FB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[TUAngola]

As far as Trine, they had attendance last year consistently over the 4,000 mark and their stadium capacity is listed at 5,000. So if those stands were full and they had people standing around also, as well as the fact that it was a game the calibur of an MIAA championship game today there among the two previously undefeated teams, the 5,600 figure doesn't sound unrealistic to me.

It was the largest crowd I've seen in the 2 years of the new Zollner Stadium.  Last year we had a couple home games over 5K, but yesterday there were a lot more people standing around the field.  Adrian had a big contingent of fans, definitely the largest crowd at Trine for a visiting school yet.  The home side was packed in, plus with the suites on top of the stadium and Thunder Club deck you have more fans than you can't visibly see, but not sure how many that is.

Will be curious to see what the attendence will be at our next home game against Hope on the 22nd, especially if we lose to LaGrange and Alma.  Band wagon fans will probably start to jump off.

[ThunderHead]

TUA,

I don't know much about LaGrange, but even though we're not real good in our current state, and I don't mean in anyway for this to come off as arrogant, we're probably still good enough talent wise to beat a few MIAA schools. Though maybe Adrian showed some serious area of weakness with Trine's armor, I'm just not sure some of the other schools have the ability to capitalize.  Alma isn't playing well, and though Albion and Kalmazoo look like they're doing well and are capable of beating us, it's not like the MIAA is the MIAC or WIAC.


I wish it was, then maybe we would get some legitimate change. 

[sflzman]

sflzman:
Oops, my bad!  What an idiot I am! It must have been the residual effects of that "stuff" that Mr. Ypsi said I was drinking last night when I was posting!  While initially reading your post, I was thinking to myself (second guessing myself? ) in that I couldn't have been that mistaken in my own mind that that wasn't you I was talking with!!   .  Bottom line is...I mis-read your post - I see that now i.e. see the comma placement in your sentence. Anyway, without question, it was nice to meet you as well and I enjoyed our discussion.  BTW, do you have any additional ideas/insight with regards to my thoughts about today's attendance?  I still believe there were more than 2,000 at today's game, at least from my past experience of being at games at Bahlke Stadium. Just curious. 

Also, on the topic of attendance, I also noted ForeverFootball's comment about the attendance at the Trine/Adrian game today.  Adrian's stadium capacity is listed at 3,000, so a listing of 4,300 if there was standing room only would not be unrealistic.  (In comparison, Alma's Bahlke Stadium has a capacity of 4,500, not the 4,700 figure listed on d3.com's summary page for them, unless you guys added additional seating with the turf and scoreboard renovations this summer, of which I don't think that happened, nor did the seating capacity or stadium itself look any different to me than it has been for many years).  As far as Trine, they had attendance last year consistently over the 4,000 mark and their stadium capacity is listed at 5,000. So if those stands were full and they had people standing around also, as well as the fact that it was a game the calibur of an MIAA championship game today there among the two previously undefeated teams, the 5,600 figure doesn't sound unrealistic to me.

To add on to your attendance, I as well thought there was more than the 1231 (?) that was listed. I was talking to the sports information director, and his thoughts were that there were around 1800 for attendance, but the official count come inneficiently by the baseball coach Judd Folske, who uses a pitch counter. I'm sure he misses people counting that way, but what can you do? 

[adidas28]

Upon the thought of a possible long term move out west, I felt I needed to see at least one last Trine game, and home coming seemed to be it. So I donated my MSU vs OSU tickets to a friend and headed to Angola.

SO - here it is.

If we give credit to Coach Land when things go well, then it's fair he shares in the blame for the absolute failure of a football performance I saw today.

Ryan Hargraves was an absolute abomination to the quarterback position, and Coach Land, Coach Simmerel, and Coach Pifer ALL deserve the blame as well.

HOW do you let a kid throw 4 interceptions (he would have thrown five but two Adrian guys literal pulled the ball away from each other with no Trine receiver around them), fumble twice (one of which was recovered by WR Nash-Kniffen), complete less then half his passes, and NEVER consider pulling him.

