FB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[CometAlum]

I think it can be very helpful to have a JV schedual. You can, as I like to say, guesstimate what your talant will be like in two years (maybe sooner for certain players). But there are a couple of problems, first, the evaluation comes against competition that isn't "developed" yet. They are the same as they are just with a diffrent color jersey( assuming they are not transfers from DI orDII). .Second, there just aren't enough coaches to coach 85+ players. Most MIAA programs have aporox. 9-10 coaches. I cannot speak for other schools, but outside of installation (class) many underclassman do not get proper coaching due to lack of coaches. Third, they are used as the scout team and do not get run thru the plays they need to know, but are trying to recreate what the next opponets is doing. So kids get fustrated when they are either not playing, getting quality reps, or getting any snaps during practice. It gets especially difficult when schools are not winning because the young players feel they could do better.

[Diezel1]

It is very difficult to keep younger guys around for all four years.  At Trine, we would bring in 80+ freshmen a year and maybe 10-15 stay for their senior year.  Numerous players drop out during camp because "college football is not for them" or various other reasons.  Also, kids transfer or flat out fail out of school.  Serious injuries also occur, which you can never account for.  But, playing a JV schedule is important because it gives these kids a chance to play against other teams and get a chance to show they can play.  I'm not sure how it works at other schools, but our coaches did film JV games and did watch it to evaluate those players.  Our coaches kept the play calling at the JV level simple so that everyone who does play should know those plays.  I think success of the program is the overall key to keeping more freshmen for all four years.  Winning solves a lot of problems.  But, like CometAlum said, if the team is struggling younger players get upset because they feel like they can do better than who is playing and that can force people to leave

[Raider 68]

It is very difficult to keep younger guys around for all four years.  At Trine, we would bring in 80+ freshmen a year and maybe 10-15 stay for their senior year.  Numerous players drop out during camp because "college football is not for them" or various other reasons.  Also, kids transfer or flat out fail out of school.  Serious injuries also occur, which you can never account for.  But, playing a JV schedule is important because it gives these kids a chance to play against other teams and get a chance to show they can play.  I'm not sure how it works at other schools, but our coaches did film JV games and did watch it to evaluate those players.  Our coaches kept the play calling at the JV level simple so that everyone who does play should know those plays.  I think success of the program is the overall key to keeping more freshmen for all four years.  Winning solves a lot of problems.  But, like CometAlum said, if the team is struggling younger players get upset because they feel like they can do better than who is playing and that can force people to leave

If Trine is a good model for MIAA, then the other programs need to build on that approach. Many other schools have used the Mount Union strategy and have been successful!

[DadofBashWarrior..]

What is the scoop on Hope College for the coming season...Do they return many starters and what about the recruiting class?

I have a daughter there and was able to attend the Hope Wheaton game last year...and listened to a couple games online...was a very tough season for them...

They had to be the best 0-5 team in the country at that point as they played Wheaton very well until late in the game...it seemed to just get away from them...

[Raider 68]

What is the scoop on Hope College for the coming season...Do they return many starters and what about the recruiting class?

I have a daughter there and was able to attend the Hope Wheaton game last year...and listened to a couple games online...was a very tough season for them...

They had to be the best 0-5 team in the country at that point as they played Wheaton very well until late in the game...it seemed to just get away from them...

Former 3db is a regular poster on this board. He is also a Hope alum and former player, so he is most knowledgeable about Hope!

[Uncle Rico]

It is very difficult to keep younger guys around for all four years.  At Trine, we would bring in 80+ freshmen a year and maybe 10-15 stay for their senior year.  

Trine will have 25+ seniors this year, if I am not mistaken.  I remember during Coach Lands first season there were only about 6-8 seniors.  

[Diezel1]

It is very difficult to keep younger guys around for all four years.  At Trine, we would bring in 80+ freshmen a year and maybe 10-15 stay for their senior year.  

Trine will have 25+ seniors this year, if I am not mistaken.  I remember during Coach Lands first season there were only about 6-8 seniors.  

Actually Uncle Rico, I don't think we even had 6 seniors that year.

[Raider 68]

It is very difficult to keep younger guys around for all four years.  At Trine, we would bring in 80+ freshmen a year and maybe 10-15 stay for their senior year. 

Trine will have 25+ seniors this year, if I am not mistaken.  I remember during Coach Lands first season there were only about 6-8 seniors. 

