FB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[formerd3db]

sac:

Good inquiry/question.  I have not heard anything about any plans for an eventual stadium or anything in front of DeVos.  I would be quite surprised if they did.  It has always been my understanding that, indeed, as you mention, that area is to always be preserved as "green space" in part, because they want the eastern entrance to Hope College to be focused as it is.  By putting something there, it would take away from the picturesque facade of DeVos; in addition, I heard that the eventual plans were to add additional brick pillar and wrought iron fencing on the side of DeVos i.e. west side of the street as they have now along Fairbanks Ave in front of the soccer/lacrosse stadium and athletic fields along with a "Hope College" iron arch on pillars on an angle at the light/intersection i.e. on DeVos side, similar to the historic one on the other side of campus in front of historic Graves Hall.  While the "green area" is large enough to have the alumni soccer and alumni lacrosse games going on at the same time during Homecoming Saturdays AM as they have had of recent, I don't think that area would be ideal or condusive to placing the football stadium there.  Again, it would look too crowded and take away from the DeVos facade and I also think that parking would be a major problem.  They don't have enough at DeVos now, but while the could buy up more of the remaining homes across the street, I personally would hate to see some of those historic homes torn down, even though though they are small, many are rentals to college students or otherwise.  IMO, it would take away from the "historic atmosphere" in that regard, but.  on the other hand, time marches on and sometimes, changes are good.

So while I could be entirely wrong, I doubt that the fb stadium, if a new one is ever built again, will be placed there - at least I hope not - no pun intended  .  IMO, Hope needs to buy Holland Municipal Stadium - they and the City really need to put their differences aside and work out a deal and...we need to get synthetic turf for the stadium and all the fb and soccer practice fields (the natural grass ones have become more than dangerous and that is simply the truth).  Besides, as I've discussed, the current stadium sits right in the middle of all Hope College owned athletic facilities.  I have been told the City and the College have talked about some lannd swaps as part of such a deal, but again they have not, so far, been able to come to an agreement.  And finally, as far as the $ is concerned, hyou and I both know that Hope College will have no problem in getting that raised and/or donars.  Anyway, that is my $0.02 worth!  

[sac]

D3DB great posts.  I think the Alma kicker did have something on the line but it was the 2nd or 3rd game of the season so there was no pressing reason to send him out. Either way it was our responsibility to stop and it made for a great rivalry I loved playing Alma.

The miaa stadium I liked the most was Alma but the drive up there sucked it was our longest road trip. We always played up there early in the year sometimes homecoming so the stadium was usually full which is a nice thing for a normal d3 game!  Having played high school at a big D1  school in Ohio where you were used to 8k on a Friday night the normal 1-2k for a d3 game was depressing. Oliver was a dump pre renovation. One year our locker room was a tent with a port a potty and the visitor stands held 15 people

The drive to Alma is a lot better now that the oil refinery is closed, imagine driving all that way and the first thing you smell is Galveston, Texas.  Its been years and years, but I always hated driving past Alma on the way up North because it smelled so bad.




formerd3db:

Waiting for the City of Holland to do something is the reason we have DeVos Fieldhouse.   The longer this goes, the easier it will be to get something done on their own.

[sflzman]

3) Alma - great view of the campus, although only minor aspect is that I wish they would have kept it in the same location as the original Balke an not switch with the former baseball field (but essentially they've been playing on this field since 1929); minor problem is that sun, wind and rain is in your face coming directly from the southwest/west; another negative is that the front row walkway is non-existent i.e. front row fans have to move out of your way to walk - not sure how that one got past the building codes; press box is very spacious for coaching and media, etc, but another negative there is that windows can't be opened and no air conditioning so fans have to be used in the early season games and...the film crew has to film on the roof being exposed to the weather. But overall, a nice stadium - they have the synthetic turf, they have kept the old college iron stadium name arch, matched it with oanother, brick and wrought iron fencing give it a great feel of that old college tradition, and "Among the Pines" which Alma's campus is noted for.

The one that has been complained about many times because of the hardness...that turf is terrible.

