FB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[formerd3db]

Rereading I seem to be contradicting myself so to clear up just in case.  Most times if I am not on the sidelines for games I rarely hear or the person next to me if they ask a question.   But when down on the sidelines it is different for me and I find that I more easily pick up on field talk and noise.  My focus is just as much on the game but field level I am not working so much on ignoring general crowd comments and so field noise comes through.  Didn't want it to read or seem that I was saying I rarely hear field noise and then go on to say that it can easily be heard.

Cousin Eddie:

I understand and know what you mean.  I think that many of us have experienced both of those different types of "atmospheres" that you describe between being on the sidelines and in the stands. 

Anyway, no hard feelings on the discussion we've had, even if we have differing opinions.  I know that we all are passionate about our teams and we relate our opinions and what we feel in responding to the games we see.  As has been said, emotions obviously can and often do overtake any of us at times whether we are fans, coaches or players.  I just want to encourage sportsmanship being promoted by all of us whether fans or coaches and especially the players regardless of which team that involves and particularly our own teams that we support. For the most part, I think such occurs, although there are always a few on any of our teams that forget that at times.

If you and your colleagues are attending Albion's game this weekend, I will look forward to your report summary and observations of the game.  As far as Hope, I don't know really anything about Rockford other than what some others have said in general regarding them not being a very good team.  Even if that is the case, no one should be taken for granted of course.  As I have mentioned and alluded to, despite this being a non-conference game for Hope, they need to regroup and a win would be nice heading into Homecoming the following week.

         

[Gregory Sager]

Regarding Mercyhurst (and Gannon in the same city of Erie), I could be wrong Gregory, however, I seem to recall that they were indeed DIII along with Gannon for a couple of years back in the late 1980's or early 1990's.  I will need to pull out from my collection of the annual NCAA Guidebook from those years to check for sure (if I still have those copies-I had kept them in a bin for a long time, although I think I may have thrown them out a couple of years ago).  I will try to check on that, although you may be right they were not DIII-I thought they were for a short time.

Mercyhurst went straight from NAIA to D2, and I can prove it. Check out the most recent men's basketball media guide of the Lakers here. Starting on page 21, the media guide outlines the history of Mercyhurst men's basketball, and in so doing also outlines the national affiliation history of the school. Through the 1980-81 school year Mercyhurst was NAIA, and the following year it moved to D2.

Gannon was never D3, either. My uncle went there in the late '70s and early '80s, and it was D2 during his student days. It started out in the NCAA College Division (precursor to D2 and D3), moved to the NAIA in the '60s, then came back to the NCAA College Division and was a charter member of D2 when the College Division was split in 1974. Here's the most recent men's basketball media guide of the Golden Knights. On page 24 is their men's basketball tournament history. As you can see, the Golden Knights were in the first-ever D2 men's basketball tournament, beating Hartwick (now, ironically, a D3 member) and C.W. Post (now LIU Post), before losing to Assumption. Gannon's been an almost-constant participant in the D2 men's basketball tournament ever since.

[formerd3db]

Regarding Mercyhurst (and Gannon in the same city of Erie), I could be wrong Gregory, however, I seem to recall that they were indeed DIII along with Gannon for a couple of years back in the late 1980's or early 1990's.  I will need to pull out from my collection of the annual NCAA Guidebook from those years to check for sure (if I still have those copies-I had kept them in a bin for a long time, although I think I may have thrown them out a couple of years ago).  I will try to check on that, although you may be right they were not DIII-I thought they were for a short time.

Mercyhurst went straight from NAIA to D2, and I can prove it. Check out the most recent men's basketball media guide of the Lakers here. Starting on page 21, the media guide outlines the history of Mercyhurst men's basketball, and in so doing also outlines the national affiliation history of the school. Through the 1980-81 school year Mercyhurst was NAIA, and the following year it moved to D2.

Gannon was never D3, either. My uncle went there in the late '70s and early '80s, and it was D2 during his student days. It started out in the NCAA College Division (precursor to D2 and D3), moved to the NAIA in the '60s, then came back to the NCAA College Division and was a charter member of D2 when the College Division was split in 1974. Here's the most recent men's basketball media guide of the Golden Knights. On page 24 is their men's basketball tournament history. As you can see, the Golden Knights were in the first-ever D2 men's basketball tournament, beating Hartwick (now, ironically, a D3 member) and C.W. Post (now LIU Post), before losing to Assumption. Gannon's been an almost-constant participant in the D2 men's basketball tournament ever since.