Ryan looked like a JV level quarterback who 1. looked pre-snap to his throwing side 2. locked in on his intended receiver throughout the route and threw to said receiver despite coverage package 3. never identified the zone under coverage developing after the snap 4. threw the ball with little to no velocity 5. had no accuracy in tight vertical space 6. threw into double and triple coverage 7. never made decisive decisions within the pocket that resulted in sacks 8. looked like he simply didn't want to be out there. He showed no interest in getting Trine to the line in the 3rd and 4th quarter, and could not have done a better job of mis-managing the clock, averaging snaps well under the 20 second mark on the play clock. They were snapping the ball like they had the lead...

AND yet Coach Land, apparently blind to it all, just let it ride, and was more interested in yelling at the officials then  addressing the fact his team was getting the screws put to them by an aggressive Adrian defense, and an impressive front four. What was just as ridiculous to watch was after Trine had lost about 25 yards on two sacks (including a 4th down sack) late in the 4th quarter with the game out of reach, Coach Land starts calling timeouts under 2 minutes, apparently not wanting Ryan's night to end on the multitude of negatives that were eye blisteringly apparent. So what happens? Trine gets the ball back after using it's timeouts and the game ends with Ryan throwing his 4th interception on a sadly under thrown ball into double coverage. Well played....

It has been more then clear all year Hargraves has severally lacked the arm strength and mobility to take Trine to the level they want to go (competing for National Championships and I'm sorry, but throwing for a billion yards against one bottom feeder for two quarters in the Heartland conference hardly qualifies one as "solid"), but again, a weak non-conference schedule completely "hid" this inept offense, though if you paid attention, it'd be hard to not realize that Trine's offense has played only about 3 good quarters of football out of a total of 12.

How ANY coach didn't see this is mind boggling to me. The "offensive issues" both on the ground and in the air, that were all to apparent against Adrian have been there all year, and Trine finally played a team that their defense couldn't bail out. (Albeit their secondary leaves much to be desired.)

For goodness sakes Coach, you have a kid Raush you highly recruited out of Wisconsin and a former D1 QB in Blackport sitting on your bench, how about giving one of those guys a chance? I HIGHLY doubt they'll do worse then what I saw today. Until I SEE Blackport do worse Uncle Rico, I couldn't disagree with your comments more.

Sorry Coach, I don't for a second by the argument that either of your backup QB's are not ready to run an offense as simple as you showed today. If that's the case, it a reflection on the coaches teaching the offense, not the guys in the offense.

But I'm sure you'll play a few weak teams, get yourself "right" while sticking to your guns with Hargraves, and mentally overate yourself (again) and then get beat by Albion or Kalamazoo to end the year, and that will be that. You'll call your overall record a success because of the youth on the team and the rebuilding process, but for at least for today it has a lot to do with the way this team is being coached.

Congrats to Adrian, you used a combination of zone and man defense to completely shut down Coach Land's 3 call playbook, and on offense, you took advantage of a Trine secondary that has shown itself deficient against the air to the deep seams and deep quarters all year long.

You guys deserved the win, my hats off. Hopefully we start to play the best players.

Yep, you hit the nail on the head, this group of coaches that you call out from behind your screen name have been at every practice, meeting, and team function since camp opened and simply chose to ignore the fact that the better QB is on the sidelines. After dong the impossible and turning a doormat football program around in a matter of a few short years and winning three straight conference championships they just decided to say "screw it" it's time to lose one. How many hours of practice have you been at this year? How much film have you studied with the three QB's? I'm not saying the other two QB's aren't good - they very well could be great (I hope they will be), but I'm guessing, and this is just a hunch because I am clueless when it comes to all of this football stuff, that the starter is based on what happens during practice, film, and meetings. Did Trine play great? No. Are there things to work on? Yes. Was Adrian better yesterday? Yes. 

Everybody has been posting on this sight that the MIAA needs another team to step up and compete so that the conference can start getting a little more respect and maybe two teams in the playoffs, maybe Adrian is that team. Adrian played a great game - congrats to them.