There is a new turf coming in this year that is supposed to to be the top quality. The original designs showed for maroon turf, but it did not get accepted by the President. The new turf is supposed to look good though. It looks similar to the Rutgers field, but with colored enzones and an "A" not an "R"


Here's a bigger view of the picture: http://mapmaker.rutgers.edu/rutgers/AN/stadium.jpg

[sflzman]

D3DB great posts.  I think the Alma kicker did have something on the line but it was the 2nd or 3rd game of the season so there was no pressing reason to send him out. Either way it was our responsibility to stop and it made for a great rivalry I loved playing Alma.

The miaa stadium I liked the most was Alma but the drive up there sucked it was our longest road trip. We always played up there early in the year sometimes homecoming so the stadium was usually full which is a nice thing for a normal d3 game!  Having played high school at a big D1  school in Ohio where you were used to 8k on a Friday night the normal 1-2k for a d3 game was depressing. Oliver was a dump pre renovation. One year our locker room was a tent with a port a potty and the visitor stands held 15 people

The drive to Alma is a lot better now that the oil refinery is closed, imagine driving all that way and the first thing you smell is Galveston, Texas.  Its been years and years, but I always hated driving past Alma on the way up North because it smelled so bad.




formerd3db:

Waiting for the City of Holland to do something is the reason we have DeVos Fieldhouse.   The longer this goes, the easier it will be to get something done on their own.

But with the oil refinery goes half Alma's population, and any chance at winning a state championship in a major sport

[Raider 68]

Formerd3db,

This is any easy question for you, but why would the city of Holland have a
Municipal Stadium and not Hope? I looked on the campus map and saw the DeVos fieldhouse (Impressive). Some of the Hope alums(deeper pockets) need to get with the city and make them an offer they cannot refuse!
You should lead the charge!!!

[sac]

3) Alma - great view of the campus, although only minor aspect is that I wish they would have kept it in the same location as the original Balke an not switch with the former baseball field (but essentially they've been playing on this field since 1929); minor problem is that sun, wind and rain is in your face coming directly from the southwest/west; another negative is that the front row walkway is non-existent i.e. front row fans have to move out of your way to walk - not sure how that one got past the building codes; press box is very spacious for coaching and media, etc, but another negative there is that windows can't be opened and no air conditioning so fans have to be used in the early season games and...the film crew has to film on the roof being exposed to the weather. But overall, a nice stadium - they have the synthetic turf, they have kept the old college iron stadium name arch, matched it with oanother, brick and wrought iron fencing give it a great feel of that old college tradition, and "Among the Pines" which Alma's campus is noted for.

The one that has been complained about many times because of the hardness...that turf is terrible.

There is a new turf coming in this year that is supposed to to be the top quality. The original designs showed for maroon turf, but it did not get accepted by the President. The new turf is supposed to look good though. It looks similar to the Rutgers field, but with colored enzones and an "A" not an "R"


Here's a bigger view of the picture: http://mapmaker.rutgers.edu/rutgers/AN/stadium.jpg

It will look better on TV than the maroon field would have.

[formerd3db]

sac:
That is true.  However, the problem for Hope will be...where would you put the new stadium.  As I mentioned, I do not think it would fit nor look good in front of DeVos.  Again, if they bought the homes in the block just across the street from DeVos, that could be a possibility and it would still fit in with the other athletic complexes that already exist.  However, there would then be two football stadiums within 1/2 block of each other and I doubt that would/will happen.

The problem, as I understand it, is that the City of Holland is fearful that Hope will charge them a high fee for rent, concessions, etc., as Hope did allegedly to Holland Christian High School, which was the reason why the latter left DeVos, raised their own funds and decided to build their nice new basketball/vollyball facility at their h.s. to add to their own nice fb stadium and new synthetic turf. 

Anyway, to me, it makes the most sense both business and logial for Hope and the City to work out a deal for the stadium that is mutally beneficial to both.  The football stadium has had its problems since its inception/construction and that is another story as we know (which I am going to relate to Raider68 since he asked in his recent post since he doesn't know that history! )

[formerd3db]

sflzman:

The current turf, which is being replaced now as you relate since it is over 10 years old, and that as the expected life of it anyway when it was put in - it cost $550,000 instead of the $800,000+ that the "old" synthetic turf i.e. Omni turf cost.  I do not know what the new turf will cost, although it will only cost Alma the cost of the turf because they don't have to do any stadium renovations as do some of these other smaller DIII schools who are just now putting it in and renovating their stadiums for the first time in decades.

