me. No I did not have a leather helmut 

D306,

Thanks for all the kind words, and actually, I'm in the GR area right now, awaiting a possible move out west at the first of the year, provided they handle the situation out west correctly. Otherwise I will here stay in GR, or possibly be sent to Indianapolis. Trust me, the wife isn't happy with how things have progressed, nor am I. Though we are enjoying Grand Rapids.

Now all this said, I have to differ with you slightly on the highlighted, I know it's not MIAA or D3 related, but I figured I chime in seeing how it's a rivalry game.

MSU defense has played very well this year, (number 1 overall defense in the country) with a very good front four, and some terrific edge to flat defenders in the LB core, however where their strength dwells is within their secondary. They have four very talented defensive backs, and I fully believe they have and advantage over the Michigan WR core and Denard "250 Dead or Alive" Robinson. 

Now, as for Kirk Cousins and the offense...forgive me is this is a little long, but I think the general feeling about him, even in EL, is a bit off. And if you take all things into consideration, he's doing well.

Sure, everyone--including Kirk himself--would agree that the MSU QB play hasn't always been perfect this year. But people need to remember that QB is a position where perfection is an aspiration, not a reality. However, if a guys isn't playing well, I think it's fair to address it. So I went back and compared Cousins' numbers through five games last year with his numbers this year. You can draw your own conclusions.

2010
Western Michigan (72 Total Defense): 13-21, 186 YDS, TD
Florida Atlantic (85 Total Defense): 9-17, 142 YDS, TD, INT
Notre Dame: (47 Total Defense): 23-33, 245 YDS, 2 TD, INT
Northern Colorado (FCS): 16-20, 290 YDS, 2 TD
Wisconsin (22 Total Defense): 20-29, 269 YDS, 3 TD, 2 INT

TOTAL (56.5 Average Total Defense): 81-120, 67.5%, 1132 YDS, 9 TD, 4 INT

2011
Youngstown State (FCS): 18-22, 222 YDS
Florida Atlantic (99 Total Defense): 16-21, 183 YDS, 2 TD
@ Notre Dame (31 Total Defense): 34-53, 329 YDS, TD, INT
Central Michigan (81 Total Defense): 13-22 YDS, TD, INT
@ Ohio State (13 Total Defense): 20-32, 250 YDS, TD, 2 INT

TOTAL (56 Average Total Defense): 101-149, 67.7%, 1197 YDS, 6 TD, 4 INT

Again, you can draw your own conclusions. But here are some of mine. Cousins is matching any reasonable expectations. People need to remember MSU lost Mark Dell, a four year starting receiver with down field potential, solid hands and great route running skills. Who did MSU replace him with? Well, no one. MSU is essentially relying on a slot/bubble-screen receiver (Martin) and a big bodied possession receiver (Nichol) to make up for a outside receiver. And it isn't working.

Did MSU lose anyone else? Yes. Charlie Gantt, another long time starter with unique pass catching and run blocking skills. Sure, they replaced him with a higher ceiling guy in Sims, but he hasn't played football in over 18 months. And Linthicum is Linthicum--average receiver and average blocker.

Did MSU lose anyone else? Yes. Bennie Fowler. Now this isn't nearly as big as the Dell and Gantt losses, but he was an emerging threat who brings outside receiver skills and big play ability. I would argue his loss for the passing game cost MSU three of its four best passing targets, although the difference between he and Martin's importance is probably negligible.

Are there any other issues affecting the passing game? Yes. First, MSU's run game is sputtering at this point. Without the serious threat of a run game, MSU will continue to see its play action calls struggle. Second, MSU is not only breaking in new offensive lineman, but they are dealing with an epidemic amount of attrition on the offensive line. On a positive note, they played better against OSU, but last year's line was better and more cohesive, which doesn't say much for this year's line thus far. Third, MSU is breaking in a new offensive coordinator, which cannot be understated. Clearly, Roushar is struggling to put the team in advantageous situations at times, and no one is more affected than Cousins, the leader of the offense. Fourth, MSU has played to solid defense on the road this year, unlike last year. If hostile crowds affect anything, it is the passing game. Add in solid defenses, littered with NFL talent, and you should expect a few bad decisions from your quarterback.

So add it up:
1. Losing three of your top four/five receiving targets (Dell, Gantt, Fowler)
2. Struggling run game.
3. New and injured offensive line.
4. New offensive coordinator.
5. Tough road games against very solid defense.

