FB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Flying Dutchman56]

I hear ya sflzman and I totally agree that throughout each game the situation does/ can change and the defense needs to adapt (which is why I like the way Hope runs the 4-2-5 and I'll try to explain below). 

Moving to a 4-3/4-4 with complete ease is another reason I like the 4-2-5 and think its as flexible/ unpredictable as a defense can get.  I say that b/c Hope doesn't use 5 true DB's in the back-field, two of the players are linebacker/ DB hybrids if you will (how they are used and their size, speed, etc).  Meaning they can drop into any coverage needed (They are listed as safety's) but at the same time they can set up in the box to help stuff the run, making the defense a 4-3 or 4-4 without changing personal or being threatened to expose the pass defense verses putting in a more standard linebacker type that can only cover the flats more or less on a pass play.  This also can confuse offenses/ blocking schemes as they could line up in a 4-4 but fall back into a cover set or on the other end of the spectrum they could be set up in what appears to be a pass coverage set but the play call for them is to play the run and be linebackers, etc....This also give additional options for various stunts and blitzes as these guys can cover the gaps left by linebackers and D-lineman doing blitzes and twists/ stunts. 

Just my two cents.......

Thanks for the response!  Hopefully someother guys will weight in also.

[ThunderHead]

I have two MIAA related football questions that might spark some interest....

1.  Why does Trine often use a formation with an extra O-lineman on one side of the line and then put 1 O-lineman and a tight-end on the other?  What is the benefit of that?  I have my ideas, but I would like to hear other's thoughts....

2.  Most of the MIAA schools run a traditional 4-3-4 defense.  Hope runs a 4-2-5 defense which allows for everything a 4-3 does and more (moving players around more creating assignment confusion by the offense, covering up/ hiding various stunts/ blitzes, covering the spread better etc....).  You may call me biased, but I went up against every defense in the league and Hope's every day in practice (I was on the OL) and in my humble opinion the 4-3-5 is much more un-predictable/ tougher to play against and flexible to what an offense throws at them than a 4-3-4.  Please do not think I am bashing the 4-3 either - that is not my intention.  

Have a great weekend all!

As for Trine - I won't pretend to know, other then my thoughts are it has a little to do with creating an odd/even advantage regarding the horizontal stretch of the field.

Regarding the 4-2-5, if Hope runs a hybrid then it's really not a 4-2-5 true, it's more of a hidden 4-4 in my opinion. I think again it all goes back to attack point. Trine wants to spread people out and create space, the football field can be broken up into as many as 12 zones, and no defense can cover the entire field regarding the vertical and horizontal stretch. So - it's all about finding that zone advantage for the offense.

Defensively if you're hiding blitz and coverage packages, you still have to deal with uncovered gaps on the stretch routes. So a good QB/Receiver combo can expose those plots, but obviously if they don't - the defense is going to make a "big" play.

The 4-3 true, has it's advantages against the double tight formations, while it's not as good against 4 or 5 wide stretches where the backers have to walk out, and drop. This said a 4-2-5 true, is not designed to handle the outside gaps well in run based offensive attacks, in my experience. The 4-4 can be very versatile, and yet if you're going that route, you better have 7 studs, (your four backer, two DE's and 1 lock down corner).

Again, just my opinion.

And DBQ1965 - thanks for seeing the humor. The other guys are great at skimming over my posts and then making me repeat an already stated point, to counter their new excuses and daydreams about Michigan football.   So - threw that in there for fun.

Go Trine!

[DBQ1965]

ThunderHead ...

Thanks.  Given their sometimes dismal and sometimes "oh so close" record ... University of Dubuque football fans have to keep a sense of humor.

Go Spartans!

[ThunderHead]

Hey DBQ1965,

Isn't Conner Dixon there as a QB? Or am I thinking of a different school. Close in name perhaps? I don't know, for some reason it rings a bell.

Also - I can't help but notice people keep digging me for my position on a post, rather then the post. It's cool, I don't much care, it just goes to show maturity around here with some "unnamed" people.

Go Trine!!!