The current "new" turf, while at the end of its life, is certainly not anywhere near the hardness and/or dangerousness that the old style turf was before Alma replaced it.  That old turf was, indeed, like concrete and had caused an increase in concussions (and other injuries) before it was put in.  Alma wasted a ton of $ back then because the spent $35,000 just to patch it up in its final year, when they could have replaced it before then.  Of course, that would have meant that it would/should have been replaced last year instead of next year as you mention!   Just for the sake of history, the Omni Turf, which Alma put in for the first time ever and being the first MIAA school to have synthetic turf for fb back in 1985, was then the "state of the art" turf.  It was supposed to be better than Astro Turf; Baldwin-Wallace, Eastern Michigan and Ferris State were the other three schools to first have it right before Alma.  It was my understanding that Eastern Michigan (perhaps Mr. Ypsi can help me out here ) or Ferris had then put the second generation of OMni Turf in during the mid-1990's before then going to the new style turf of Astro Play and/or Field Turf.

Also, Alma again was a leader in going to the new style turf because it was just the fourth university/college and/or high school in the nation to put in Astro Play when it first came out.  Detroit County Day High School had it as did the University of Seattle.  Anyway, thought this would help with Raider68's history lesson about our MIAA turfs!  See my next post to him.  

[formerd3db]

Raider68:

Okay here is (hopefully - no pun intended! ), the short version of the stadium history at Hope.  Hope's original stadium built in the 1930's was owned by the City of Holland and was the county fair stadium.  As I have mentioned before, it was kind of neat because the home stands coverd with a roof entirely and were like your Mount Union's current old but renovated stands (I kind of likened it to a somewhat "very mini" Churchills Downs.  The visitors side had bleachers the entire length, although that was where the Hope student body usually sat as well because the parents, Hope alumni, etc. sat if the covered stands.  We also had two bleacher sets in the west endzone, which then kind of made the stadium "U" shaped and the stands on both sides were so close to the field, it made it a real neat cozy feeling.  The east end was open with a fence and several old smaller Victorian houses across the street (now torn down and replaced by a huge Senior Citizen's retirement complex) and our kickers always tried at breaking the windows of those houses when they kicked the extra points during games!  At Homecoming, the fans and pep band (unfortunately Hope does not have a marching band, unlike Adrian, Albion, Alma and Trine?, Olivet used to and should bring it back).

Well, both Holland High School and all of Hope's teams - football, soccer, JV for both - used the old stadium and by mid-season, the turf was horrible and dangerous.  So Hope and the City decided to build a new stadium and they were going to put in synthetic turf - which would have been the old style turf because it was back in 1978-79.  The City had a Federal matching grant, but the project got delayed and was almost cancelled.  One of our legendary coaches on the staff was also on the City Council, the late Coach Russ De Vette and it was through his efforts that the stadium was saved to go on, since the City was going to cancel the project and they would have.  He successfully convinced them that since over $110,000 had already been spent on surverying and actual site clearance, that would have been a waste and, they would have lost the Federal matching grant due to not using it within the stipulated time frame.  However, due to the time delay in getting the project started, the construction costs had risen much so that the City and Hope College decided not to put the synthetic turf in to save that additional $.  The result, IMO and that of many others, is that has been a disaster in that respect ever since, becasue the same problem existed and still does to this day in having a poor field condition during the season because both the high school and the college use it.  The field drainage is terrible since it was initially made for synthetic turf, and even despite re-excavations thereafter to put a crown on the field to facilitate drainage.  So they had a nice new stadium,, but the same problem for which they wanted to replace the old one in the first place.  In additon, several of the surrounding area high schools, including one in adjacent Zeeland and Holland Christian, have the new style turf.