Yet, Kirk Cousins has essentially replicated his numbers.

Again, you can draw your own conclusions, but from a production standpoint, he seems to be carrying his load.

[D306]

Thunder

As always nice fact based post.

I will disagree on defensive back field for MSU
I think they look OK due to the fact that the DL and edge rush is very good.
Positioning is not good, possibly it is a effect of the high pressure, high number of bodies pressing the box.
i believe a good passing team will take advantage of these opportunities.
That being said I do not think UofM will be that team except on quick hits and broken plays

I agree MSU lost a ton of talent on OL and WR core.
That is why MSU is struggling.
Some of the throws are just unacceptable, I have no doubt that he is talented, just decision process if lacking.
Are those decisions based on poor line play certainly, but that is why I say for a 5th year Senior I expect more.
The game score and flow have a lot to do with timing of plays.
The teams referenced from last year and this year while looking similar in defensive standing in the numbers, are not equal. What were the teams these teams played, the offensive quality of who they played, situation in game, and were they play all come into review.
The sheer number of passes this year compared to last year tells an interesting story for MSU this year.

Thank You for the comments I am exactly backwards on your residence, that is what I get for being a sometimes poster and follower of this board.

By the way +1 on karma another well thought out post.
Wish I was as detailed on my posts, I am typically random thoughts as I type and reply.

See ya folks enjoy the games, I have a plane to catch if I am going to be back in time for trip to East Lansing

[hopewatcher]

Hi All...

Just wanted to get a couple of comments (albeit some are a little late) before the weekend action started.....
Last weeks Hope-Kalamazoo games was a fun environment to be in...I agree with formerd3db's comments, but will add in a little...my son tells me that the team noticed the crowds enthusiasm (and size) and the band is always a great addition to that (Lets please keep that as part of the festivities)...these things do make a difference to the players.....as far as the game itself, although the score was reasonably close (22-15) it easily could have been 29-8 had Hope punched it in with their 2 chances at the 1, and had they not fumbled the ball into the endzone for a Kalamazoo score.....it was a good game for Hope...a very big win....but kalamazoo also showed that they are capable of being a very good team and can beat some folks along the way...I know they are 0-2 at the moment, but are not playing like an 0-2 team and will get some big wins...I also was impressed with their freshman quarterback, who played the entire 2nd half...He trhew fairly well and ran for 65 yards......that bodes well for the future or if Jones can't go....They will be a factor this season....

This week is another BIG one for Hope (they all will be).....The next three games will be a big part of defining the season for them, but no single win or loss may decide the final league standings with as much partity (with all due respect to and fully acknowledging Adrians's record, ranking and deserved placement as the league favorites) ...how Hope's team deals with each opponent, one at a time, let go of 'last week', don't look forward to 'next week', and focus only on the opponent at had....continue to play with emotion and tenactiy, continue to get better defensively, and keep working on eliminating the offensive mistakes...Special teams was much better against Kalamazoo, but the offensive errors that occured in the game, may be cost us a win as the season moves forward......By doing those things, Hope can compete for the win this week, and still may play some sort of role in the outcome of who wins the league race...but, Albion is a good team (Don't let their record deceive you...they lost to some very good teams) so without that total commitment on all fronts, the Dutchmen can still lose to anyone in the league.....So, as I seem to say every week, it all comes down to the player's attitude and how they perform right from the beginning......We'll see what they chose to do....Go Hope! 

[formerd3db]

D306 and FF:

First, good to hear from you D306 and glad you continue to post with us here on occasion.  I am also glad to hear that things are stable and improved for you and your extended family.  Truly, I have been keeping you in prayer for that and I'm sure others here have done so as well.

Yes, "ain't that the truth" about us former old athletes being, shall we say, less than eager to admit our talents are not the same as they were several years ago. .  Like yours, my knees have been the occasional problem, although I will say (although not boasting here, so please no one misinterpret it that way) that I'm in better shape at this time than a great number of my former teammates and/or other guys my age.  While I can still give a good hit or two (legal hits, course, ) from my old db football days when playing lax with the young guys, I will admit that I have to succumb to the "old man's rule" when playing at the middie spot on occasion i.e. after the 3rd run back/forth up the field, you come off!!! Nonetheless, you and cave2 are right, one has to be careful at this stage of "the game" in our lives as I don't really want to have to have a knee or an achilles tendon repaired.

