FB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[raideralley]

Let's remember what Tressel did for a second before people start dismissing his little problem as not significant  (by comparison obvious).  He LIED to the NCAA 3 times about players eligibility, he didn't even go to his AD when he learned of a problem, he clearly and flagrantly violated NCAA rules.  He didn't get fired because some dudes were getting free ink.  He was fired (sorry allowed to honorably retire  ) because he lied to his employer and the NCAA.  It took OSU 6 months of doing the happy bear dance around the issue to finally come to the conclusion they do something other than nothing. 

Either way, the way the higher ups at these two institutions have handled both situations has been embarrassing for everyone.


In the bad analogies department, a homicide is still a homicide even if the person didn't kill as many as the serial killer down the block. 

Listen what Ohio st did was wrong and it really put a blemish on the university but to try and compare "tatoo gate" and the situation at Penn St is ludicrous!!!

Im not sure I quite understand your analogy, but the penn st situation is like a homicide. The ohio st situation is like petty theft.

[sflzman]

Possible in-house problems may be like the suspension that Coach Cole served this year, who's details never were released to the public....

[formerd3db]

Let's remember what Tressel did for a second before people start dismissing his little problem as not significant  (by comparison obvious).  He LIED to the NCAA 3 times about players eligibility, he didn't even go to his AD when he learned of a problem, he clearly and flagrantly violated NCAA rules.  He didn't get fired because some dudes were getting free ink.  He was fired (sorry allowed to honorably retire  ) because he lied to his employer and the NCAA.  It took OSU 6 months of doing the happy bear dance around the issue to finally come to the conclusion they do something other than nothing. 

Either way, the way the higher ups at these two institutions have handled both situations has been embarrassing for everyone.


In the bad analogies department, a homicide is still a homicide even if the person didn't kill as many as the serial killer down the block. 

Listen what Ohio st did was wrong and it really put a blemish on the university but to try and compare "tatoo gate" and the situation at Penn St is ludicrous!!!

Im not sure I quite understand your analogy, but the penn st situation is like a homicide. The ohio st situation is like petty theft.

raideralley:
In essence, I whole heartedly agree with you.  However, for some, if you consider the "faith based" aspect, in the eyes God, any and all sins are equal.  Of course, in our human society, obviously, there are degrees of this as evidenced by the punishment rendered out for certain mis-deeds compared to others.  The common denominator here is that people egregiously broke the rules, whether man-made and/or morally - and I would argue that in a small sense (yet again certainly not equating it to the degree of the Penn State situation of the actual acts) it was morally wrong for the Ohio State players to ignore the rules.  They knew what was right and wrong and agreed to that when they signed on.  Just my additional thoughts on this.  Yet, you are right in that the Penn State situation is horrifying and very, very sad for everyone, but especially the victims.

[formerd3db]

sflzman:
Understandable, although I am not sure (i.e. puzzled) as to why the College would keep both sets of these situations from being publically known (also, I was unaware of a "Cole suspension", although obviously I would not be since it was kept "in house" as you mention and I nor others are not associated with the College).  On the other hand, I guess it is a private institution as opposed to a state university.  Were it the latter, you can be assurred public disclosure would have occurred as I believe it is legally mandated.

I guess Alma had better win this Saturday, although it sounds like that might not be enough to save the job for Cole.  I hope that whatever happens (if anything does but also please understand that I'm not saying it should either), that it is handled with class and I knowing the people I do up at your place, I can't imagine it wouldn't be.

[raideralley]

Let's remember what Tressel did for a second before people start dismissing his little problem as not significant  (by comparison obvious).  He LIED to the NCAA 3 times about players eligibility, he didn't even go to his AD when he learned of a problem, he clearly and flagrantly violated NCAA rules.  He didn't get fired because some dudes were getting free ink.  He was fired (sorry allowed to honorably retire  ) because he lied to his employer and the NCAA.  It took OSU 6 months of doing the happy bear dance around the issue to finally come to the conclusion they do something other than nothing. 

Either way, the way the higher ups at these two institutions have handled both situations has been embarrassing for everyone.


In the bad analogies department, a homicide is still a homicide even if the person didn't kill as many as the serial killer down the block. 

