FB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[formerd3db]

D306:

Thank you very much and here is +k for you regarding your own great comments.  I remember that in the past you (and some others) said you liked the grass.  However, in this "day and age", I agree that the multiuse new style turf is the best answer for all the small colleges/universities at the very least for all the reasons that have been discussed before and, of course, the $ issue as you mention.

I also agree with you and sflzman re: JJ.

Good to hear from you and I hope all is well with you and yours.  BTW, sounds like Hoke and your U of Michigan is on a very positive start so far for the upcoming fb season.  Should be fun (I hope! for them and us at Hope;well, we'll include your Albion as well?).

Raider68:

As you and D306 mentioned, yes, I hope that Hope and the City of Holland can work something out.  I can't imagine they won't eventually due to the very fact that they have had a tremendous great working and supportive relationship for decades, perhaps the best in the all of the MIAA among the schools and their respective towns.  The community has supported Hope's athletic aspect (and, of course, the academic and cultural offerings for years), and in sometimes  having the best attendence overall for many year at the games (except for Trine fb this year ) for most of the sports; they have the big Community Appreciation Day for the first home fb game each year with a huge picnic/bbq lunch for community, fans, aumni, etc.  A ton of older commnity residents always come to the fb games (including bb for both men and women - not sure if some of you knew this but Hope holds the al-time DIII single game attendance for men's bb at almots 12,000 when they played Calvin about 10 years ago and they have led DIII in national avg attendance in basketball the past 4-5 years just under 4,000 and...the women's bb team (which has won 2 national DIII championships) had 3,400 at their game a couple of weeks ago - the latter outdraws some DI schools including MSU's great women's team at times).  I could go on further, but I thinkk you get my point about the good relationship between the college and the city.  So, again, I will be extremely disappointed if they don't eventually work something out that is a "win-win" situation for both as you mention - it would be extremely stupid and foolish IMO if they didn't.

[D306]

The updates to Stadiums really comes down to Alumni support, as Colleges, cities and States are cash strapped. This may take a few years especially in Michigan / Ohio / Indiana.

RE: UofM as I had commented earlier, Hoke is a very good coach and recruiter.  Hired a very strong staff ( the key to a good team ) He is tough the team will be tough, and disciplined. It will take a few years to transition into their "style". I expect a strong season this year, all kinds of speed, nice recruit class targeting a few area's in defense. Next years recruit class will be key. The attittude and unity in the UofM family is more unitied. RR is a decent guy, good coach, bad fit, made too many changes and did not transition into his game. Not enough support in the "famliy" or the media.

I am not as close to Albion as I was ( not that I was ever an "insider" ) The players I coached or were kids of my friends are almost all out of program.
What I noticed from the little I saw after our move out of state, is 2009 defense ( did not see much of 2010 games) was  good had the chance to be very good, dominating. Too many injuries not enough depth to cover for injuries. ( I think this is the real difference in the last 5-7 years in the MIAA, teams cannot build enough depth, have to hit with every recruit and get lucky with walk ons ) The offense has some very good talent coming back RB specifically, I noticed some good size and quality schools in the incoming OL players. The defense has a couple key players DB, but again has lost DL strength. In the last 2 years Albion lost 4 above average DL players to graduation. I do not know if they have replaced them, this upcoming year. I hate to say this but the overall talent and play level seems to have regressed in the MIAA Trine obviously has improved to a quality team. I think Trine is solid but is not any better than some of the Hope, Albion teams from a few years ago.

Thank You for asking about my family, things are good. My Daughter in law has adjusted to the loss of Husband (our son) and the twins medical issues. Long term the Twins health issues look to be stable / in remission. Look to give them the best life they can have for as long as we are blessed to have them in our lives.  We all have adjusted to the new house and living conditions, full access and medical requirements on-site now.

Now that house / kids are up  I will try to see some games locally and possibly catch a MIAA game. When back in Michigan.

[formerd3db]

D306:

You are so right.  Also, yes, it will be interesting to see how the aspects progress that you've discussed with those teams. BTW, I will continue to keep you in prayer - glad to hear that your family situation has improved.  Keep the Faith...keep posting with us here.  Also, if/when you ever get to one of the MIAA games of Albion or any teams that play against Hope, please let me know in advance - it would be great to meet you in person.

[Raider 68]

D306:

Thank you very much and here is +k for you regarding your own great comments.  I remember that in the past you (and some others) said you liked the grass.  However, in this "day and age", I agree that the multiuse new style turf is the best answer for all the small colleges/universities at the very least for all the reasons that have been discussed before and, of course, the $ issue as you mention.

I also agree with you and sflzman re: JJ.

