FB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[formerd3db]

TH:
I guess I'm in that "minority" of Michigan fans you mention.   I have known quite a few Michigan State fans of the "majority" you are talking about over the years.

sac:
Indeed, I saw that announcement earlier today as well and viewed the brochures online about it. No doubt those brochures will be available on campus at the various events and the game as well.  While those aspects and buildings are very well needed, like you, I am still kind of shocked (and disappointed) that they have not designated and/or offered to the City any of that $ to go to "fix the stadium" and put the turf in there as well as the practice fields.  Yet, again, perhaps that is just why i.e. because of the City's involvement in owning the stadium.  IMO, Hope has simply got to do this sometime soon as, unfortunately, it can't be denied that we will now be at the bottom of the MIAA as far as football facilities are concerned (although please do not think that I am not appreciative of the stadium that we have because we all know there are some schools that would "give almost anything" to have what we have). However, as we've all discussed in the past here, there are high schools that have better football stadiums that we do and...moreover, it comes down to the safety issues with regards to the turf when it gets in bad shape by mid-season and beyond (we have been lucky so far this year, however, if it rains tomorrow, "look out!" as that may be another story.  Also, perhaps it will take an independent group to propose a fund raising campaign for that, although not sure which other alumni will be able to do that.  It must be nice to have alumni couples (on the Board of Trustees) who have an extra $10 million laying around to donate, as was mentioned, unfortunately, I'm not one of them nor ever will be.   Moreover, I thought that the recent fundraising campaign which led to the buidling of DeVos, the new Science Center, the new Martha Communincations Center as well as the renovation of all the dormatories (such as Kollen, Durfee, Phelps, Gilmore/Dykstra, etc.) with new windows, doors, security, etc., was the largest ever campaign even more than this one.  I would have to go back and look at that literature, however, I thought it was in the 225+million range, although I could be wrong. 

Anyway, it also is without question that it is a great and well deserved tribute to President (Coach) Bultman and his wife Martie that the new student center be named in their honor - their love, commitment and service to the College from their own student days, faculty days and to the present is nicely summarized in the new brochure for this campaign.  Like recently retired Coach Ray Smith and his wife Sue, Coach Bultman and his wife Martie will always have a special place in my heart because they, too, were so wonderful in many ways including faith and teaching life's lessions to not only me, but our daughters as well when they attended Hope (just like they are to all the students) as well as that Coach Bultman was my defensive back coach for four years.  They will be missed after this year, however, it will be a well deserved change for them to enjoy the next chapter in their life for themselves.   

[ThunderHead]

formerd3db,

You may very well be in the minority... and I'm not saying MSU fan's are better, but as a whole, I've found them more level headed. So I wasn't throwing stones, and much as reacting to the large group of Michigan fans I know. (believe it or not I'm not a Spartan fan, I Boiler up - as painful as it is. )

Anyway - the reality is your right regarding the early 1900's and how everyone played programs that are now not on the same level, however no other program acts as if those games mattered more then Michigan fans do. (common formerd3db, you know this to be true.  )

As for the game, I think MSU will win Saturday because I think MSU is the better program right now. And as for disciplinary issues, you're exactly right, it was a different time back when Bo and Duffy roamed the sideline. (media, internet, ect...) However sometime over a few drinks, I'll have to tell you some of things that your boy Bo "over looked" and in some cases "covered up" in AA. It far trumps anything MD or RR allowed in their time. That's not to shed a bad light on Bo, because I have a lot of respect for Bo, it's just that I think there was plenty that happened under his watch that simply wasn't reported and in some cases, prevented from being reported, and unlike today, that was possible.

It's true that MSU has it's bozo's, but Michigan is far from exempt. 

Have a safe trips people...

[ForeverFootball]

TH:
I guess I'm in that "minority" of Michigan fans you mention.   I have known quite a few Michigan State fans of the "majority" you are talking about over the years.