Listen what Ohio st did was wrong and it really put a blemish on the university but to try and compare "tatoo gate" and the situation at Penn St is ludicrous!!!

Im not sure I quite understand your analogy, but the penn st situation is like a homicide. The ohio st situation is like petty theft.

raideralley:
In essence, I whole heartedly agree with you.  However, for some, if you consider the "faith based" aspect, in the eyes God, any and all sins are equal.  Of course, in our human society, obviously, there are degrees of this as evidenced by the punishment rendered out for certain mis-deeds compared to others.  The common denominator here is that people egregiously broke the rules, whether man-made and/or morally - and I would argue that in a small sense (yet again certainly not equating it to the degree of the Penn State situation of the actual acts) it was morally wrong for the Ohio State players to ignore the rules.  They knew what was right and wrong and agreed to that when they signed on.  Just my additional thoughts on this.  Yet, you are right in that the Penn State situation is horrifying and very, very sad for everyone, but especially the victims.

good post formerd3lb!!!

What both ohio st and penn st did were both wrong!!! Its why I love d3!!! We never have to put up with this kind of disgusting stuff, that happens at these division 1 schools! If this kind of thing can happen at penn st, it could happen at any other division 1 school.

[DBQ1965]

Let's remember what Tressel did for a second before people start dismissing his little problem as not significant  (by comparison obvious).  He LIED to the NCAA 3 times about players eligibility, he didn't even go to his AD when he learned of a problem, he clearly and flagrantly violated NCAA rules.  He didn't get fired because some dudes were getting free ink.  He was fired (sorry allowed to honorably retire  ) because he lied to his employer and the NCAA.  It took OSU 6 months of doing the happy bear dance around the issue to finally come to the conclusion they do something other than nothing. 

Either way, the way the higher ups at these two institutions have handled both situations has been embarrassing for everyone.

Trying to rate which situations are worse than others is part of what gets folk into these messes in the first place!


In the bad analogies department, a homicide is still a homicide even if the person didn't kill as many as the serial killer down the block. 

Listen what Ohio st did was wrong and it really put a blemish on the university but to try and compare "tatoo gate" and the situation at Penn St is ludicrous!!!

Im not sure I quite understand your analogy, but the penn st situation is like a homicide. The ohio st situation is like petty theft.

[hopewatcher]

Welcome to raideralley from another recent newcomer....

I think I am generally on board with formerd3db in many regards on this topic (virtual +k).....
Pesonally, I can't get into a discussion about which school is 'more' wrong (Penn State, Ohio State, SMU, school/situation of your choice).....These things shouldn't happen....when they come out the School, NCAA, and legal system will deal with the appropriately (I know...don't yell at me...I'm aware that it took 10+ years at Penn State)....but its a no win agrument fpr me...there are alot of good point and perspectives .....but, ultimatley, the good Lord will pass judgement and I don't have to....(I don't mean to offend anybody by getting spiritual here, but I guess thats what you get from a fan and the parent of a player at a faith based school) ..my energy tends to go into focusing on prayer and support for the healing and peace for the victims, for the people who get stuck with the stressful, no-win task of cleaning up the mess, for the people affected unfairly as 'collatoral damage' and for the legitimate repentence and repair of the guity......Its a bad deal all the way around in every case usually involving smart people that ought to know better.....

I agree with raideralley....(would +k if I could)...This ongoing (over and over) story involving DI programs is getting old....this is why I have learned to love DIII.....at one point I had the dream of my son being a D I player...It didn't work out......and now I am glad about that...he's playing a games he loves...is having some success....he is (and being coached by folks who are) focused on preparing for life spitually, academically, and socially and playing competitive football with success as a team the goal.....and being, and being around good people......that's what is important.....It seems like the money, the fame, the media, all of the external pressures in 'big time' athletics is creating a collection of behaviors that are contrary to everything that I think athletics are supposed to be all about....The NCAA and legal systems can't write enough rules or building a big enough enforcement system to combat that.....I don't have an answer, but its broke....I like watch DI sports, but wish it didn't have all of the baggage around it that it currently does...and now I'm glad we are where we are at he school we're at, with the people that are there with us.....     

