FB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[hazzben]

hmmm......people from Iowa talking football and family, I can't help but think this is a good place for the Cyhawk Trophy to make an appearance.



Warms your heart, doesn't it.

Ummmm, yeah. No comment... 

[smedindy]

As a total outsider from the MIAA but knowing Calvin people (from my work), this may be a little shock to the system, but really it's about recruiting and keeping male students. Football programs mean more male students, simply because you need to fill a team.

The cost of starting football means nothing if it reverses a negative trend in enrollment, especially for males. It also may help in recruiting diversity. Any loss in donations from big money donors will be offset over time as well.

It's probably time for Calvin to start football. if injuries were an issue back in the day, the emphasis now placed on reducing injuries, coupled with the improvements in equipment technology, offset this. Yes, people get hurt playing football. People get injured swimming. It happens. it's sports.

[sflzman]

My insight on WL for this weekend based on the long conversation I had tonigh:

They are a very sound team with a solid offense and a defense that does a good job at hiding their schemes and mixing up with dfferen looks.

Offensively they run a "spread triple" which I've been told is kind of Oregon but kind of Georgia tech. They will run the offense from different formations and will move people in motion in and out of the backfield as needed.

Defensively they will line up in "every formation known to man" and do a lot of things to disguise coverage an confuse the offense. There were times where they look like theyre in a 4 on one side of the field and man on the other. It's a very creative playbook on both sides of the ball but I was told if we play how we can and keep the offense on the field an limit tournovers especially in the redzone (4 in he first three games) we can beat these guys and everyone else comin up on our schedule 

[SaintsFAN]

sflzman:

Hey, I should know this, yet somehow do not recall right now (that could be for several reasons , some of which I don't want to admit !).  In following up on the previously asked question by another poster, why did Alma schedule W&L this year?  Was it because they just hadn't filled their last non-conference spot or did someone cancel out on them?  Of course, we know that the Adrian/UW-W game was cancelled and the reason for their long distance trip out east, but I can't remember the reason for Alma's putting W&L on their schedule.  Please enlighten us sflzman, if you can/are able to.  Thanks.

Well originally there was a home and home with Capital (i think) starting last year, but they cancelled and we scheduled Kentucky Wesleyan (the arrogant D2 team that we went down and nearly beat with the awful QB situation last year) but after last year's scare, and the fact that they'd have to come up here they cancelled on us which left an empty schedule space to be filled....

KY Wesleyan is VERY arrogant and very beatable.  They were NAIA and had the same arrogance when I played against them in 1998 and 1999.

[BoredatWork56]

Regarding the talk of non-conference strength of schedule.

I agree that in general the MIAA is viewed as a weak conference, and I think most people here agree with that perception, fair or not.

The way to change that perception is for teams to have long runs in the playoffs OR do well with tough non-conference schedules. While I think Albion has stepped up to the plate, I think schools like Trine have not. (Olivet plays a tough non-conference this year, but at this point, their affirming the weak league theory)

The sad thing is, Coach Land and other HC's in the league have at various points over the years been quoted as saying how it's important to change the perception of the MIAA to a league that's looked on with respect. Yet if you look at the scheduling, it seems very few are actually willing to change the perception through scheduling.

Until that changes, and schools that are in the top half of the MIAA look to chip away at the Wheaton's, Franklin's, Mt. Union's, and UWW's of the world, I'm afraid the MIAA will stay right where it is.

Just my thoughts on that.

ThunderHead,

Trine just finished up a 6 year contract with Franklin.  During the 2004-2009 seasons, Franklin went 46-18. I cant speak for the current teams on the schedule and how long they will be playing each other, but you don't have to go very far back to see when they "stepped up to the plate" against some of the better teams in the region.

In my opinion, the way to gain respect as a conference is not by playing a tough non conference schedule, it is by winning in the playoffs.  No one is going to give our conference respect for knocking off a CCIW or WIAC team the first week of the season when only 2 schools care about the result.  You get respect when you win on the biggest stage on a consistent basis when the d3nation is watching.  I think the MIAA got more respect when their representative gave UWW their closest game of the season last year in the national quarterfinals.

I don't know if you were quoting Coach Land, or any other MIAA coach, but I can quote Coach Land in saying that it doesn't matter who you play, all that matters is that you be ready to play whoever, whenever, wherever, and when you win - they will not forget they day they crossed your path.  "SPOT THE BALL"

[Uncle Rico]

I agree big non-conference wins (either during the season OR post season) will help with the MIAA perception.  Since the MIAA is considered pretty weak, there is likely only one team from the MIAA that will make the playoffs, so if you are a non conference winning team in the MIAA the only way to make some noise is to beat good non-conference opponents during the regular season.