As for the U of Michigan game, you guys recall that I am a U of Mich fan since my father was an alum there (I went to many, many games as a kid with my parents when they had season tickets -dad used to know the ticket manager also - although my late parents gave their season tickets up years ago when my brother and I were both playing in college as they went to all of our games).  Anyway, I am obviously hoping that U of M wins, yet, I have a feeling that Michigan State will have the edge since they are at home, even though their offense hasn't played as well in of recent.  Regardless, I think it will be a classic tough U of M/MSU game.  I hope you guys enjoy it.

FF- also, indeed, I echo what D306 mentions about savoring everyminute about your son's collegiate playing career (just ask Uncle Rico and LIT - they can tell you the same also).  To this day, I and my brother have the greatest memories from our playing days and enjoy so much sharing those with and reminiscing with former teammates, college friends, family, etc. and reviewing the many (old ) photos, scrap books, momentos, etc. (and swapping stories) never gets boring.  So enjoy it.  I still remember the last time I walked off Adrian's former field with my mom in my senior year when we (Hope) played there - we had one game remaining and it was a special moment - a bit melancholy, knowing the end of a playing career was near, but still savoring every moment of the occasion.  While your son will obviously do that, even as a parent, you will do the same in so many ways.  Hey, what a great opportunity for yoy and him going to the U of M/MSU game during your "bye" week at Adrian.  Have a great time.  Perhaps see you in two weeks when we play Adrian then.


Again, all the best for a great weekend to you FF and D306 and our other colleagues here as well.

P.S. Let's all pray for "no rain".      

[formerd3db]

Hopewatcher:
Well said, all inclusive re: last week and this week.  Also, setting the tone early for Hope tomorrow will be a key and then continuing "to the finish".  Albion is always so capable of a quick strike, even when they are behind.  They are so tough to play at their own home stadium, however, they are at ours as well, even though it is Homecoming for us.  We can't afford any letdowns.

BTW, D306, no problem about you still not being able to root for Albion.  Even though my brother's youngest son attends Michigan State (his oldest attended U of Mich like our dad as I mentioned), I still can't make myself root for Michigan State or get used to seeing my brother wear that athletic gear!   It's even less attractive with an Alma College/Michigan State combo of athletic wear!!!   (I'll have my U of M T-shirt under my Hope gear tomorrow!

ThunderHead:
Good analysis, although I agee with D306 about Michigan State's defensive backfield - not playing up to their potential.  Average to me.  Now, we could say the same thing about about Michigan's secondary as they have been atrocious in past years and even begining of this year, although they have done better the past couple of weeks.  Yet, if Cousins and his receiving crew get back to what they've done in the past (even though they don't have the type of total talent in the receiving core that they've had the past 2-3 years or so), they will give Michigan some real trouble.  Also, while Cousins has put up his near usual numbers, IMO, he still has not played up to what he is capable of.  Passing accuracy has been off and part of this is because he is worried about getting smashed by the rush.  If he just plays beyond that mental attitude ("head game") which, obviously, is hard to do and easier said than done - i.e. easier for us "arm chair" QBs to say - then, again, he and their offense will be pushing Michigan very hard.

Great posts all.  So good to see such enthusiastic and active posting on here this year!

[Uncle Rico]

UM vs msu

I think looking at rankings when comparing performance is a little misleading because those rankings aren't comparing teams with similiar schedules, especially this early in the season when most schools have not gotten in to the heart of their conference play yet.  If a team is ranked high in a particular aspect yet has played weak opponents, their rankings can be scewed accordingly.  A team could have mediocre rankings in a number of areas but if they played a very difficult schedule their ability might be better than rankings indicate.  A perfect example could be Michigan's overall rankings nationally right now.  I think they are way too high.

I think msu should win the game and probably will.      That said, I will be rooting enthusiastically for Michigan partially out of spite for all of my Lansing based in-laws that have made my life miserable the last three years.  My only relief has come from Michigan beating the spartans in basketball the last two games, and I am not betting the farm that trend will continue either.  I also believe that Michigan is on the right course towards turning the football program around and although it might not happen this year, I believe the future is brighter. 

[formerd3db]

I rather think you are right on all that Uncle Rico!   I, too, was glad to see Michigan finally win both of the basketball games last season against Michigan State (like it was in the "good old days" ), however, I am apprehensive that might not be the case this year.  Anyway, if Michigan somehow beats Michigan State tomorrow at Spartan Stadium, you know they will have taken that one little next step to being a legit good team, although the still have some very tough games remaining, win or lose.