I also agree with Rico - the offensive line is young and was missing Kill, Hargraves was running for his life the whole game and took a beating. I give him credit for getting up time and time again and going back to the huddle. IF there is a change in QB's I will root for that QB just like I do Hargraves and I will guess, because I just don't know that much about all this football stuff, that the coaches made the decision based on what is best for the team and who gives them the best shot at winning

The offensive line will get better, Kill will get healthy, and the coaches will make the adjustments needed.

One loss doesn't end a program, one loss doesn't ruin a QB, one loss is simply - one loss.

[hopewatcher]

Good Morning....First of all, my apologies to sflzman and formerd3db on missing you yesterday...we had an unexpected guest at halftime so was plesantly, but unfortunately detained until it was too late....sorry about that and hopefully another opportunity will arise.....
As for the game....it was a very important win for Hope, for many reasons. The most inportant thing, for, me was that the seemed to come out more ready to play, played with emotion, 'got after people', and tried to set the tone (particularly the defense) to start things off. Agreed that there were too many misktakes on offense and special teams (those need to get fixed), and the change in QB was a little rough at first, but got better (turned into a good experience builder)...Hope played through/over them yesterday (and got a couple of breaks), but cannot count on that....but showed mental toughness when they had too (other times they may have folded)  and the defense avoided those big play mistakes....I also agree that there were  a number of unusual situations with the officiating, but they went both ways...I don't know if they were correct or not and I tend to try not to dwell on the officiating too much as there is lots I can't see, or hear from the spectator area so don't have all of the facts...its a variable that both teams have to deal with...and, as I tell my son, sometimes you're not going to get the call  you want, so don't put yourself in a position where that call will affect the outcome of the game........
Hope ran the ball well (The line played pretty well) and passed as well as they need to...Alma is a good team....Had they scored in the first half a couple of times when they had good opportunities, things would have been much more stressful for us Dutch folks.....I wish them well in the future and think they will give teams trouble as the league season progresses...anybody who looks past them will be in for a problem......but yesterday was Hope's day and hopefully they can build on that and take it into the next big game with Kalamazoo....Go Hope!

[formerd3db]

Hopewatcher:

No apologies necessary.  Things happen and halftime is short.  Yet, it was important that you spend time with your friend(s) at their surprise appearance.  We have additional opportunities to visit, at least you and I do for this season.  Also, agree with your assessment of Hope's performance and the game.  Without question, that was a much needed win for Hope for many reasons.  Aside from the "W", one of the most important aspects of it, IMO, was the confidence booster it will hopefully give our players in that, just as you pointed out, they did not cave-in or give up yesterday and "played over" many aspects, unlike what they've done in the past 2-3 years i.e. attitude wise.  They did that i.e. gave up and had no enthusiasm in the second half at the Millikin game this year, although those aspects not quite as bad as last year for many of our games.  Perhaps the difference right now is that they already had two wins under their belt (as opposed to the past 5 years when they we went 0-4) despite one of those being against a not-so-good Lakeland team last weekend.

The obvious test will come next week, first against Kalamazoo, which is an entirely different team this year than the past couple.  As Coach Kreps told our players in the post-game huddle at Alma yesterday, they had better not be looking past Kazoo to Albion, nor be thinking that Kazoo will be a push-over because the latter team will not.  If we are not careful, a loss to Kazoo would be a big blow to a this potentially improved season.  Then, of course, Albion and Trine will be very tough, not to metion Adrian but...I'm getting ahead and as that age-old saying goes, "take only one game at a time". 

I hope the weather stays nice for the next 2-3 weeks as I hate rainy Octobers.   

[formerd3db]

sflzman:

Nothing against Coach Folske as he is a good man.  However, a pitch counter doesn't quite do it for me and one really needs more than one person doing the attendance count at games (a more organized system of doing it as some colleges do).  I've been to many Alma games for many years in the past at Bahlke Stadium and while I do not put myself out as an expert on attendance estimating (because, admittedly, I have been somewhat off at times), again, I agree with you and I know there were way more than the 1280 people listed as the "official" attendance.  As I mentioned, Balhke sits 4,500 and the home stands were at least 1/2 full, actually, IMO, about 3/4 full by halftime and the early 3rd quarter before some Alma students started "drifting" away as Hope's lead had balooned to 31-0 at that point in the 3rd quarter.