However, I would put more focus on getting good well coached talent before I worry about schedules.  Simply PLAYING better teams is not enough to make you succeed, and it won't help perceptions if all you do is lose them.  Trine's recent success was not fueled so much by who they played non-conference as it was a great coaching staff, upgraded facilities, and a solid educational offering.  Those things helped bring in talent.
 
I wonder how much the MIAA talent pool is depleted by the number of solid D2 schools in the state / region.  I think this conversation has come up before. 

[ThunderHead]

Regarding a tough non-conference schedule, or lack there of, on Trine's part, I wasn't referring to the past, as much as now. Perhaps in the past when Trine wasn't as good, playing a school like Franklin wasn't beneficial, or about as beneficial as Olivet playing Wheaton.

The reality now is Trine is much more prepared to face off against schools like Wheaton, Franklin, and others from a competition standpoint, and because winning a Nation Title is something that Coach Land has made known he wants to do, I feel it would benefit Trine to play tough non-conference opponents in preparation for the MIAA and a playoff run.

As Uncle Rico mentioned, only one team from the MIAA goes into the tournament, so I don't think a long playoff run by one team does much for a conference, other then signify that at least one good team is in the conference. However if schools like Adrian, Alma, Albion, and Trine all took on tough non-conference opponents and went .500 or better, I think the conference as whole starts to get more respect.

Things like Mach Madness, the bowl series, and locally the ACC/Big Ten challenge are examples of things that give conferences a chance to match up against other conferences. I think the only way the MIAA becomes known as a "tough" conference is if it's member teams start to beat other top tier member teams from good conferences.

That was my point. I don't disagree strong playoff runs help, I just think a conference is more then one team. 

[LetItRain]

The other issue with playing a tougher non-conference schedule is getting tougher teams to agree to play against you.  At some point you get good enough where others don't want to play you.  I believe this has been an issue for Trine over the past couple of years. 

(Sorry if this is a redundant point and someone has already mentioned this...)

GO THUNDER!

[hazzben]

As a total outsider from the MIAA but knowing Calvin people (from my work), this may be a little shock to the system, but really it's about recruiting and keeping male students. Football programs mean more male students, simply because you need to fill a team.

The cost of starting football means nothing if it reverses a negative trend in enrollment, especially for males. It also may help in recruiting diversity. Any loss in donations from big money donors will be offset over time as well.

Agreed. The uptick in male students is significant. Football's an expensive sport to run, but the cost is really offset when you're not giving athletic scholarship. If Calvin added football and could put together a roster in the 100 player range they'd be bringing in some real $$. Especially if a good chunk of those players wouldn't be attending Calvin if it wasn't for football. Data also shows men tend to be more likely to give back to their alma mater. Even if Calvin wasn't seeing a slight decrease in enrollment, the increase in male enrollment has both short term (tuition) and long term (development giving) benefits.

That's why we've seen so many small colleges starting up football programs in recent years. If you've got a manageable travel arrangement for conference games like the MIAA would provide, that also makes it more financially viable.

[sac]

 
I wonder how much the MIAA talent pool is depleted by the number of solid D2 schools in the state / region.  I think this conversation has come up before.

GVSU, Ferris State and SVSU have large rosters for D2  (at least I think)  filled with walk-on's who would do well in D3.  All 3 have over 100 players listed, several players without numbers.

Michigan has 8 D2 programs, compare that to Indiana (4), Illinois(3), Ohio(5) and Wisconsin(1) and its easy to see what a difference it makes in level of competition.

That's between 200 to 300 kids who could be scattered across MIAA rosters.

[Raider 68]

 
I wonder how much the MIAA talent pool is depleted by the number of solid D2 schools in the state / region.  I think this conversation has come up before.

GVSU, Ferris State and SVSU have large rosters for D2  (at least I think)  filled with walk-on's who would do well in D3.  All 3 have over 100 players listed, several players without numbers.

Michigan has 8 D2 programs, compare that to Indiana (4), Illinois(3), Ohio(5) and Wisconsin(1) and its easy to see what a difference it makes in level of competition.

That's between 200 to 300 kids who could be scattered across MIAA rosters.

sac,

Good info! I think it also true that GVSU has been the dominant D2 Michigan program for several years!

[miaafbfan]

sflzman:

Hey, I should know this, yet somehow do not recall right now (that could be for several reasons , some of which I don't want to admit !).  In following up on the previously asked question by another poster, why did Alma schedule W&L this year?  Was it because they just hadn't filled their last non-conference spot or did someone cancel out on them?  Of course, we know that the Adrian/UW-W game was cancelled and the reason for their long distance trip out east, but I can't remember the reason for Alma's putting W&L on their schedule.  Please enlighten us sflzman, if you can/are able to.  Thanks.