How many of those Trine seniors are starters and/or part of the 2-deep depth chart?

[Uncle Rico]

 How many of those Trine seniors are starters and/or part of the 2-deep depth chart?
[/quote]

Just based on last years roster, my guesstimate is that there may be at least 9 starters this season that will be seniors (they were starters last year as juniors).  It looks like there may be at least 8 starters that will be juniors (they were starters last year as sophomores).  

The coaching staff does not bother to consult me (smart move on their part   ), so I am not too up to date on the depth charts.  They have been attracting some very good players and it is possible some underclassmen could crack the starting lineup.  This will be the most experienced team that Trine has had since I have been following them.  

On a side note, their preseason rankings are anywhere from #5 to #22.  They finished #17 last year and I think this team will be even better, for whatever that is worth, based on the specific players that are returning and their experience level.

[Raider 68]

How many of those Trine seniors are starters and/or part of the 2-deep depth chart?

Just based on last years roster, my guesstimate is that there may be at least 9 starters this season that will be seniors (they were starters last year as juniors).  It looks like there may be at least 8 starters that will be juniors (they were starters last year as sophomores).   

The coaching staff does not bother to consult me (smart move on their part    ), so I am not too up to date on the depth charts.  They have been attracting some very good players and it is possible some underclassmen could crack the starting lineup.  This will be the most experienced team that Trine has had since I have been following them. 

On a side note, their preseason rankings are anywhere from #5 to #22.  They finished #17 last year and I think this team will be even better, for whatever that is worth, based on the specific players that are returning and their experience level.


[/quote]

Some schools publish 2-deep charts as part of the normal season summaries. I did not see one for Trine, so I asked the question.

Thanks for your response!

[LetItRain]

Trine has 28 seniors returning this fall.  We also have 8 starters returning on each side of the ball.  This doesn't mean 8 seniors on each side of the ball (which is always a possiblity), but 8 starters.  Like Uncle Rico I'm not privy to the depth chart info, especially since I'm sure it has not been established at this time.  You never know what will happen during camp that will affect the depth chart - what freshman have been recruited?  Who really stepped it up during the offseason?  Etc...  You just never know.  Trine players return to campus on 8/10 and their first game is on Thursday, 9/2 vs. Manchester College at home (7:30 PM kickoff). 

I also agree with Uncle Rico that the Trine team this fall will likely be the best team Coach Land & his staff have fielded yet.  It's going to be another exciting year and I'll be at every game to watch.

[Raider 68]

Trine has 28 seniors returning this fall.  We also have 8 starters returning on each side of the ball.  This doesn't mean 8 seniors on each side of the ball (which is always a possiblity), but 8 starters.  Like Uncle Rico I'm not privy to the depth chart info, especially since I'm sure it has not been established at this time.  You never know what will happen during camp that will affect the depth chart - what freshman have been recruited?  Who really stepped it up during the offseason?  Etc...  You just never know.  Trine players return to campus on 8/10 and their first game is on Thursday, 9/2 vs. Manchester College at home (7:30 PM kickoff).  

I also agree with Uncle Rico that the Trine team this fall will likely be the best team Coach Land & his staff have fielded yet.  It's going to be another exciting year and I'll be at every game to watch.

So this fall should be a great one for Trine, best chance to win the conference, maybe get into the later rounds of the playoffs and most important, build  for the future. With that many senior starters, the key will be to get their back-ups some PT. +k

[formerd3db]

Hello colleagues.  I have been away on vacation the past 9-10 days with no access to a computer (which is good in some aspects I'm sure most of you will agree with me on that).  Anyway, great discussions and comments all of you.  Some of the best our board has had in a long time, particularly for the off-season/pre-season time period.

Anyway, I'll just try to reply i.e. add my perspective to some of the questions/issues you all discussed and asked, although you all covered it quite well IMO.

RF and CometAlum had some great insight into the JV programs.  I agree that those are essential to having a good solid program, espescially in this era for the DIII programs (and perhaps some DII's if they have those).  It is almost as if college football has gone back to this idea, similar to what the "big-time" DI schools used to do when freshmen were not eligible for varsity play.  As you all have said, it does provide some playing time for the underclassmen, some "live-lay" if you will, so they don't become complacent during the "hum -drum" of practice curing the course of the season when they are not getting any PT during the varsity games.  Moreover, coaches do evaluate players during those games - I know at several schools that players are told that if they do well during those games, it can provide a steppingpstone opportunity for them to make the traveling squad, for example on special teams and/or s a back-up - this is particularly important when injuries occur.  The younger players need to be ready to "step-up" as their opportunity may be only one play away dure to an injury - obvivously no one wishes that for anyone ahead of them at their position, yet we all know that injures are naturally inherent to the game.