[Flying Dutchman56]

Thunderhead thanks for your thoughts -  you are correct its more of a hidden 4-4 based on stopping the run (when the game calls for it), which I consider part of the advantage, but again it can go back to a 4-2-5 just as quickly (Which I also consider part of the advantage).  The same personal can run the 4-2-5 or the 4-4-3 the way Hope runs it.  Its ability to adapt quickly (as the play is unfolding) is what makes it special in my mind.  Also yes of course, anytime a blitz or stunt play is called there is the risk/ reward factor for a defense regardless of the formation so that doesn't make Hope's hybrid 4-2-5 different, but what the defense does do is help mask or hide those exposed gaps to create those blitz advantages, no different in theory than Trine's/ Alma's/ Kzoo's offense running a type of spread that is trying to create space - as the spread advantage is putting guys all over the field and making defenses try to create a formation/ game plan that can stop a variety of play's/ formations - so too the 4-2-5 Hybrid that Hope runs creates match up problem's for offenses as the options that can come at you are many.

Great conversation, I really appreciate your comments and these of course are just my humble opinion's as well - its nice to share them in a mature setting!  Is it football season yet?!!???

[ThunderHead]

Flying Dutchman56,

I see your points on the 4-2-5, and it definitely has it's place. For instance, I know that John L. Smith had a defensive coordinator at MSU named Chris Smeenland, and he ran along a similar thought process as the one you're describing. He had what he called a "bandit back", this was a roving position that could do anything on the field, he could line up anywhere depending on the offensive formation. He was often viewed as a "wildcard" in defensive sets by offensive coordinators. I believe Sir Darin Adams played this position for Coach Smeeland at MSU, and it was a good fit for him, as Sir D could be fierce on designed attack, very nimble in pass coverage, and he was also strong enough to shed a lead blocker and get the POA for the odd man advantage.

Despite this, MSU had hit or miss success against Big Ten opponents running that system, as QB/Receiver combos and backs often bought enough space to evade the designated POA, despite it's blitz happy possibilities and edge heavy pressure. I attribute this to MSU's lack of a true shut down corner.

Again, I believe you have to have the personal to run the system you want, and while Sir Darin was one piece, you also have to have other pieces of the puzzle to be consistently successful.

In the case of a 4-2-5, you must have people you feel comfortable putting on on island per say, and if you don't, and you still want to stick to that system, you need to do an awful lot of window dressing to invite second level misreads and give your boundary corners some help to the middle which can buy your front four an extra step to the POA.

Ultimately it's my experience you run what you can coach, and you recruit what you run. I've seen plenty of examples of solid systems get decimated by inferior opponents because guys simply couldn't coach the system at each position to the level the system required for success. On the other hand I've seen what should be inferior systems destroy superior offensive units because the athletes where coached to the highest level of play within that system and made minimal mistakes because they understood their roll and could pull of their assignments.

So me personally, I feel most comfortable running a 4-4, and staying true to a 4-3 feel, unless my opponent dictates otherwise. But that's because I know every aspect of that system, and I'm confident I can coach that up, and window dress it's weaknesses when needed.

So with that said, although the 4-2-5 may have a lot of options, ultimately the key is having a good 4-2-5 coach, if you don't have that, and the DC is more confident and comfortable with a 4-3, then in the end, the team will have more success with the system he knows, then with the potential success of a system he doesn't know completely.

Hope that makes sense, and again, that's just my experience.

Go Trine!!!

[BOYA87]

From what I'm hearing about this defense is that it is flexible and can run many different schemes with the same personel on the field which is great if you only have 11 athletic and smart players playing defense.  this means your asking 11 men to be on the field for extended periods of time all while knowing every single defensive call in the playbook.  Remember defense is often considered the more exausting side of the ball since they are alwasy reacting to the offense and their tempo.

the truth of the matter is it doesnt matter where on the field you put a man but the man that stands in that position.  KISS (Keep It Simple...Silly)  The key to a great defense is depth.  Every man knowing his position and being deep at each position so that they can play hard and play fast!

Now coming from an offensive player, the offense doesnt care who they see in what position. a B gap defender is a B gap defender, cover 3 is cover 3, Sam LB is a Sam LB, and so on and so on.  Sure maybe it helps with disguising but lets remember that offense is smarter than defense and we will figure it out! 

Now as for Trine's use of the extra lineman to the left side and the tight end to the right it is known as goalline formation but is really used at any point in the field.  I remember a game many moons ago where we were in that formation almost the entire game simply because they coudlnt stop it.  I dont want to give anything away as for the use and reason for this formation but just know that it has one!   haha

[BOYA87]

Also Michigan and MSU boys...cant we all just get along!?  Your making me sick with all this talk!  I guess thats what I get for being an Indiana boy in a Michigan boys conference!