sac:
Indeed, I saw that announcement earlier today as well and viewed the brochures online about it. No doubt those brochures will be available on campus at the various events and the game as well.  While those aspects and buildings are very well needed, like you, I am still kind of shocked (and disappointed) that they have not designated and/or offered to the City any of that $ to go to "fix the stadium" and put the turf in there as well as the practice fields.  Yet, again, perhaps that is just why i.e. because of the City's involvement in owning the stadium.  IMO, Hope has simply got to do this sometime soon as, unfortunately, it can't be denied that we will now be at the bottom of the MIAA as far as football facilities are concerned (although please do not think that I am not appreciative of the stadium that we have because we all know there are some schools that would "give almost anything" to have what we have). However, as we've all discussed in the past here, there are high schools that have better football stadiums that we do and...moreover, it comes down to the safety issues with regards to the turf when it gets in bad shape by mid-season and beyond (we have been lucky so far this year, however, if it rains tomorrow, "look out!" as that may be another story.  Also, perhaps it will take an independent group to propose a fund raising campaign for that, although not sure which other alumni will be able to do that.  It must be nice to have alumni couples (on the Board of Trustees) who have an extra $10 million laying around to donate, as was mentioned, unfortunately, I'm not one of them nor ever will be.   Moreover, I thought that the recent fundraising campaign which led to the buidling of DeVos, the new Science Center, the new Martha Communincations Center as well as the renovation of all the dormatories (such as Kollen, Durfee, Phelps, Gilmore/Dykstra, etc.) with new windows, doors, security, etc., was the largest ever campaign even more than this one.  I would have to go back and look at that literature, however, I thought it was in the 225+million range, although I could be wrong. 

Anyway, it also is without question that it is a great and well deserved tribute to President (Coach) Bultman and his wife Martie that the new student center be named in their honor - their love, commitment and service to the College from their own student days, faculty days and to the present is nicely summarized in the new brochure for this campaign.  Like recently retired Coach Ray Smith and his wife Sue, Coach Bultman and his wife Martie will always have a special place in my heart because they, too, were so wonderful in many ways including faith and teaching life's lessions to not only me, but our daughters as well when they attended Hope (just like they are to all the students) as well as that Coach Bultman was my defensive back coach for four years.  They will be missed after this year, however, it will be a well deserved change for them to enjoy the next chapter in their life for themselves.   

I have to agree with you here.  The one game that we played at Hope, it had rained all week and the high school team had played there and it was dangerous and I would think an embarrassment to the school.  The only other what that was as bad was Kzoo, and they are changing that.  But then, I am spoiled with the turf and chairback seating with drink holders, but before that, Adrian played at the high school.  Not sure how they got recruits then but I do know the stadium and work out facilities were a big draw for my son.

[sac]

formerd3db:

I have to admit to being confused by this latest fundraising effort.  For one, a couple of these projects are well under way.  Second, it says they've already raised $130 million+, which doesn't make sense for a supposedly "new" fundraising effort.

The previous effort "Hope Legacies" or something in a similar catchy phrase raised a little over $150  million and was used to construct the Martha Miller Center, the science expansion, a new residence hall and renovations to others.  I believe much of the money for DeVos Fieldhouse and Van Andel Soccer Stadium also went into this fund.


Its another ambitious campaign and again is a reminder of just how much the campus has changed in a physical sense since I graduated.

[formerd3db]

TH:

Not to "beat dead horse" here because I think both of us along with our colleagues here have all made our points/opinions known on all this topic of dicussion.    So I will make one more (last  ) comment on this.  I don't doubt at all that there were some things overlooked by Schembechler during his time.  However, what I'm talking about is the known aspects that were without question overlooked by Perles and, yes, even Dantonio of recent and that is egegregious without question - no one can deny that if they are truthful.  You or anyone can say attempt to slough it off as "opinion of the coach" as to how he handled a certain situation, however, the ones I'm referring to should have been handled one way and one way only and that was certainly not the way those were handled.  For sure, I would look forward to a time when we could share/swap stories over a beverage with you and simply have fun talking football, coaching and history.   Also, I would agree with you that, for the most part, Michigan fans (and perhaps some college football fans) indeed see Michigan's storied program as among the greatest overall from that early historical standpoint, however, they should because they simply won more games than the other programs back in that day regardless of who played who.  Perhaps some Yale, Harvard, Columbia and Heisman's 1898 Oberlin team might disagree about that, but...to each his own .  Regardless, have a great time at the game tomorrow.  I'll be listening for the score updates while we are playing the bad Britons from Albion!

FF:
Yes, I agree with you also - that field was an embarrassment, but also very, very dangerous.  Although I remember when we played at Trine the last season before they put the turf in - it was horrible not only on that field, but the sidelines as well.  They put down some rubberized/canvas long runner tarps on the sidelines, but it was so soggy and muddy that even with that, we were sinking down a foot into the mush through that!