[wisd3fan2]

Hi There MIAA
I was not going to post until the end of the season but I think i will post now. All 5 of us QB's gave up the Wis vs Neb game to drive down to Trine Sat. Alverez had great box seats for us:((( We won't be doing that again! I'm not going to pound on Hargraves because I think Thunderhead did that just fine. I also know that many of you will not like to hear what we thought of the game. You think we are bias and you want your home boys to be the stars. However this is our opinion.
7 picks, three luckily dropped, two fumbles, recievers open all over the field and we sit and watch Rauch on the side lines. WHAT??? Rauch is one of Wisconsins top QB,s. This kid is cool as a stone. POISED. Huge arm. Two losses during his high school career. Two undefeated regular seasons as a varsity QB, Two conference champs as a varsity QB. Played in Wi toughest conf!!
Black Belt, Eagle Scout, One of States top ranked Snow Skiers and I could go on and on and on.
He would have blown that team out. Rauch does not loose!
We tryed to talk to him after the game but he had many Wisconsin fans and family around him and we did not want to be rude. (not that he would have told us anything anyways) I have to say that he looked a little upset with the loss but still came off cool and collected. We have no idea what in the world that coaching staff is doing. We are all QB's not coaches. (3 in the NFL) It seems like they are trying to break this kid down and trust me that will not happen. The tougher the team, the colder, the muddier, snow, wind, the better he plays.
We all hope that both Trine and Rauch get it together and get him winning games. And we hope that the offensive coaches really start working with him. The offensive coaching looked real bad!
We were shocked at what we saw. We know you are rebuilding but you have a solid D1 QB on your bench. One other point, Blackport would have done no better than Hargraves did, probably worse. The kid has not played in 3 years. We watched him very close during warm-ups and he looks untrained and all over the place.(mechanics)
I do not post this for debate, it is merely our opinion, what ever thats worth.
If Rauch reads this which I'm sure he won't, we are all behind you. Keep up your hard work. Work every day to get better. Your poise in the pocket is what makes NFL QB,s. You and only you control your destiny!!!!!!!! Wisconsin is proud of Rauch!

[ThunderHead]

I'm not at practice, nor at film study.

To the point though, the reality is - when a kid has thrown 3 picks (I don't include the 4th because it was the second to last play of the game, and although a poor decision, it wasn't possible for Trine to change QB's at that point), and hasn't moved the offense in the first three quarters, I think  it's fair to think a change might be worth doing. It's also fair to say that if Coach Land can take credit for the recent success at Trine, or rather, the recent success at Trine can be attributed to what he has done (which I agree with), then it's equally fair that he share in the blame for the teams complete lack of execution coming off a bye week.

While you may think it's not fair for someone to have an opinion when they're not at practice, I'd encourage you to remember that this is college football. That's the name of the game, and it's something you better get use to. Both as a player and a coach it's something you expect at the college level.  Sometimes an opinion is way off base, sometimes they have merit, but most of the time the people with them have no direct knowledge to what the situation is they're speaking on beyond that of what they see.

I guess I don't mind being told I don't know what I'm talking about.  My post was primarily to suggest it's fair to ask why Hargraves was not pulled based on his performance. As I've stated in prior posts, a bad offensive line doesn't always lead to unforced interceptions. From my view point, there were three picks he threw where he was not under any duress, he wasn't running for his life, he had set up and simply made bad decisions. It doesn't take "going to practice or watching film" to see those kind of things.

Typically if a QB is getting sacked and fumbling, or if he throws picks while he's in the process of delivering the football - then you attribute that to poor line play. However if his "internal clock" is just wound to tight (regardless of why), it at worst should cause him to throw the ball out of bounds to early or run instead of throw without real pressure. In regards to his interceptions in particular, this wasn't the case.

I also want to be clear that I don't attribute my comments to the fact it was Hargraves throwing the picks, if it was Rausch or Blackport, I would wonder the same thing. If ESPN was televising the game, they would wonder the same thing. If Trine was Ohio State, Monday on College Football Live, THEY would wonder the same thing. I don't think it would matter who the quarterback was, if they throw four picks, don't move the offense, and lose because of it, people are going to ask "why not let someone else get a chance?" And that's a fair question.