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Also Michigan and MSU boys...cant we all just get along!?  Your making me sick with all this talk!  I guess thats what I get for being an Indiana boy in a Michigan boys conference!

I'm right there with you, although I'm from Iowa.  Now everybody be nice.

Go Hawkeyes!!

[ThunderHead]

I agree with you guys on the 11 man theory, depth is key, and thus recruiting is key. However most personnel packs are similar within the secondary unit on most squads I've coached.

Now - as for the theory of a SAM LB being a SAM LB and so fourth, I'd have to disagree with you here. If everything was the same, then you would be playing with robots. Each athlete within a scheme has strengths and weakness, and when you break down film, you defiantly attack defensive units based on personnel as much as on by scheme.

Now I know for a fact at Trine that the coaches do their very best to simply as much as possible, which I'm all in favor of, however the higher you go football, the less simple it gets, and even the simple can be complicated. Coach Sims in particular can speak to this, especially regarding the Need To Know basis, meaning, sometime a QB needs to know a whole lot more then a slot receiver about a certain play call or formation, with the though being lets not confuse guys with things they don't need to know. How much more information is conveyed to a QB vs a WR varies by program and by coach.

As far as the MSU v U of M deal, well to be honest, it's pretty one sided right at the moment. 3-0, soon to be 4-0, but you know - those blue bellies need some form of self fabricated hope. And lucky for them there are plenty of willing Blue Wall writers to appease them and provide hope, but ultimately it's all about how guys develop within the system. Though that's a mute point with some here.  

Go Trine!!!!

[sflzman]

I hear ya sflzman and I totally agree that throughout each game the situation does/ can change and the defense needs to adapt (which is why I like the way Hope runs the 4-2-5 and I'll try to explain below). 

Moving to a 4-3/4-4 with complete ease is another reason I like the 4-2-5 and think its as flexible/ unpredictable as a defense can get.  I say that b/c Hope doesn't use 5 true DB's in the back-field, two of the players are linebacker/ DB hybrids if you will (how they are used and their size, speed, etc).  Meaning they can drop into any coverage needed (They are listed as safety's) but at the same time they can set up in the box to help stuff the run, making the defense a 4-3 or 4-4 without changing personal or being threatened to expose the pass defense verses putting in a more standard linebacker type that can only cover the flats more or less on a pass play.  This also can confuse offenses/ blocking schemes as they could line up in a 4-4 but fall back into a cover set or on the other end of the spectrum they could be set up in what appears to be a pass coverage set but the play call for them is to play the run and be linebackers, etc....This also give additional options for various stunts and blitzes as these guys can cover the gaps left by linebackers and D-lineman doing blitzes and twists/ stunts. 

Just my two cents.......

Thanks for the response!  Hopefully someother guys will weight in also.

I definately agree with those points, and I think that DB/LB hybrid guys are what you'd like in a defense. Pretty much good-sized DBs that aren't afraid to lay a lick on some! 

I also agree with your point on changing up your look with different arrangements even with the same personnel - beleive me, I know the importance of defense at all levels of football, I learned that at a young age with my dad who always was my defensive co-ordinator in pop warner....I remember one year we won a regional championship game 2-0 to put us within a game from the national championship tournament in florida.....

But anyways, I think we are both "singing the same song" (i guess you could say) but coming at it from different angles! 

[sflzman]

Also Michigan and MSU boys...cant we all just get along!?  Your making me sick with all this talk!  I guess thats what I get for being an Indiana boy in a Michigan boys conference!

I'm right there with you, although I'm from Iowa.  Now everybody be nice.

Go Hawkeyes!!

Ugh, Iowa! At least you're not a Badgers fan 

Go Gophers!

[ThunderHead]

sflzman,

You'll love Coach Kill. Great coach - better person. You're lucky to have him up there.

Go Trine!!!

[DBQ1965]

Hey DBQ1965,

Isn't Conner Dixon there as a QB? Or am I thinking of a different school. Close in name perhaps? I don't know, for some reason it rings a bell.

Also - I can't help but notice people keep digging me for my position on a post, rather then the post. It's cool, I don't much care, it just goes to show maturity around here with some "unnamed" people.

Go Trine!!!

Dixon plays for Duquesne.  Close ... but no cigar.

[sflzman]

sflzman,

You'll love Coach Kill. Great coach - better person. You're lucky to have him up there.

Go Trine!!!

He seems like he should be the right guy! Although thats what they said about Brewster and he was a joke! 

But I do think Kill will turn out much better than Brewster, and I'm glad we have him.