Also, Adrian's stadium that they shared with Adrian High School i.e. Maple Stadium (nickname of the high school) was actually a very nice stadium.  I loved the "bowl affect" atmoshphere of the permanent concret stands built right into the hill (like Hope's is now) and once they replaced the press box with a new, enlarged one, it was even nicer.  The only drawback was, of course the locker rooms being in the elementary school end at the west side of part of the parking lot and thus having to walk from there to the stadium and also the fact that the stadium was about 3 miles from the campus making it very inconvenient for the students.  So when Adrian College decided to return to an on-campus stadium after more than 40+ years, that was great.  As you know, it is a very nice stadium, great permanent seating and does have that "bowl shape" and atmosphere.  It fits in nicely with their entire new athletic complex next to the "M" Center and, of course, their on-campus ice hockey arena.  The only thing I personally thought would have been an even neater aspect was if they could have put the stadium back where the original old field was from the turn of the century and through the 1940's-early '60s next to their old gym (which is their art center now I believe), however, that was simply impossible because of buildings now occupying that area as well as the fact that even if those buildings were not there, it would have been stupid not to put the stadium where it is now in conjunction with the new athletic complex area.  Anyway, for sure, those new facilities have been a huge boost for Adrian in recruiting and overall enrollment such as for your son as you have mentioned and which was part of the reason why it was done that way in the first place, aside from the fact that the facilities upgrade simply need to be done.  As many have said here and on other boards...the sign of the times requires that colleges, even at our DIII level have to "keep up with the Jones".

[ThunderHead]

FormerD3db,

Now don't go overlooking grace. I rarely have a problem with how coaches handle things regarding displine. I know the MSU situations you're probably speaking off, and although some programs may handle them differently, I have no issue with how Coach D handled his business. I thought perhaps the opposite of you, I thought it spoke to his character as Coach, and in many ways, you'd have know the entire situation and the athletes involved along with their families I think to have a good grasp of why certain decisions were made. Keep in mind Coach D had the full blessings of the AD's office, the Presidents office, and the Players Leaders Group, but I guess I'll leave it at that in the interest of the turning to the game tomorrow. 

And as for Michigan fans having a right to brag because they won more games back when no one cared, well - I suppose, to each his own. I care more about the hear and now. So do most recruits.  Then again, if I had Michigan's record the last 3 years, I'd be screaming for the 1800's with 1-0, or 2-0 undefeated seasons too, back when none of us were alive, and everyone who played the game(s) is no longer walking the earth.  And I'm definitely not one of those guys who thinks all that much of Michigan's "storied" program. Like the winged helmet, a lot of it is fairly "over done". (http://www.spartanjerseys.com/michigan-state-football-jersey-helmet/winged-helmet/)

On a serious note thought, have a great time in Brit Country. I hope that Hope plays them well. 

[formerd3db]

formerd3db:

I have to admit to being confused by this latest fundraising effort.  For one, a couple of these projects are well under way.  Second, it says they've already raised $130 million+, which doesn't make sense for a supposedly "new" fundraising effort.

The previous effort "Hope Legacies" or something in a similar catchy phrase raised a little over $150  million and was used to construct the Martha Miller Center, the science expansion, a new residence hall and renovations to others.  I believe much of the money for DeVos Fieldhouse and Van Andel Soccer Stadium also went into this fund.


Its another ambitious campaign and again is a reminder of just how much the campus has changed in a physical sense since I graduated.

sac:

You said it much better than I.  I agree with you as well that I was somewhat confused and surprised at this new fundraising effort as well.  First, as you mentioned, the Legacy campaign raised over $150 million and that the DeVos and VanAndel contributions to that actually put it over the $200 million range as I was alluding to as I recall.  Secondly, while I had heard from reliable college sources last year that a new music hall was in the works, I must admit I was somewhat surprised also at these other projects.  Certainly the new student center in honor of the Bultman's is needed and, again, an appropriate tribute, as much of the DeWitt Center has been, by necessity, taken over by the administration due to the loss of old Van Raalte as was mentioned in the new campaign brochure.  And that is fine as DeWitt is a great building for that.  Yet, I also now wonder if they will keep the theatre there - you and I know, although others may not that Hope owns the old thetre downtown just two short blocks away where the theatrical offices are along with classrooms - and also since there apparently is going to be a small auditorium/theatre in the new Bultman Student Center.  Third, I was very surprised that there are no current plans in this project for an additional dorm - which, IMO, is badly needed in view of the College's current enrollment (which they want to keep at this level and which I think they should).  I personally think they should build a new dorm similar to that of College East behind the now "old" Dow Athetic/Intramural Center and call it College West and locate it right across the street from the Martha Miller Communications Building where the Holland City Skate/Roller Park is/was (I believe that the City of Holland was swapping that parcel with the College for another land parcel, although that may have been put on hold - I'm not exactly sure). 