[hopewatcher]

I don't know anything about what is going on at Alma from a coaching change perspective, other than what I read here...but, it has always occurred to me that the AD being the offensive coordinator has got to complicate things if an involuntary head coaching change took place.....from a decision making standpoint, from a span of change standpoint (does the OC change too), from a hiring a new coach standpoint or even who evaluates the Head Coach...this would be further complicated at the moment, by the AD/OC son's being the leader and engine for the offense....interesting.....probably works well and is healthy for all when things are going well....and complicated when there is a problem......and, I'm guessing that what is defined as success changes as the College's President of Board of Trustee's change...further complicating things....This may have been discussed before, but I curious about other's thoughts..... 

[adidas28]

Let's remember what Tressel did for a second before people start dismissing his little problem as not significant  (by comparison obvious).  He LIED to the NCAA 3 times about players eligibility, he didn't even go to his AD when he learned of a problem, he clearly and flagrantly violated NCAA rules.  He didn't get fired because some dudes were getting free ink.  He was fired (sorry allowed to honorably retire  ) because he lied to his employer and the NCAA.  It took OSU 6 months of doing the happy bear dance around the issue to finally come to the conclusion they do something other than nothing.

Either way, the way the higher ups at these two institutions have handled both situations has been embarrassing for everyone.


In the bad analogies department, a homicide is still a homicide even if the person didn't kill as many as the serial killer down the block. 

Listen what Ohio st did was wrong and it really put a blemish on the university but to try and compare "tatoo gate" and the situation at Penn St is ludicrous!!!

Im not sure I quite understand your analogy, but the penn st situation is like a homicide. The ohio st situation is like petty theft.

raideralley:
In essence, I whole heartedly agree with you.  However, for some, if you consider the "faith based" aspect, in the eyes God, any and all sins are equal.  Of course, in our human society, obviously, there are degrees of this as evidenced by the punishment rendered out for certain mis-deeds compared to others.  The common denominator here is that people egregiously broke the rules, whether man-made and/or morally - and I would argue that in a small sense (yet again certainly not equating it to the degree of the Penn State situation of the actual acts) it was morally wrong for the Ohio State players to ignore the rules.  They knew what was right and wrong and agreed to that when they signed on.  Just my additional thoughts on this.  Yet, you are right in that the Penn State situation is horrifying and very, very sad for everyone, but especially the victims.

I'm sorry but I am going to disagree with the "In the eyes of God any and all sins are equal". I am not an OSU or a Jim Tressel fan. But to compare alowing the rape of a child to lying about a young man getting a free tatoo and saying those two acts are equal has never been brought up in any church that I have ever attended or visited. One scars the lives of many innocent children and their families, the other only negatively effects Tressel and the players involved. sorry just my honest opinion.

[sflzman]

sflzman:
Understandable, although I am not sure (i.e. puzzled) as to why the College would keep both sets of these situations from being publically known (also, I was unaware of a "Cole suspension", although obviously I would not be since it was kept "in house" as you mention and I nor others are not associated with the College).  On the other hand, I guess it is a private institution as opposed to a state university.  Were it the latter, you can be assurred public disclosure would have occurred as I believe it is legally mandated.

I guess Alma had better win this Saturday, although it sounds like that might not be enough to save the job for Cole.  I hope that whatever happens (if anything does but also please understand that I'm not saying it should either), that it is handled with class and I knowing the people I do up at your place, I can't imagine it wouldn't be.

Yeah I just briefly heard about it during training camp some time, I have no idea what it was about, how long it was for, or how severe. Just what I heard....

[sac]

think some of  you missed the point.......both Tressel and Paterno apparently lacked the moral character to do what was right, instead of what protected them (along with the AD's and President's of both schools.  OSU's is a real clown show).

You think Paterno holds his job in 2002 if it goes public then? 

dismissing what Tressel did just because what Paterno did may be worse doesn't fly.

Let's not forget the dog and pony show that OSU put on in the weeks prior to the Sugar Bowl when they flat out lied to the NCAA about what they knew and when so their ineligible players could still play.  They went as far as making players sign documents stating they wouldn't go pro if they played in the Sugar Bowl.

Not to mention the farce OSU almost pulled off in the spring......bottom line is the men who most people expect to be held to high standards were out to protect themselves.  They both dropped the ball.