Maybe Raush or Blackport would have gone in and done no better, but at the very least, I think they do just as poorly. But maybe they don't, so why not allow them the opportunity? More then a few times I've been on a staff where we pulled the start after doing quite a bit less wrong then Hargraves did, as a way to try to motivate the offense. After the game, the question we hear is "Is so and so your new starter?" and the answer can be "no, but we needed to do something to try to breath some life into the offense. As of now our original starter is still our starter, but like always we'll evaluate the tape and decide what's best for the football team."

I don't think there is anything wrong with that approach, pulling a guy doesn't mean he's "done" as the starter. As for watching Blackport in warm-ups and saying he would have done "worse", I don't agree with that. I think you can only base your opinion on a kid by what he actually does in the game, and until I see either Rausch or Blackport in a COLLEGE game, I really can't speak to their level of play. Both of them were very successful high school quarterbacks at big schools who played in big conferences. But that's high school.

Obviously they BOTH must just be doing so poorly that Coach Land would have rather stuck with a kid who threw four picks then put either one of those guys in. Though this thought seems completely illogical, it's the only one that I can conclude. If that's the case, either they made a bad choice recruiting them, or they have done a bad job coaching them. Again, at some point, coaching plays a part, so I don't feel like I was out of line for posting the content I posted.

[Uncle Rico]

Rauch is one of Wisconsins top QB,s. This kid is cool as a stone. POISED. Huge arm. Two losses during his high school career. Two undefeated regular seasons as a varsity QB, Two conference champs as a varsity QB. Played in Wi toughest conf!!
Black Belt, Eagle Scout, One of States top ranked Snow Skiers and I could go on and on and on.
He would have blown that team out. Rauch does not loose!

Yes, but has he ever stayed at a Holiday Inn Express?   

Between you guys giving up Wisc / Nebraska tickets, and Thunderhead missing the msu game, I believe you both brought bad juju to the game.      Then again, I could have been bow hunting and gave that up!  All three of us deserve to be smited, and banned from making the trip to LaGrange.

Will be interesting to see what changes will be made, and how the team responds.  I am still more in line with Adidas's opinion, and I think the line needs more work.

[ThunderHead]

UR.

To be fair, it was homecoming. I've missed the little group I tailgate with, Buckeye fans not so much. LOL I definitely did not have not have box seats from the HC either, if I did, I'd have been at the Shoe.

As for you agreeing with Adidias28, this isn't shocking. 

[Uncle Rico]

UR.

To be fair, it was homecoming. I've missed the little group I tailgate with, Buckeye fans not so much. LOL I definitely did not have not have box seats from the HC either, if I did, I'd have been at the Shoe.

As for you agreeing with Adidias28, this isn't shocking. 

Great minds DO think alike, right Adidas? 

I have not heard good things about Buckeye fans at the shoe, although I cannot speak from personal experience.  Although not a spartan fan, I have to admit I was glad to see a state win.  I also appreciated Wisconsin's warm greeting to the Big10 for Nebraska. 

[adidas28]

I'm not at practice, nor at film study.

To the point though, the reality is - when a kid has thrown 3 picks (I don't include the 4th because it was the second to last play of the game, and although a poor decision, it wasn't possible for Trine to change QB's at that point), and hasn't moved the offense in the first three quarters, I think  it's fair to think a change might be worth doing. It's also fair to say that if Coach Land can take credit for the recent success at Trine, or rather, the recent success at Trine can be attributed to what he has done (which I agree with), then it's equally fair that he share in the blame for the teams complete lack of execution coming off a bye week.

While you may think it's not fair for someone to have an opinion when they're not at practice, I'd encourage you to remember that this is college football. That's the name of the game, and it's something you better get use to. Both as a player and a coach it's something you expect at the college level.  Sometimes an opinion is way off base, sometimes they have merit, but most of the time the people with them have no direct knowledge to what the situation is they're speaking on beyond that of what they see.