You are incorrect on this one as far as Mercyhurst is concerned.  They were indeed classified as DIII in football for some time.  Check out the  Mercyhurst Magazine Autumn 1986, Vol. 5, No. 1, which is (at least was at that time) the official magazine of Mercyhurst University (Erie, PA).  Athletics is reviewed on page 13, including football and they were definitely DIII at that time.  The football program was started in 1981 (check their official website also for all-time season results).  They elevated to DII around the 1990's and joined the GLIAC before leaving to join the PA DII conference along with Gannon (although they were playing a mixture of DII and DIII schools with some NAIA mixed in years before then, yet primarily DIII in the 1980's).  So they were certainly classified officially in DIII for some years Gregory.

As to Gannon, I believe you.  I only said I wasn't sure about them, I thought they may have been. They were obviously DII when Alma was playing them in the late 1990's.    Yet, as to Mercyhurst, I was quite sure I recalled seeing them listed as DIII in the NCAA Guidebook back then. 

[formerd3db]

RE:  Mercyhurst-additional documentation for NCAA membership.  If you check the Official NCAA Publications Annual Football Records Book, for example the 2008 edition (which is available on the internet), in the NCAA Div. III section, Statistical Trends section, p. 99, Mercyhurst is listed as a former member (football DIII) from 1982-1992.

[Gregory Sager]

I'm not sure how you expect me to look up a magazine that's not archived online . I have looked at the Mercyhurst football guide, and the game results from the '80s and into the '90s show that the Lakers were playing a mixed schedule of D1, D2, and D3 teams throughout that period, moving to a full D2 (and GLIAC) schedule for the '98 season.

It's possible that Mercyhurst was considered to be a D3 school for football purposes during that period. Several scholarship-level schools that did not offer football scholarships were classified as D3 for football prior to the rules changes that took effect in 1993 that forced D1 and D2 schools to classify their football teams within their respective divisions. That's why a couple of D1 schools (Dayton in 1980 and 1989, and Wagner in 1987) and a D2 school (West Georgia in 1982) won the Stagg Bowl and were D3 champions. (Another school that was D2 at the time and later moved to D1, Towson, lost the Stagg Bowl to in 1976 to St. John's.)

But -- and this is the key point here -- those were not D3 schools. They were D1 and D2 schools that did not offer football scholarships, and were thus allowed to compete in the D3 football playoffs during that era, prior to the closing of that membership loophole in 1993. I think that the phrase in vogue for such D1 and D2 schools back then was "dropping down." Mercyhurst may have fallen into that category as well. If so, it was a D2 school that, apparently, was classified as D3 in football during the '80s. But that didn't make it a D3 member. It was, and is, a D2 school, as the men's basketball media guide clearly states.

[formerd3db]

I'm not sure how you expect me to look up a magazine that's not archived online . I have looked at the Mercyhurst football guide, and the game results from the '80s and into the '90s show that the Lakers were playing a mixed schedule of D1, D2, and D3 teams throughout that period, moving to a full D2 (and GLIAC) schedule for the '98 season.

It's possible that Mercyhurst was considered to be a D3 school for football purposes during that period. Several scholarship-level schools that did not offer football scholarships were classified as D3 for football prior to the rules changes that took effect in 1993 that forced D1 and D2 schools to classify their football teams within their respective divisions. That's why a couple of D1 schools (Dayton in 1980 and 1989, and Wagner in 1987) and a D2 school (West Georgia in 1982) won the Stagg Bowl and were D3 champions. (Another school that was D2 at the time and later moved to D1, Towson, lost the Stagg Bowl to in 1976 to St. John's.)

But -- and this is the key point here -- those were not D3 schools. They were D1 and D2 schools that did not offer football scholarships, and were thus allowed to compete in the D3 football playoffs during that era, prior to the closing of that membership loophole in 1993. I think that the phrase in vogue for such D1 and D2 schools back then was "dropping down." Mercyhurst may have fallen into that category as well. If so, it was a D2 school that, apparently, was classified as D3 in football during the '80s. But that didn't make it a D3 member. It was, and is, a D2 school, as the men's basketball media guide clearly states.

It is archived online. Strange you can't bring it up when I certainly can per Google.  Simply type in Mercyhurst Magazine, Fall 1986...or the specific link is as follows:  www.scribd.com/doc/59361178/Mercyhurst-Magazine-Fall-1986.  But you can also see this in the NCAA Football Records Book as I mentioned in my most recent post above.