The one aspect, which you all pointed out as well, is that on the ohter hand, underclassmen can become disappointed in not making that step up to the varsity druing those first two years.  While the JV program serves a great purpose, certainly if one doesn't get some PT at least on special teams by their junior year, IMO, they need to re-evaluate their situation and decide if they really want to continue or not.  For some, that is not a problem because they love the game, want to be a part of the team, and deep down, they know that some of their fomrer hs teammates don't even get the opportunity they had.  Other reasons, as has been mentioned, are that some players (yes, even the top ones in some cases) get tired and decide they just don't want to devote their extra time to playing football - and...there is nothing wrong with that if one makes such a decsion.  Yet, for those that stay, even if one never becomes a starter, there can be lasting memories in many ways - I know many people who feel that way about their careers when they look back on those.  I guess it comes down tomaking your own decision.  I know for me, I loved the college game and was determined to stick it out for myself for all four years no matter what.  Fortunately, it turned out wonderful for me, for which I am very grateful, humbled and feel blessed.

One final aspect I might add is again related to the injury aspect.  I know that can certainly be a problem for some JV programs.  When some of those players get injured, it can put a crunch on the varisty team in some situations - an example is I recall one years in recent years at one of the MIAA schools, varsity starters on the offensive and defensive lines got injured and when they needed to go to some of the underclassmen for those positions, they didn't have enough because of injuries there - and that also affected the JV program having to be canclled to preserved "bodies" for the varisty.  Yet again, if one's school has well-over the "100's" coming out for the team with big recruiting classes as has been mentioned, that tends not to be a problem overall, with the exception of the bad-luck situatioan it is for those individuals who get hurt on JV (if that makes sense ).

So in summary, I agree with all of you that a JV program is essential to the majortiy of the DIII programs - exception would be some of the smallest DIII schools who are only able to field under a hundred anyway.

P.S. Having been away, I haven't had a chance to "get the scoop" on HOpe's incoming class and/or visions for the upcoming season - I did tact a couple of coaches but we haven't connected as yet.  When I do, I'll try to post csome comments here.  But to answer the one question that was asked by DadoBash, I will say that the past two years of 3-7 has not been charactersitic of Hope College Football - at last no since the '70's overall.  You have to go back before then to find some of the less achieving teams as far as the W-L column.  Up until the Ray Smith era, Hope's overall all-time record was under .500.  Hopefully 9pun intented ) this season will see a return to the winning ways.  Of course, we shall see if that is to occur.

Sorry for the long post, but I guess I made up for my abseenteeism! 

[formerd3db]

CometAlum:

Thanks for the "inside info" as to what some of the challenges and problems were at your Olivet the past couple of years.  Many people were wondering as you said as to why your team didn't repeat a champs or at least be right up there consistently thereafter.  Personally, from what I know (and now in addition to what you shared with us), I don't think it was all the fault of the coaching staff.

As I'm sure you know, Olivet has had a history of "the problem of retention" of players - this goes way back to my own era in the MIAA.  I had several friends from high school (both some of my own former h.s. teammates and those who we played against) go on to play for Olivet.  They'd bring in big freshman classes (50 or so), however, those students would be gone in two years and they had to start all over again.  Part of the problem/challenge was no stability in the coaching staff- changing head coaches and assistant coaches often doesn't help.  Part of it was also perhaps the type of students the college was trying to attract - of course, tremendous strides have been made in the past two decades at Olivet as you well know with regards to the academic programs and, certainly the athletic programs as well.

All that being said, when you have players opting out for a variety of reasons as you mention (whether personal issues, academic issues and/or the playing time aspects) that obviously has a negative affect on everyone, regardless of how much effort both the players and coaching staff are giving.  Anyway, hopefully, Olivet can make some major improvement this year, although as you mentioned previously, if they win 3-4 games, IMO, that will be a very good start/step in the right direction.  

[Raider 68]

Do all the MIAA schools have football JV teams, and how many games do they play each year?