So the bottom line is that they had a new stadium but the same problem for which they decided to replace the old stadium for in the first place.  Also, if the College ever decides to bring the company in to put new style turf on all the practice fields, it will be cheaper to do the stadium at the same time since all the heavy equipment will be there as opposed to having to bring it in a second time and it is my understanding that is very, very expensive. So once again, IMO, the City and Hope need to work out this deal.  All of Hope's athletic facilities surround the stadium so that alone makes since, although a City owned park is in front of the stadium which has a nice picnic pavilion. The visitors current locker rooms are a city owned swiimming pool building, but I'm told even that facility is getting outdated and not sufficiently used during the summer.

Anyway, there is the hisotory and my apologies for "going over" and this did not end up being "the short version"!

[sflzman]

sflzman:

The current turf, which is being replaced now as you relate since it is over 10 years old, and that as the expected life of it anyway when it was put in - it cost $550,000 instead of the $800,000+ that the "old" synthetic turf i.e. Omni turf cost.  I do not know what the new turf will cost, although it will only cost Alma the cost of the turf because they don't have to do any stadium renovations as do some of these other smaller DIII schools who are just now putting it in and renovating their stadiums for the first time in decades.

The current "new" turf, while at the end of its life, is certainly not anywhere near the hardness and/or dangerousness that the old style turf was before Alma replaced it.  That old turf was, indeed, like concrete and had caused an increase in concussions (and other injuries) before it was put in.  Alma wasted a ton of $ back then because the spent $35,000 just to patch it up in its final year, when they could have replaced it before then.  Of course, that would have meant that it would/should have been replaced last year instead of next year as you mention!   Just for the sake of history, the Omni Turf, which Alma put in for the first time ever and being the first MIAA school to have synthetic turf for fb back in 1985, was then the "state of the art" turf.  It was supposed to be better than Astro Turf; Baldwin-Wallace, Eastern Michigan and Ferris State were the other three schools to first have it right before Alma.  It was my understanding that Eastern Michigan (perhaps Mr. Ypsi can help me out here ) or Ferris had then put the second generation of OMni Turf in during the mid-1990's before then going to the new style turf of Astro Play and/or Field Turf.

Also, Alma again was a leader in going to the new style turf because it was just the fourth university/college and/or high school in the nation to put in Astro Play when it first came out.  Detroit County Day High School had it as did the University of Seattle.  Anyway, thought this would help with Raider68's history lesson about our MIAA turfs!  See my next post to him.  

I don't know exact figures, but I know had the President approved the maroon turf apposed to the multi-color green, with 3 color "A"s at 3 places on the field, and maroon endzones with white and black lettering, Alma would have been saving a lot of money.

Again like way back when we spent a bunch of money during camp this past summer fixing 3 major tears in the turf. And though this turf isn't as hard as the old one, it still does not feel great to land on.

Also, because of the additional patch ups the team's 2-year uniform process was changed to 3 years because there was only enough money left in the football budget last season to buy half of the road uniforms. So this year the remainder of the road unis will be ordered, then next year will have the home jerseys.

It will look better on TV than the maroon field would have.

It definately would be interesting to see a maroon turf on TV. I know the sea of red at Eastern Washington blows your eyes out even more than the Boise blue.

I saw a cut-out turf sample that was sent in, and the maroon looked dark and subtle enough that I thought it actually wouldn't blow your eyes out too badly 

[70_dc_alum]

sflzman:

The current turf, which is being replaced now as you relate since it is over 10 years old, and that as the expected life of it anyway when it was put in - it cost $550,000 instead of the $800,000+ that the "old" synthetic turf i.e. Omni turf cost.  I do not know what the new turf will cost, although it will only cost Alma the cost of the turf because they don't have to do any stadium renovations as do some of these other smaller DIII schools who are just now putting it in and renovating their stadiums for the first time in decades.

The current "new" turf, while at the end of its life, is certainly not anywhere near the hardness and/or dangerousness that the old style turf was before Alma replaced it.  That old turf was, indeed, like concrete and had caused an increase in concussions (and other injuries) before it was put in.  Alma wasted a ton of $ back then because the spent $35,000 just to patch it up in its final year, when they could have replaced it before then.  Of course, that would have meant that it would/should have been replaced last year instead of next year as you mention!   Just for the sake of history, the Omni Turf, which Alma put in for the first time ever and being the first MIAA school to have synthetic turf for fb back in 1985, was then the "state of the art" turf.  It was supposed to be better than Astro Turf; Baldwin-Wallace, Eastern Michigan and Ferris State were the other three schools to first have it right before Alma.  It was my understanding that Eastern Michigan (perhaps Mr. Ypsi can help me out here ) or Ferris had then put the second generation of OMni Turf in during the mid-1990's before then going to the new style turf of Astro Play and/or Field Turf.