Any chance you'll be at the Hope/Trine game next week?  I'll be there, on my way back from a required conference in Chicago.  If you are, let me know - it would be great to visit and eat a hot dog at the half! (although, I promise I won't throw it like that guy did at Tiger Woods!

[Uncle Rico]

Yes, LIT and I should be there next weekend.  We will have the Thunder Bus (a converted airport shuttle bus) and even if the weather is foul we will have some good shelter for tailgaiting and such.  Hope to see you there!

[ThunderHead]

UR - I think you're correct with your thoughts on early season rankings based on the body of work.

But a guy I was at work with said "MSU only beats UofM when U of M is down". I'm sick of the excuse by Michigan fans that "State can only beat Michigan when they're down". Let's look at the numbers.

Comparing final season records for each school in years that they played each other, here are the facts:

There have been only 8 games where both teams have finished the season with a Winning % of at least .667, or 2/3rds of their games. Of those 8 games, MSU has won 5.

There have been 22 games where both teams have finished the season with a Winning % of at least .600. The series is 12-9-1 in favor of UofM.

The most telling though is in the years in which both teams went to bowl games, 15 times, MSU edges out UofM 8-7 in the head-to-head match-up.

The media is quick to mention and down play MSU's #1 defensive ranking due to their early season schedule, but have no problem extolling the virtues of UM's offense when they have played relatively a comparable weak group of opponents.

MSU's defensive performance against OSU should be just as note worthy as UM's offensive output against ND, considering how the OSU offense performed against Nebraska.

As for my thoughts on the MSU defensive backfield, they're a very young group aside from Trenton Robinson, however I believe they have a distinct advantage over the U of M receiver core. Either way I think it will be a good game, but ultimately I see Michigan State winning by 10. At some point I think Michigan will put together a quick score or two, and when MSU weathers that storm, and knocks Denard around a bit, while also having some fun with Gardner, it will be Sparty time in EL. I also think Cousins will be pin point Saturday. 

Also, I really like the fact UM is 1st in takaways and Giveaways. That means that they're just as TO prone as the past few years, but are falling on more loose balls (12 fumble recoveries in 6 games/ 10 in the 5 that count in the NCAA, vs. 5 (unofficial)/4 (official) INTS).

The fumble recoveries are completely random. It's unlikely that UM will continue picking up 2 fumble recoveries per game. If that # falls off, look for their TO margin to drop drastically.

Keep in mind that despite leading the B1G in takaways, they're tied with MSU for TO Margin (+.60). MSU does a much better job of protecting the ball than UM does, and I like MSU's chances of winning the TO battle, and the game.

I also have been hearing "well Michigan just didn't get good recruits with Rich Rod, which is why we didn't win." Really?

2007 = #12 (MSU #42)
2008 = #10 (MSU #47)
2009 = #8 (MSU #17)
2010 = #20 (MSU #30)
2011 = #21 (MSU #31)

But alas, we shall see tomorrow. One thing I know, EL will be rockin, and I can't wait to join the party. 

PS - wait till you see the game field in EL Saturday.... 

[sac]

Major fundraising announcement from Hope, more construction on the way.

http://cms.hope.edu/pr/pressreleases/content/view/full/31827

I think I counted 5 separate construction projects.  Included is endowments for athletic facilities maintenance but makes no mention of Holland Municipal Stadium.

[Uncle Rico]

TH...

I am not going to try to justify your guy at works argument that "msu only beats Michigan when Michigan is down" because I think that is silly.  With the exception of the last three years with state winning, usually when msu does win it is an upset because usually Michigan is favored, so I disagree totally with that person at works premise. 

And I do not see all the praise being heaped on Michigan's offense that you see.  On the contrary, I see more of the same concern that the running game is still questionable and the O still relies too much on Denard's legs.

The bottom line is that over the course of the long haul, Michigan has been a better football program than msu.  However, state has certainly had the upper hand recently and it is what it is.  Since you like to find stats to support your points, I offer this...

"Michigan currently holds the series record at 67-31-5. MSU's period of dominance in the series' history was from 1950 to 1969, where they went 14-4-2. The Wolverines hold long winning streaks of six (2002-2007), eight (1970-77), and 10 games (1938-49), and an 18-game unbeaten streak from 1916 to 1933, in series history. The MSU Spartans also have won the past three meetings in 2008 thru 2010."

Not counting all the games prior to my existence, Michigan has still had the upper hand over the course of my lifetime, which includes the six game and eight game winning streaks.