I guess I don't mind being told I don't know what I'm talking about.  My post was primarily to suggest it's fair to ask why Hargraves was not pulled based on his performance. As I've stated in prior posts, a bad offensive line doesn't always lead to unforced interceptions. From my view point, there were three picks he threw where he was not under any duress, he wasn't running for his life, he had set up and simply made bad decisions. It doesn't take "going to practice or watching film" to see those kind of things.

Typically if a QB is getting sacked and fumbling, or if he throws picks while he's in the process of delivering the football - then you attribute that to poor line play. However if his "internal clock" is just wound to tight (regardless of why), it at worst should cause him to throw the ball out of bounds to early or run instead of throw without real pressure. In regards to his interceptions in particular, this wasn't the case.

I also want to be clear that I don't attribute my comments to the fact it was Hargraves throwing the picks, if it was Rausch or Blackport, I would wonder the same thing. If ESPN was televising the game, they would wonder the same thing. If Trine was Ohio State, Monday on College Football Live, THEY would wonder the same thing. I don't think it would matter who the quarterback was, if they throw four picks, don't move the offense, and lose because of it, people are going to ask "why not let someone else get a chance?" And that's a fair question.

Maybe Raush or Blackport would have gone in and done no better, but at the very least, I think they do just as poorly. But maybe they don't, so why not allow them the opportunity? More then a few times I've been on a staff where we pulled the start after doing quite a bit less wrong then Hargraves did, as a way to try to motivate the offense. After the game, the question we hear is "Is so and so your new starter?" and the answer can be "no, but we needed to do something to try to breath some life into the offense. As of now our original starter is still our starter, but like always we'll evaluate the tape and decide what's best for the football team."

I don't think there is anything wrong with that approach, pulling a guy doesn't mean he's "done" as the starter. As for watching Blackport in warm-ups and saying he would have done "worse", I don't agree with that. I think you can only base your opinion on a kid by what he actually does in the game, and until I see either Rausch or Blackport in a COLLEGE game, I really can't speak to their level of play. Both of them were very successful high school quarterbacks at big schools who played in big conferences. But that's high school.

Obviously they BOTH must just be doing so poorly that Coach Land would have rather stuck with a kid who threw four picks then put either one of those guys in. Though this thought seems completely illogical, it's the only one that I can conclude. If that's the case, either they made a bad choice recruiting them, or they have done a bad job coaching them. Again, at some point, coaching plays a part, so I don't feel like I was out of line for posting the content I posted.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you are out of line - difference in opinion is what makes these boards so much fun. (I know I always seem to be the antagonist.) 

I do have to point out that I have never heard Coach Land take all the credit for the quick turn around and success of the program, as a matter of fact quite the opposite. He heaps praise and kudos on his staff and players.

I wonder what would have happened to the Lions today if they had benched CJ and Stafford for that dreadful first half of offense and went to the back ups in the second half. Do Hill and and Titus Young pull off that comeback?

And, yes Rico great minds DO think alike!

[ThunderHead]

Adidas,

I know you were not calling me disrespectful and I can appreciate your antagonistic view point. I tend to do that too. 

Regarding to Coach Land, in my post I said "Coach Land can take credit for the recent success at Trine, or rather, the recent success at Trine can be attributed to what he has done (which I agree with), then it's equally fair that he share in the blame for the teams complete lack of execution coming off a bye week."

So I was saying that although Coach Land may not request the praise, it will come. It kind of goes the same with criticism, there is merit for praise, then in cases like this there should be merit for criticisim.

And although I see your point, comparing Stafford's abilities to Hargraves just isn't logical in my opinion. We know Hill's capabilities and we know Young's capabilities, in both cases Stafford  and CJ bring a higher ceiling to the table. I'm not sure that's the case at Trine, and like with anything, I won't be convinced of anything till I see Rausch and Blackports capabilities in an actual game. I think yesterday was a good chance to see that. Clearly it wasn't Ryan's day.

[adidas28]

Exactly - It wasn't Ryan's day and it wasn't the Thunder's either - but if you believe in your guy, don't you give him the chance for that signature come back win at least once before going to the bench?