Also, and this might seem a strange thought to some people, yet I can't help but now feel that a building such as the Maas Center, which is connected to Phelps Hall and the main cafeteria is now somewhat obsolete, once the student center gets built.  I may be old fashioned, but I was so disappointed when they put that there in the first place as they tore down one of the old historic houses on campus (the old Knickerbacher Fraternity House), which IMO should have/could have been restored for the same purpose.  While Maas was made possible by a $ gift from that family of alums with a very successful business and who contributed heavily in many ways to the DeWitt Center, still making a "modern" building for the sake of upgrading to modern, was IMO, not what I wanted to see.  The old Knich house could have been renovated for the same purposes.  However, alas, the College administration at that time believed they had already preserved enough of Hope's important historical buildings such as Vorheeves, VanVlect (and the plans eventually for Graves) saying at that time (as I recall)..."you can't save them all".  Of course, the loss of historic VanRaalte is another story for another time.

Regardless, as you and I have alluded to, I think the College really needs to come to a comprimise with the City and resolve the football stadium issue.  However, my "gut feeling" is that they will continue to put this on the "backburner" i.e. on hold, now that they've announced and decided to go forth with this huge new construction campaign.  And just when I almost thought...Hope's campus now is up-to-date and has everything it needs for awhile.

Anyway, my apologies to our colleagues here for this tangent non-football conversation, although it somewhat qualifies in regards to the stadium issues we've discussed and...besides, it is Friday night and why not add this to the discussion in addition to football?  What else would all you guys be (or want to be) doing on a Friday night like this?

[formerd3db]

TH:

Well, I guess I will just have to disagree with you with regards to some of those recent situations at MSU that you mention.  I am a lot closer to that situation than you might know and I do know some of the specific details of those.  I am all for grace for sure, however, there comes a time when one has to be held accountable for their actions and, IMO, those players involved were given one too many chances i.e. more than their fair share of grace.  Family situations and backgrounds can only be used as contributory factors so much and I personally do not agree with using that as an excuse for everything.  Being a former coach at the DI level, you know that is true at many programs and, I'm sorry, but there is simply no excuse for that.  I don't care how poor a background some kid comes from, the bottom line is when they get to college, they know and are informed what the rules are and what is right and wrong and they really know the difference.  So when they blatently continue to make the wrong choices regardless of who influences them, IMO, there is no excuse, no excuse.  One chance, okay, break it a second time knowingly, you should forfeit your privileges - period.  Also, this same applies to the Floyd/Kelly situation at ND, IMO.  Okay, so I will step down from the attempted "soap box" now.

Anyway, thanks for the well-wishes for tomorrow.  We will need all the help we can get (and give ourselves!). Indeed, I'm hoping for a Hope victory tomorrow! Unfortunately, I might now be late for the start of the game as I was just informed this evening that a very dear friend of my late parents, and one who I was very close to, passed away yesterday, so I must (by my own choice) attend the funeral tomorrow AM, then "blast over" to the game.  I will not be able to now play in the Alumni Lacrosse Game before the football game, but...there are other more important things in life as we all know.  Later, friend and I wish you too, as well as all our other colleagues here all have a great day tomorrow what ever game you are at.  Safe travels.

[ThunderHead]

FormerD3db,

I'm not doubting your closeness to the MSU situation, and yes, I suppose as a former coach I have a skewed view. However I also fundamentally believe that people have different paradigms and that plays a big role in things regarding the decisions young men make. Just because you arrive at college and are told the "rules" doesn't mean you can erase 17 years of up-bringing. What's sad to me is that sometimes guys get themselves into trouble and people are more willing to dump them then help them. I'm not saying that's your view, nor am I saying that at some point you don't have to get ultra serious about consequences, but as for limited grace, well - I think we can both agree that if a certain creator that some schools were built around used the limited grace theory with His people, we'd all be in real trouble.  At least I would.   So while I am sure you did a great job with your son, not everyone is lucky enough to have great fathers, or even men who care much about them beyond their football ability. IMO I would rather have a coach error on the side of staying in a kids life (mentoring), and keeping football in a kids life (teaching tool), then not.