For too long it seemed as if the highlight of a spartan season is beating Michigan regardless of anything else.  Of course, that is turning around some now that state has handed it to Michigan.  Bottom line for me is that I would like to see both schools excel, and may the best team win between the two (hopefully Michigan), and have them BOTH beat the snot out of Ohio State!     

   

[ThunderHead]

UR

Good points. I think perhaps I hear a lot about Michigan and how great they are because I'm now in Michigan and on the west side, where the media seems to have a direct link to the "blue wall" over in AA.  Aside from that most people around here are BIG Michigan fans, and incredibly arrogant.

And now the vent:

They show absolutely no humility, even in defeat. They cling to "slightly misleading" records like "the winningest college football program" that were built on counting wins over teams like The Detroit Athletic Club and Ann Arbor High School. I'm not impressed that your 1800s football team beat the Chicago Physicians and Surgeons, and I'm even less impressed that they try to manufacture a storied history out of it. "All of our undefeated seasons..."(ei. the 1880 "undefeated" season in which they only played one game going 1-0 and beating Toronto - or the 1884 season where they went "undefeated" again, this time 2-0 beating Albion and Chicago University Club - or the 1898 season where they went undefeated playing teams like Western Reserve, Kenyon, Beloit, and Chicago)

U of M has won exactly one "shared" NT since WW2, but most fans act as if Michigan is continually a national power. They are not Florida, Ohio State, USC, or Texas. They act as if MSU and OSU are beneath them, despite recent records that indicate anything but.

While there is no denying UofM has had great runs, and definitely had MSU's number for long periods of time in recent years, I think the Michigan fans, at least around me, seem to be un-realistic with exactly how "great" their football program is, and to some degree are pretty delusional about where their football program is going.

While I'm sure Brady Hoke will restore a level of credibility to the program, Rich Rods programs went 4-0, and 5-0, to start seasons in the past, yet for some reason, this season's 6-0 is "more legitimate" even through U of M's strength of schedule is far less then impressive thus far.

So - while I think tomorrow is going to be a good game, I'm not sure Michigan is where it's fan base thinks it's at. I guess these Michigan fans are getting to me, Go Green!!!

[Uncle Rico]

TH...I agree with you more than you think.  Michigan is NOT on the same level as some of the teams you mentioned.  And to be quite frank, I am not sure how easy it would be to get there when you look at the talent pool in the regions down south and even in Ohio.  And the attraction of schools in areas out west are certainly hard to overcome.  As much as I love the state of Michigan, it "aint" always pretty weather wise come late January, February, etc...  Although the fall is nice.  Some have ripped Michigan for not getting enough in-state recruits, but I think it is also fair to say that to get by with strictly Michigan kids would be tough if you want to compete nationally.

The other point is that although Michigan has not been squeaky clean, a few of the programs that have been more successful have also been slapped with some MAJOR violations.  I am not naive enough to think that Michigan (or state) is perfect, but to date they have not been nailed with the type of transgressions that some of those big time programs have in football.  I also give credit to Dantonio too for not falling into that trap, and I would rather see Michigan AND state run clean programs and still manage to win.  I was not a Rich Rod fan from the beginning...I did not like the way he came over and I did not like some of the things that came out.  I think it is increasingly hard to be successful and do it cleanly.

The thing about Michigan is that they used to show long term consistancy as opposed to sharp rises and declines.  You used to be able to count on at least a pretty decent season every year.  No so for the last three years.  I think that is one of the reasons the fan base grew as large as it is..some level on consistancy.  Even if they weren't going to win it all, you could count on them making a pretty good show for themselves in the past.  Even the year they lost to Appalacian State, they turned it around slightly in the end and at least beat Urban Meyer and Florida to send Lloyd off on a winning note.  I think that is why people are fired up about Hoke because he is more of a link to the "better days" than the past regime.  And I think that he is attracting more of the kids from a recruiting perspective because he is more of a link to the past.  Even if the past is not as storied as some programs, it isn't all that bad.

With the fan base as large as it is, you are bound to get more rabid fans based on the sheer numbers.  And you are likely to draw more media attention.  That is just the reality.  With more fans, just based on sheer numbers, you are more likely to hear from ALL kinds with all sorts of opinions.  It is not right to lump all fans together just because of a few crackpots.