In addition, you specifically said Mercyhurst was never DIII-I was always talking football for this discussion and specifically for  Mercyhurst, not other sports and you were the one that brought up basketball (which you are correct is DII).  I also already mentioned that they were playing a mixed schedule of DI, DII, DIII schools in football their early years in the 1980's up to the time they went DII in football (and I am very familiar with the history of the pre-"Dayton Rule" regarding the DI non-scholarship schools who were classified as DIII in football for those years you mention-Dayton dropped to DIII in football in 1977).  Regardless, the point is that Mercyhurst was definitely considered DIII NCAA in football and not "possibly" as you indicated in your sentence above for the years I mentioned and that are officially listed as such for the school by the Official NCAA records (and not NAIA).  You were talking about overall division classification, but I never said or indicated that; I clearly was talking football only.     

[sac]

I was in Erie, pa. 2 days ago. I win.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I was in Erie, pa. 2 days ago. I win.

I've never heard of being in Erie as a win.

[Pat Coleman]

I was in Erie, pa. 2 days ago. I win.

I've never heard of being in Erie as a win.

+1

[formerd3db]

I was in Erie, pa. 2 days ago. I win.

I've never heard of being in Erie as a win.

I was in Erie, pa. 2 days ago. I win.

I've never heard of being in Erie as a win.

+1

I was in Erie, pa. 2 days ago. I win.

sac, Mr. Ypsi and Pat:

Hilarious, you guys!  +1 for all.   Actually, Erie is not all that bad of a town.  It has some history (dating to the French & Indian War and Pontiac Uprising days) and the new stadiums at both Mercyhurst and Gannon are very nice.  Also, the older city owned Memorial Stadium, where both schools used to play their home football games (and still do on occasion) is nice.  The latter is quite a big stadium (actual bowl stadium with permanent stands) and is a great venue for a game.  Yet, again, both school's newer on-campus stadiums are nice and actually a better venue for the students and fans at the respective campuses.

Hope you all have a great weekend and enjoy whatever games you might be attending this weekend.  So far, the weather reports seem to be okay, however, we all know that can change within each hour!

[D306]

I seem top recall that Butler was D1 at one time and removed some of their stands so they could remove them selves from D1 yet in basketball they are D1 and extremely relevant. Albion had a long standing series of games with Butler not long ago as I recall.

GVSU is a massive school bigger than many of the current D1 schools they choose to stay in DII

I think schools choose based on scholarship costs and also the fact that title 9 would require equal amount of Schollies for female sports as well.

Title 9, the cost, and competitive opportunities or school attendance opportunities are a huge deciding factor.
If we were to review attendance at several D1 school the number is staggering how low it is and the cost per person per seat must be reviewed versus the benefit in attendance or implied reputation of school

MIAA and many DIII schools must continue to focus on the value of the education the personal attention and opportunities as the value prop. I believe many offer a superior education and opportunity for students, throw athletics in their and educational based awards to reduce cost is the path for many into these schools.

I did not make it to the Albion / Hope game as I wanted to, received a call from a buddy to attend NW vs. Wisky to watch his son play great game for NW so I made the drive around the Lake ( great coaching staff pulling high level academic students into NW and putting a strong team on the field ) By the way still defrosting and trying to dry off it is cold in that stadium on the lake with rain and wind blowing in.

[formerd3db]

D306:

Good to hear from you and returning to post on this board once in a while as you have done.  That was a great NW game to watch-I caught much of the second half after returning from the Albion/Hope game.  That seems to be a great atmosphere to watch a game (after U of Mich, my favorite Big Ten team is NW).  At is also nice to hear about your friend's son playing for NW. 

You would have enjoyed the atmosphere at Albion for another close/exciting game. Weather cooperated and it as compfortable, great fall colors, nice larger crowd for their Homecoming-in all, a traditional and enjoyable fall football afternoon (except for the outcome for me and colleagues whose team is Hope, of course! )

As you mentioned, Butler did redo the Butler Bowl, essentially maintaining the bowl configuration for the most part, but constructing new permanent home stands and, like many other schools, constructed student apartments on the other side.  That maintains the the enclosed look, allows some to watch from there (although I wonder what the ticket paying fans think about that? ). I do remember those Butler/Albion match-ups just a few years ago.  Butler still plays an occasional DIII team, even though they are DI non-scholarship and now eligible for the FCS championship playoffs via their Pioneer League.

You have also shared some of the very issues that are a challenge for schools who want to compete at the DII scholarship level (although many DIII schools are also faced with the Title IX issue to varying degrees if/when they are deciding whether or not to add certain sports).