Also, Alma again was a leader in going to the new style turf because it was just the fourth university/college and/or high school in the nation to put in Astro Play when it first came out.  Detroit County Day High School had it as did the University of Seattle.  Anyway, thought this would help with Raider68's history lesson about our MIAA turfs!  See my next post to him.  

Having played at Alma in 96 and 99 the stuff they have today has to feel like a tempurpedic bed compared to the concrete then.  When SaintsFan gets us going all we have to do is bring up that turf and he can't complete a sentence for a week after he smashed his skull on that turf. Which d3football posted a picture of the hit that knocked him stupid for one of those all decade team articles (I think that was the article)

Best description of that turf was it was like the green fake grass carpet you find on a concrete patio at a trailer park but it was really worn down and covered in sand for padding and to fill in the holes and cracks

[formerd3db]

70_dc_alum:

Your assessment/definition of the condition of that turf is right on.  It is actually hilarious now (i.e. your description regarding "trailer park indoor-outdoor fake grass recreational carpet filled in with sand to cover the cracks, athough it wasn't funny at the time of SaintsFAN's injury or the others that occurred during that time before the new turf! ouch!)

sflzman:

The maroon turf doesn't sound that bad as you describe.  Too bad it was now voted down by your alma mater.  I do agree with you, however, that the current turf that needs to be replaced is well matted down and worn and certainly is harder than it was when it was first installed about 11 years ago or so.  But again, that is the usual expected life of any of these new style turfs and despite their being much less expensive than the old style turf, the longevity factor has not changed.  

BTW, I'm sure you and others saw where they had replaced the new turf in Jerry Jone's Dallas Cowboy's stadium for the Super Bowl after the Sugar Bowl and it was so slippery, it was dangerous.  In that regard, their "old: turf was not that old and IMO, that was an extreme waste of $; but when you are a guy like Jones who has a ton of $ to waste (heck his stadium cost over a billion dollars, then I guess you can do what you want with it.  It just seems to me quite a strange thing to do when the economy is so bad for so many people.  But...perhaps Jones gives a lot of $ to charity - I would hope he would, however, you don't hear abou that if he does.  And if he doesn't (I can't imagine that he doesn't) that would be quite disappointing and smack of arrogance. Ahh, but I digress... . Anyway, we'll look forward to Alma's new turf in the future.  

[sflzman]

Yeah, but the Cowboys are a joke and nobody likes them anyways...

I'm dissapointed Vick is getting the franchise tag. I was hoping he would somehow be in purple and gold next year!

[D306]

D3DB first of all +1 for your Karma  Great detail and history

The Super Bowl was bad, the "new" turf was slippery, the seams and different shades and grain of "turf" was easy to see on TV.

Glad JJ took a beating for the Seat troubles, weather issues, the Cowboy's no were to be found in the playoffs. I do not like the guy, all about the show and himself bad example of what makes a Football team and a company successful.

We have discussed at length the "Turf" vs. Grass issue. I will always like grass better, from a cost issue "Turf" is a better option. I would like all of the MIAA go to "Turf" multiuse locations, good use of College's money. I "hope" that Holland and Hope can come to a agreement that serves both well. These fields could still have "character" with the seating and surrounding area. I enjoy the classic look / traditional look to the buildings.

As far as Michael Vick I give him credit for having a decent / good year.
I have my own personal hell for him, POS I never will respect him or forgive him, sub-human no excuse for it.

Spring Ball is coming, good chance to see who has been working hard this winter. Championships are won in the off season.

[Raider 68]

Formerd3db,

Thanks for the short version on Hope. Eventually the city and the school can get on the same page so everyone benefits. In small communities, more often than not, a college/university provides so much to a city in terms of employment, visitors and the money spent for lodging/restaurants etc. Often that fact is overlooked and taken for granted. Fostering a good partnership for the future should be a priortiy there. IMHO! +k