I mean the reality is, by taking football away from these guys, at first or second attempt, you loose accountability with the kid you recruited. And as fans, what do we care? I mean really, if Coaches kick guys off teams and they are now "out of football, and often out school" do we feel better? Do we become happy the kid is now out on the streets and off the team? Does that somehow make us feel like justice was served? As if "that will teach him"? Do we point at him and tell our sons "see, this what happens when you break the law, team rules, ect..."

The reality is we don't care all that much about the 90 student non-accident causing DUI's that will probably take place in EL this weekend, UNLESS one of them is a football player. Now it's news. Now we want "justice". Kick him off the team and we all feel better...and yet, what does that do? Make you feel like your program is "disciplined"?  Do you really think that's in the best interest of the kid?

Okay - now I'll step off my soap box.  I just don't believe you give up on people. I'm not saying you agree with "giving up on people" and I totally see your side of it Formerd3db, and I know a lot of people see it that way, and yet - we'll just have to agree to disagree, as you said. 

Safe travels, and I'm very sorry to hear about your friend. Prayers to his loved ones.

[Uncle Rico]

There seems to be a fine line between grace and enabling.  One of the challenges of coaching is determining where that line is and how to apply it.

They have to be teachers as well as coaches.  The X's and O's.  Recruiting.  Overseeing 100+ college age kids.  The pressure to win.  The fans and the critics.  The long hours.  Balance that with a family at home.   What a life!     Ya gotta love it or you won't last long!

[Uncle Rico]

TH:
For sure, I would look forward to a time when we could share/swap stories over a beverage with you and simply have fun talking football, coaching and history.

At the ThunderBus, Trine University, before...at the half...or after the Hope game Saturday, Oct 22nd.  I am sure Let it Rain will be there, and might even be able to round up some other forum members if they are willing to reveal their secret identities.   

 

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[sflzman]

Wind could be a major factor in Alma's passing game today

[hopewatcher]

Good Morning to all...Its a great day for football in West Michigan (although a 'little' windy  )....
I don't think there is any disagreement from anyone, including the Hope Administration, Community, certainly the football staff and players that changes must take place to Municipal Stadium...the current playing field is in tough condition, even when it is dry...the grounds crew does the best they can, but are fighting an uphill battle...and, although there were some improvements made last summer, the practice field is not the best either.....and I think everybody would have liked to include improvements as part of the Greater Hope campaign, but there are some logisitcs issues still being worked through that may have messed up the deal with a premature announcement....As has been stated here before a joint committee of the City of Holland, Hope College, and Holland Public Schools to look at improvements and long term management of the facility has been formed and is working.....The Stadium is City owned, but used by Hope & Holland HS for games...as I understand it, this is some kind of a rental agreement.....and that works OK from a legal standpoint...the problem comes with the improvements.....and how to financially pull them off.....apparantly there are laws/rules restricting the use of public funds to support a non-public/religious institution, plus some rules around co-mingling public and private funds that need to be worked through. I'm told that the lawyers and accountants are actively working on it, but have not worked out all of the details.....I guess it seems like this part should be fairly easy as it appears to have been done before, but some things are holding it up...I really believe there is a desire on the part of all of the parties to get it done (I've heard it can still get fully or partially done for next season), but the details have to get worked out first...but, it is not due to a lack of desire or effort......We're really hoping for next year.......It'll be good for Hope College, Holland Public Schools, the football program, and the community...plus it is a neccessary part of staying cometitive and proving a safe playing environment going forward.......

[Uncle Rico]

Missed most of this game watching the Michigan game.  Trine wins 26-0.  Sounds like defense played well.   Hargraves 10-14 with 2 TD's and 0 ints.  Trine rushed for 263 yards.  Heard Biller and Brown were out but need to confirm.   Trine turned 4 turnovers into 4 TD's.

Olivet leads K-Zoo 14-10 with 10 minutes left. 

Disappointing performance for Michigan.  Wonder if they would have been better off with Gardner in the whole time.  Denard made some bad throws.  But Gardner missed a couple open receivers too.  Sigh....wait till next year! 

[sflzman]

Yes, Biller and Brown were "officially" scratched about 30 mins before kickoff when starting lineups were turned in.

Alma offensively had 7 dropped passes. Trine's rushing game was good, mixed up their looks, Hagraves was also able to find open reeivers when he needed to.