I think you are caught up listening to the vocal minority of Michigan fans who think that this year will be a title run type season.  Most sensible fans (not as vocal) aren't too caught up in the hype and realize that the high ranking has really not been earned.  There is hopeful optimism, for sure, but if you talk to most Michigan believers they still feel there is a long long way to go.  Even on this board if you notice some of the Michigan faithful want a win but the expectations are more grounded.

Long term, I do hope that Michigan gets to the level of national powerhouse.  And believe it or not, I would also like to see MSU get there too.  Wouldn't that be an awesome thing for the state, and the rivalry?  I think that is quite a task based on all the challenges, but it is something to strive for.  Will they get there with Hoke?  Who knows?  But I do like the Blue gatorade as has been pointed out in the past. 

[ThunderHead]

UR,

I do make mention of the blue Gatorade quite frequently don't I? 

I know a few guys who played for Michigan, and most of them are very reasonable, very humble people. However the  Michigan fans that I have met that are, well "obnoxious" have definitely not been in the "minority", but rather the "majority". And sadly, this group includes at least one family member.  I suppose that comes with the consistency they have had and yet, the issue I have is isn't with the chest beating after wins, it's the mere fact they (the Michigan fans I know through work, family, friends, and church) don't handle losing with the slightest bit of grace.

IMO Michigan isn't what it was, everyone now has media, every major program I've been a part of has had a rabid fan base full of die-hards. MSU has a strong following in my opinion, and doesn't need to take a back seat to Michigan, nor does Ohio State, Wisconsin, Nebraska, Penn State, Iowa or even Illinois to name a few. (and that's just in the B1G) As a matter of fact, as far as tailgating and pre-game atmosphere goes, Michigan lacks plenty compared to other programs in that named group. (does anything beat Camp Randell in the fall?)

Anyway - I'm excited for tomorrow. And as always UR, I enjoy the conversation. I hope you have safe travels up to Alma if you're going, if not, I hope you have a great weekend, along with the rest of you guys. 

wojo chimes in: http://detnews.com/article/20111014/OPINION03/110140359

[formerd3db]

TH and UR:

I'm not sure I should (or want to ) get into the middle of your Michigan/Michigan State discussion, but...   I will just relate a couple of opinions:  a) I certainly was not a Rich Rod fan either and that was one of the worst/lowest points in Michigan football history in many aspects, including integrity as to how that all came down in the first place - most of which was his fault; b) as far as your relation about the historic Michigan football history, I would disagree with you in that you are overlooking the fact that in all those early years, almost all the teams played not-so-talented teams so everyone was pretty much in the same "boat" so to speak. You forget that Yost's U of Michigan teams in 1901-1902, i.e. the "point a minute" teams were among the best ever; A.A. Stagg's teams in the late '90's, early 1990's were emerging as powerful teams as well in the overall comparison; heck, even Alma College beat Michigan State 18-16 in 1896 and tied them as well 0-0, so comparison of all these teams back then whether today's small colleges or those that went on to become the big teams of today is all relative (heck, even Albion College beat and tied Notre Dame during the pre-turn of the century stretch) - I should know this since I've researched and published on "this stuff" for a long time and that is not meant as being arrogant ); c) unfortunately, you "can't throw the stones" at Michigan fans entirely either because just as many Michigan State fans have been as arrogant and flippant and jealous over the years because of Michigan's dominance over Michigan State in football overall (after the 1966 national championship MSU era) and basketball overall until the last decade (i.e. Cazzie Russell era and then beyond) and furthermore, unfortunately, Michigan State has not actually handled many of their athletic and coaching situations, disciplinary aspects with class it is sad to say either - there are many examples I could cite about this dating from the Perles years to, yes, including Dantonio of recent but I won't (again, you are correct about some of the U of Michigan slip-ups of recent, however, Schembechler  and Carr put up with none of that; nor did Daugherty and Munn, atthough I think all of us would agree those were entirely different times in the college football world than we have now in almost all aspects and that is without question the fault of "society" by some people).

At any rate, as much as I am a die-hard Michigan fan, I am not so nieve as to "jump on the band" wagon like so many of their/fans appear to be doing.  Hoke is running an above-board program so far, has injected great hope and enthusiasm and they are steadily improving. However, anyone who thinks they are going to "steamroll this season" is simply not realistic.  Obviously, as we have all said, tomorrow's game will be a big test for Michigan, yet it will also be for Michigan State as well because neither team is as good as some people seem to think they are.   So as you have said, may the best team win tomorrow - the one who plays steady, doesn't lose their "cool", makes the least mistakes and "finishes".   Just MO, friends.