You mentioned Grand Valley.  Obviously, they are very comfortable at the DII level, yet they had over 15,000 in attendance for their game against Ohio Dominican last month, which certainly dwarfs some of the DI schools. Mr. Ypsi and I along with others have discussed that attendance topic on many occasions here regarding some DI schools i.e. Eastern Michigan (there are other DI's in the FCS this would apply to also) and some DII schools having less attendance at some games as compared to many of the DIII schools. I've noted that even Hope and other MIAA member colleges have outdrawn an Eastern Michigan/Western Michigan game on some occasions in the recent past and often many of the DII games as well on other occasions.  That, however, can depend on a specific game, of course and there are so many varied factors that are involved in the overall equation.

     

[Gregory Sager]

In addition, you specifically said Mercyhurst was never DIII-I was always talking football for this discussion and specifically for  Mercyhurst, not other sports and you were the one that brought up basketball (which you are correct is DII).

No, not just basketball. Every sport in which Mercyhurst participated except for football was D2. And that's the point. Football is, in many respects an outlier among college sports in a lot of ways. The old "dropping down" policy of the NCAA was another example of that. And Mercyhurst's football program was an outlier of the school's D2 status.

I also already mentioned that they were playing a mixed schedule of DI, DII, DIII schools in football their early years in the 1980's up to the time they went DII in football (and I am very familiar with the history of the pre-"Dayton Rule" regarding the DI non-scholarship schools who were classified as DIII in football for those years you mention-Dayton dropped to DIII in football in 1977).  Regardless, the point is that Mercyhurst was definitely considered DIII NCAA in football and not "possibly" as you indicated in your sentence above for the years I mentioned and that are officially listed as such for the school by the Official NCAA records (and not NAIA).  You were talking about overall division classification, but I never said or indicated that; I clearly was talking football only.   

Actually, that wasn't clear at all. You were talking about enrollment sizes at various schools, not about football. That's why I brought up Mercyhurst's D2 status in the first place.

Again, this isn't just semantics. Mercyhurst was, and is, a D2 school that played at the D2 level in everything except for football during a certain period of time -- just as Dayton and Wagner were D1 schools that played at the D1 level in everything but football. But now that I know that you were just talking about football classifications, we're on the same page.

[Gregory Sager]

I was in Erie, pa. 2 days ago. I win.

I've never heard of being in Erie as a win.

"Dreary Erie" ... an unfortunate, but quite apropos, nickname.

I seem top recall that Butler was D1 at one time and removed some of their stands so they could remove them selves from D1 yet in basketball they are D1 and extremely relevant. Albion had a long standing series of games with Butler not long ago as I recall.

As formerd3db mentioned, Butler is D1 in all sports. The NCAA now forbids "dropping down," and has since 1993.

The only NCAA schools that are still allowed to have a team or two compete in a division other than the one in which the school is based are the D3 schools that were grandfathered in when the NCAA declared that D3 schools could no longer have programs in which they classified at the scholarship levels. For example, Colorado College is still allowed to play D1 men's hockey and women's soccer; Hartwick is D1 in men's soccer and women's water polo; and Johns Hopkins is D1 in men's and women's lacrosse. Of course, if the NCAA does not offer a championship in D1 or D2, schools from the other scholarship division are allowed to compete at that alternate level.

[formerd3db]

Gregory:

Yes, you and I are finally on the same page!  Actually, when I was talking about enrollments of the schools, it was always in the context of football for the discussion, my friend, since the discussion started out as to why/how the classifications were chosen by schools for football by vandyboy, who initiated the discussion.  Thus, in that regard, it doesn't matter that a school is classified as in a particular division for their athletic programs with the exception of one other sport i.e. football.  Since we were talking about football, the question was then in relation to football classification only.  This is a football board and while we all certainly do occasionally talk about other sports in relation to our DIII schools here on the boards.

Again, the discussion here was completely for football and the respective classification for a school(s) for that.  I can see where you may have thought I wasn't clear on that.  Just the same way as I wasn't clear on your statements that Mercyhurst was never DIII-as I mentioned, you were talking about overall classification-I and the others were talking about football classification.  In the future, I will be sure to try and relate specifically and what limited what I'm responding to on a particular discussion.

Thanks for the additional info about Butler and in regards to the "grandfathering clause" for those of our younger friends on the boards who might not be aware of that.  I'm sure you can remember as I do also the situation that occurred via Dayton "way back then" that helped lead to those changes in the rules by the NCAA!   It was an interesting time, wouldn't you agree?!!!

Good luck to your NPU tomorrow!