[adidas28]

think some of  you missed the point.......both Tressel and Paterno apparently lacked the moral character to do what was right, instead of what protected them (along with the AD's and President's of both schools.  OSU's is a real clown show).

You think Paterno holds his job in 2002 if it goes public then? 

dismissing what Tressel did just because what Paterno did may be worse doesn't fly.

Let's not forget the dog and pony show that OSU put on in the weeks prior to the Sugar Bowl when they flat out lied to the NCAA about what they knew and when so their ineligible players could still play.  They went as far as making players sign documents stating they wouldn't go pro if they played in the Sugar Bowl.

Not to mention the farce OSU almost pulled off in the spring......bottom line is the men who most people expect to be held to high standards were out to protect themselves.  They both dropped the ball.

You miss the point as well - I don't dismiss what either one of them did. I'm glad that Tre$$el is gone he got what he desrved, and yes the O$U president is a clown. He came across as holier than though just as paterno did. My post simply says that if the O$U thing came out now it would seem miniscule compared to the PSU scandal. As far anyone saying the the two case are similar, comparable, or the same in the eyes of the lord - I have one question for you. Tell me how you would feel if that was your child or grandchild. Don't say anything else just tell me that you would still see the two situations or sins as the equal.

[formerd3db]

adidas28:
I respect your opinion and I don't mean to be arrogant or crass here whatsoever.  Yet, if you are a true "believer", you will know/should know that the equivilency of sins is simply the truth - look it up in "The Instruction Book"!  Regardless, I agree with you and the others that both coaches being dismissed was the right thing to do.  Both men are men of "Faith", but they are human as we all obviously are and we all make mistakes - it is inevitable and not fun or pretty when any of us have to face the consequences either now (or later ). It's just too bad that these incidents will now be a major defining element of their careers.  Anyway, thanks for sharing your opinions on this.  Yes, I know there will be some people who will come on here and chide all of us for discussing all these situations (Penn State, Ohio State, Alma, etc., etc.) and calling for us to "get back to talking about the X's and O's ), however, this is relevent to football and that can't be denied. 

Hopewatcher:
Great post and I couldn't agree with you more.  There is more to it than "just the game".  Also, you should know (if you don't already), what you have gone through and the evolution of your opinion is exactly what former Hope College Head Football Coach Ray Smith conveyed to us all; he played at DI UCLA and while he had great success there, he came to the same conclusions as you and I; it just was in an earlier era/time frame than yours and mine.  I'll give you another +k when I can (time limit ). See you Sat?

sac:
I would add that some people in the media have been using the cliche of "lack of institutional control" in these situations.  Others would say that a more accurate description would be the "opposite" in one sense i.e. too much institutional control.  However, I think I agree with you that it is a failure of human judgement (or mis-judgement).

Raideralley:
Thanks!  Also, good to have you on our board.

[Mr. Ypsi]

The more I learn about the PSU tragedy, the madder I get.  McQueary did not even report the rape to Paterno until the NEXT day!  When I first heard 'grad assistant' witness, I pictured a perhaps intimidated 22-year-old.  McQueary was freakin' 28 years old and (in pictures I've seen) was HUGE for a former QB.  It is absolutely unfathomable to me that he did nothing to stop the rape (by a guy who was freakin' 58 years old!).

I am not a violent guy (partly because I am NOT big and don't like pain , partly just by nature), but I am at least 99% sure that I would have immediately attacked the rapist (followed, if still conscious , by a call to the cops).  One of my proudest moments growing up was the only real fight I've ever been in.  A neighborhood bully was hurting kids (far from adult supervision).  Being the second biggest kid around, I took him on.  He beat the crap out of me (d'oh!), but he never bothered me or my littler friends again.  (On that one occasion I can kind of grasp Sparky Anderson's immortal: "Pain don't hurt"! )

McQueary DID report the rape (albeit belatedly) so legally he is probably off the hook.  But that he did nothing to stop the rape (and waited so long to report it) is reprehensible.  If McQueary coaches on Saturday, PSU is dead to me.  Fire his pathetic a$$.

[sac]

I can see I'm doing a poor of conveying what I was trying to convey.  So moving on......

Anyone who loves college sports has been hit upside the head with a 2x4 with this.  So hard to grasp all of it.