Good to hear from you and I hope all is well with you and yours.  BTW, sounds like Hoke and your U of Michigan is on a very positive start so far for the upcoming fb season.  Should be fun (I hope! for them and us at Hope;well, we'll include your Albion as well?).

Raider68:

As you and D306 mentioned, yes, I hope that Hope and the City of Holland can work something out.  I can't imagine they won't eventually due to the very fact that they have had a tremendous great working and supportive relationship for decades, perhaps the best in the all of the MIAA among the schools and their respective towns.  The community has supported Hope's athletic aspect (and, of course, the academic and cultural offerings for years), and in sometimes  having the best attendence overall for many year at the games (except for Trine fb this year ) for most of the sports; they have the big Community Appreciation Day for the first home fb game each year with a huge picnic/bbq lunch for community, fans, aumni, etc.  A ton of older commnity residents always come to the fb games (including bb for both men and women - not sure if some of you knew this but Hope holds the al-time DIII single game attendance for men's bb at almots 12,000 when they played Calvin about 10 years ago and they have led DIII in national avg attendance in basketball the past 4-5 years just under 4,000 and...the women's bb team (which has won 2 national DIII championships) had 3,400 at their game a couple of weeks ago - the latter outdraws some DI schools including MSU's great women's team at times).  I could go on further, but I thinkk you get my point about the good relationship between the college and the city.  So, again, I will be extremely disappointed if they don't eventually work something out that is a "win-win" situation for both as you mention - it would be extremely stupid and foolish IMO if they didn't.

Formerd3db,

Speaking of Hope's, what schools have been the atttendance leaders in the MIAA?

[Uncle Rico]

Trine was #8 in the nation for Division 3 with an average home attendance of 4,784.  

Mt Union was #14 at 4,079.  

St John's was #1 with an average attendance of 8,651.  

I got the numbers here...

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2010.pdf

The MIAA was #12 of 29 conferences total.

Trine 4784
Hope 2335
Adrian 2120
Albion 1858
Alma 1417
Kalamazoo 1148
Olivet 611 (?)

[Raider 68]

Trine was #8 in the nation for Division 3 with an average home attendance of 4,784. 

Mt Union was #14 at 4,079. 

St John's was #1 with an average attendance of 8,651.   

I got the numbers here...

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2010.pdf

The MIAA was #12 of 29 conferences total.

Trine 4784
Hope 2335
Adrian 2120
Albion 1858
Alma 1417
Kalamazoo 1148
Olivet 611 (?)

Uncle Rico,

Thanks! +k

[formerd3db]

Uncle Rico:

Yes, thanks for the info - and +k for you .  Impressive for not only Trine, however, the MIAA as well.  I also think that had Olivet not had such a bad year i.e. if they had been like they were years ago, their average home attendance would have beeen much more than it was this year.  In addition, I was surprised to see that Kalamazoo's attendance was over the 1,000 mark and that is great.  I would have thought it was similar to Olivet's as it has been like that in the past.  However, I believe that just shows what a good job that Zorbo is doing with the program so far in getting some increased support from their fan base and not just parents whose sons are playing.   BTW, I hope you (and LIR) - and like D306 has continued to do -will periodically continue to keep posting on here even though your son has completed his eligibility.  I have appreciated/enjoy your contributions as I'm sure our colleagues here do as well. Besides, what else would you be doing in your "spare time"?

Raider68:

Uncle Rico beat me to it i.e. the attendance info!  I usually follow that "stuff" yearly as well (I recall, if I recall correctly, that Pat had posted a link to that i.e. NCAA DIII football attendance as well last year or before - it may have been one that he and his staff compiled as opposed to the NCAA site that Uncle Rico noted, however, Pat's one was very well done).  At any rate, it is great to see that St. John's continues to be that high (they often have >10,000 at home games.  I also recall when Dayton used to have 10,000-11,000 the first few years after they dropped from DI  to DIII i.e. before the actual DI-AA "days", which was great.  Anyway, it is also still great to see, as has been mentioned, that there are still some yearly DIII fb games that draw those higher numbers i.e. over 10,000 such as the Monon Bell and the Ithaca/Cortland games.

BTW, congrats on your 400th (now 401) +k.  Well done, sir!

[Raider 68]

Formerd3db, Uncle Rico

Thanks for that! Looking at Mt. Union's attendance for 2010, there were only
4 home games and some of the tougher oponents were away games. All in all the 4,000 plus is about right with the top games reaching up to 8,000 fans. Regarding St. John's, their attendance has always been great and they have a captive audience there.

Most D3 stadiums seat 5,000 or less, except for the WIAC teams that are closer to 10,000. IMHO, most often it is the great atmosphere, not simply the huge numbers!