Well originally there was a home and home with Capital (i think) starting last year, but they cancelled and we scheduled Kentucky Wesleyan (the arrogant D2 team that we went down and nearly beat with the awful QB situation last year) but after last year's scare, and the fact that they'd have to come up here they cancelled on us which left an empty schedule space to be filled....

KY Wesleyan is VERY arrogant and very beatable.  They were NAIA and had the same arrogance when I played against them in 1998 and 1999.

I wondered why Alma's schedule was like that.  Thanks for the info.  Hopefully next year's schedule doesn't have 6 road games.   

[Uncle Rico]

 
I wonder how much the MIAA talent pool is depleted by the number of solid D2 schools in the state / region.  I think this conversation has come up before.

GVSU, Ferris State and SVSU have large rosters for D2  (at least I think)  filled with walk-on's who would do well in D3.  All 3 have over 100 players listed, several players without numbers.

Michigan has 8 D2 programs, compare that to Indiana (4), Illinois(3), Ohio(5) and Wisconsin(1) and its easy to see what a difference it makes in level of competition.

That's between 200 to 300 kids who could be scattered across MIAA rosters.

I did not realize there were 8 D2 schools in Michigan, although in hindsight I can see it.  You have a huge D2 powerhouse like Grand Valley smack dab in the middle of MIAA country.  And with all those D2 schools able to offer at least partial athletic scholarships I have to believe they snag a few kids that might otherwise go to an MIAA school.  I suspect tuition is less in many of the D2 schools as well.  Take just a small number of these kids and place them on some MIAA D3 teams I wonder how much it would turn a program around.  I know this sounds like I am making excuses but it makes me wonder how much of a factor that is.

[Raider 68]

sflzman:

Hey, I should know this, yet somehow do not recall right now (that could be for several reasons , some of which I don't want to admit !).  In following up on the previously asked question by another poster, why did Alma schedule W&L this year?  Was it because they just hadn't filled their last non-conference spot or did someone cancel out on them?  Of course, we know that the Adrian/UW-W game was cancelled and the reason for their long distance trip out east, but I can't remember the reason for Alma's putting W&L on their schedule.  Please enlighten us sflzman, if you can/are able to.  Thanks.

Well originally there was a home and home with Capital (i think) starting last year, but they cancelled and we scheduled Kentucky Wesleyan (the arrogant D2 team that we went down and nearly beat with the awful QB situation last year) but after last year's scare, and the fact that they'd have to come up here they cancelled on us which left an empty schedule space to be filled....

KY Wesleyan is VERY arrogant and very beatable.  They were NAIA and had the same arrogance when I played against them in 1998 and 1999.

I wondered why Alma's schedule was like that.  Thanks for the info.  Hopefully next year's schedule doesn't have 6 road games.   

Six road games is a bummer!

[formerd3db]

We've discussed this several times here on this board over the last 2-3 years, yet it is always a good discussion.  Yes, it is that simple - the DII schools in Michigan (and to a degree the surrounding states) have many of the players that we in the MIAA are simply not getting anymore.  Some people have had a tendency to riducule the football scholarships offered by these DII schools since they are not "full-rides", however, that is rather riduculous to do so i.e. put forth such thinking because a) the NCAA (and the NAIA for that matter) do not allow full scholarships for football anyway and b) with the cost of education at any school, let alone that for the DIII MIAA schools, the scholarship of anywhere from 2K to 9K surely makes a difference.  So unless parents can really afford to send their son to an MIAA school (again as we have discussed, many of the DIII schools in Ohio for example are even 10K more than some of our MIAA school's highest tuition/R&B), it is an easy decision (a "no-brainer" to use that over-used cliche ) for a student-athlete to choose DII provided he is good enough to play at that level (most obviously are or otherwise they wouldn't be recruited there) and the school has the academic program he needs/desires and, of course, he likes that school's campus setting, etc., etc.  The cost of DIII schools today is simply daunting and becoming more and more difficult for parents and students obviously.

So, without question, that has been the biggest single aspect that has contributed to the decreasing numbers (and, dare I say, perhaps less talent at some of the schools here), unfortunately for the MIAA schools (certainly, it is great for the student-athlete football players who get that DII or NAIA opportunity and for the DII or NAIA schools themselves).  Ask any of the head coaches at our MIAA schools and they will tell you, indeed, this is what the current status is. (except perhaps for Trine, since they have been the top tier MIAA team these past years, which always helps attract top notch student-athlete football players during those periods for any school).  Pesonally, I don't see this changing much for a very long time.  So that means we (i.e. all the MIAA and DIII schools) have to do the best we/they can.  Again, my own opinion on this, but as mentioned, most of the MIAA head coaches agree with this and will tell you the same.