[Bash-Dad #84]

Wabash College, with less than 900 students is #4 in the nation in average attendance! I think that is awesome. I don't do a lot of bragging on here, but it is a great place to watch a football game. 

[Raider 68]

Wabash College, with less than 900 students is #4 in the nation in average attendance! I think that is awesome. I don't do a lot of bragging on here, but it is a great place to watch a football game. 

Bash-Dad #84,

That says something about the program, Coach and fans!

[sflzman]

MIAA Teams ranked in attendance  by % capacity...

Trine - 96% (4784/5000+)
Adrian - 71% (2120/3000)
Hope - 47% (2335/5000)
Kalamazoo - 38% (1148/3000)
Albion - 36% (1858/5114?)
Alma - 35% (1417/4000)
Olivet - N/A (611/?)

[sflzman]

MIAA Teams ranked in attendance  by % capacity...

Trine - 96% (4784/5000+)
Adrian - 71% (2120/3000)
Hope - 47% (2335/5000)
Kalamazoo - 38% (1148/3000)
Albion - 36% (1858/5114?)
Alma - 35% (1417/4000)
Olivet - N/A (611/?)

Any ideas on Olivet's max capacity?

[formerd3db]

sflzman:

Great job on the statistics - thanks and +k.  Olivet's capacity is 2,000 for the main home permanent stadium stands and I believe about 500 for the single vistors bleacher section they have.  Perhaps OC_SID can help us out, although I believe those numbers are correct (if they are not, then I believe the total stadium actual seating (i.e not standing) capacity is 2,000.  So if you use only the home stand number of 2,000, then 611/2000 = 31%.  If you use the total stadium capacity of the other figure, then 611/2500 = 24%.

Also, Hope's stadium total seating capacity is 5325.  So their actual average attendance capacity percentage is 2335/5325 = 44% three % points down from your original 47% (ouch! )

Also, I was surprised to see some of the colleges that were in the top ten and also higher than some I thought would be "way up there".  For example, Amherst (the Lord Jeffs, for you history buffs!) was 5.068; Geneva College in PA was 5,184; Grove City College PA (who has the U of Michigan helmets but with red wings!) was way up there also with 3,420.  Baldwin-Wallace was 4327  and even Ohio Wesleyan beat Hope with a mark of 2,405.  Linfield, out in Oregon had only 2,087.  Monmouth (Hope Coach Dean Kreps alma mater outdrew DePauw).  And here was a good one - Otterbein (which is similar to Hope) drew 4,200 per game which is fantastic. 

Anyway, thanks to Pat and crew for posting these attendance figures again this year, and again to you guys i.e. Uncle Rico and sflzman for doing "the math" for us.

[formerd3db]

You guys have me going on this "attendance thing".  In reviewing the NCAA Football attendance figures for 2010 for all divisions, DIII and even our MIAA didn't do that bad in reality.  I was quite surprised.  Here are some of the various "FYIs" that I scanned/picked up on:

The some of the MIAA schools did just as well and in some instances better than the DII schools in the GLIAC.  GLIAC attendance numbers:
Hillsdale 1,803
Ferris St. 2,973
Ashland 3,765
Indianapolis 3,772
Michigan Tech 2,186
Morthern Mich 2,533
Wayne State 2,772
Ohio Dominican 1,660
Saginaw Valley 5,739
Lake Erie 1,690

Others DII schools from other conferences or independents: Mercyhurst 1,443; Gannon 1,558, St. Joseph's (IN) 2,462

Compare this to FCS Daytoon 3,286 (way down from their "glory days"), Davidson 3,508, Columbia, Darmouth, Cornell 5,000-6,000 range, Yale and Harvard 14,000=16,000; James Madison 16,000, Valparaiso 2,172, Princeton 7,725, Eastern Washington the FCS champion 6,472 (as compared to Appal. St and Montana at 25,000), Drake 2,466, Jacsonville State near 10,000, Liberty 14,630 -wow, that is great for this school in VA (seems like the VA FCS and other schools do pretty well ), SanDiego about 3000+ (way down) Morehead-State drew better and Stephen F. Austin in Texas who used to be in the Pinoeer League with Dayton, Valpo, etc. drew about 9,000+;  Even now DIII Minnesota-Morris outdrew some of their fellow Miinn DII schools!!

DI MAC, Buffalo 12,000, Eastern Michigan 15,000+ (wow, Mr. Ypsi - how did they do that and outdraw some of the others? , Western Mic 13,000, Ball State 8,000+ (ouch   ), even Kent State drew better; Central Mich 20,000, etc.

Overall, NCAA football attendance in 2010 was way up from the previous years - which is great!

So, what do you guys think?

[formerd3db]

So Mr. Ypsi - I still want to know what you think!  Eastern Michigan outdrawing some of those fellow MAC schools??