FB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Mr. Ypsi]

I am probably a little naive when it comes to how athletic scholarships work, but I would think that if you are good enough to get an athletic scholarship at a DI school, AND you are also concerned about receiving a quality education, you can make that known at the time of recruitment so that it is understood from the beginning that you intend to get an education along with playing football.  If a coach does not feel you will be dedicated enough for football, I suspect you will be able to find a school that will be more willing to work with you.

Agreed.  If a coach is unwilling to bend for class schedules (within reason), there is bound to be a better school with scholarships.

Probably part of the problem is that (at the athletically-elite D1 schools) coaches have gotten so used to 'students' who don't give a sh*t about an education that they are not willing to bend for those who DO.

I yearn for the days of coaches like Bo Schembechler.  While I was at grad school at UM, a fellow TA got leaned on pretty hard by an asst. coach to change a grade for a football player.  He was a foreign student and came to me for advice on what to do.  I told him to tell the department head, who promptly call Bo.  The asst. coach was cleaning out his desk later that same day! 

[formerd3db]

I am probably a little naive when it comes to how athletic scholarships work, but I would think that if you are good enough to get an athletic scholarship at a DI school, AND you are also concerned about receiving a quality education, you can make that known at the time of recruitment so that it is understood from the beginning that you intend to get an education along with playing football.  If a coach does not feel you will be dedicated enough for football, I suspect you will be able to find a school that will be more willing to work with you.

Agreed. If a coach is unwilling to bend for class schedules (within reason), there is bound to be a better school with scholarships.

Probably part of the problem is that (at the athletically-elite D1 schools) coaches have gotten so used to 'students' who don't give a sh*t about an education that they are not willing to bend for those who DO.

I yearn for the days of coaches like Bo Schembechler.  While I was at grad school at UM, a fellow TA got leaned on pretty hard by an asst. coach to change a grade for a football player.  He was a foreign student and came to me for advice on what to do.  I told him to tell the department head, who promptly call Bo.  The asst. coach was cleaning out his desk later that same day!

Awesome story, Mr. Ypsi, +k.  I agree with your comments as well.  Regarding the Northwestern situation, I can't imagine that Head Coach Fitzgerald would not have a similar attitude/policy like the one Bo had that you describe, given what we have seen about him as a player in his days at NU and now in his coaching career there, although admittedly, I don't know him at all.  Yet, I, too, knew about the atmosphere that Bo had that you describe there.

I realize that it is DIII, however, that was the same atmosphere and policy that we had a Hope College (and still do) back in my own playing days there.  Now retired Head Coach Ray Smith (a DI player and All-American himself at UCLA) had his rules that as a player, you were required to go to class and labs on those days in the afternoons those were scheduled instead of coming to practice and it did NOT affect your playing time.  Of course, it was encouraged and worked out for our schedules to minimize that as much as possible and it ended up being only one day during the week for almost everyone that had to.  However, if you blew off class and came to practice, that is the only situation it could affect your playing time or, at the very least, make you a member of the "1000 Yard Club" after practice for a very long time (i.e. running 1,000 yards at the end of each day's practice)-ouch!   Aside from the "breathtaking" experience that was , it was also no fun in trying to make it back to the locker room, shower and get to the cafeteria before it closed!  I never was a member of that prestigious club, however, several of my teammates missed a few meals that way and had to settle for a crappy slice of pizza down on the corner grease pub and/or hit McDonald's on a few occasions!

In all seriousness, though, you are right that there are places still even in DI where the focus is in the proper priority. You can have football and academics working together and succeed with high success.  But my point also, was that the athlete has to be on board with that also and, again, I still have my doubts about the Colter situation, although I am not so adamant as to not admit I could be wrong about that specific situation.  Anyway, thanks for sharing your insight and the Schembechler story.  I won't even ask about how it was in that regard at Eastern Michigan when you were teaching there, although I have an idea as I think you have shared a few tid-bits about that in the past.

[D306]

Mr. Ypsi

Thank You for relaying that story, I do not want to sound like a shill but BO and many others from that era were truly like a father or great mentor.
Unfortunatley it has become quite the business at every level, tough to see that integrity at many schools.
Regarding "gun to your head" finances, sadly it is that way for many Athletes whom wish to be students.

It flat out amazes me how many players are 5th year seniors, I see some 6 year players in many of the Uiversities. MSU had a DL guy whom arrived early in his Seinor year of HS and still was on his 6th full season at MSU last year. Grey shirt, Red shirt and arrived early.

It is more than possible to be a solid student with a "pre-med" or speciality based undergrad, it is about placing that as a priority and taking advantage of the tutors and optional dates to accommidate the travel etc...   Not easy but that is the price you pay to get the advantages and opportunities that so few ever will.

I still say it is out of whack ( technical term ) as I have 3 children whom all attended universities with good to outstanding grades.  2 as Athletes 1 turned down the monies to pursue program and study abraod opprotunites.  The reason I say that is College is supposed to be about education, my child whom turned down monies hits on 2 great disparities in the Scholarship game. 1st she is female ( less monies for athletics as they draw less income to the university ) 2nd she is/was extremely high GPA, ACT/SAT etc..  and had to fight of her monies / frowned upon if she was to play a sport  indfference to accept educational opportunites could not accept both and get same monies. True the stipulations were location / program specific I am sure she could have found a University to accept the both, yet not at same academic level or reputation.   

Good topic that will continue to become a more of a abused area, or maybe just more visable with all of the means of Social media now.

[D306]

D3DB

I was wondering if you could help me with a little info RE: Hope.

Does Hope have Club Hockey for Women?

My son mentioned to me a family friend of his was asking him about Hope College, she has attended a Soccer Game/s at Hope and liked the "feel" as did her daughter. The family is familiar with the Holland area.
The daughter is looking into locations she may be able to get a great education and play Hockey and/or Soccer as she excels in both. Very Good student from a high level parochial school in the Metro Detroit Area, her profile looks solid for a MIAA school. She wants to stay close enough to home to have parents attend when possible. This is all assuming she gets accepted Academically and has the talent, drive to play on the College level in either of the sports.

I know Hope has a strong Soccer program but I am unsure if they offer Hockey

[formerd3db]

D3DB

I was wondering if you could help me with a little info RE: Hope.

Does Hope have Club Hockey for Women?

My son mentioned to me a family friend of his was asking him about Hope College, she has attended a Soccer Game/s at Hope and liked the "feel" as did her daughter. The family is familiar with the Holland area.
The daughter is looking into locations she may be able to get a great education and play Hockey and/or Soccer as she excels in both. Very Good student from a high level parochial school in the Metro Detroit Area, her profile looks solid for a MIAA school. She wants to stay close enough to home to have parents attend when possible. This is all assuming she gets accepted Academically and has the talent, drive to play on the College level in either of the sports.

I know Hope has a strong Soccer program but I am unsure if they offer Hockey

D306:

My apologies for the delay in this reply.  Hope has a DIII club collegiate hockey team for men, however, not for women.  Most people think of the club collegiate programs as just that i.e. club and for some of the sports, that is true.  However, Hope's hockey team is in reality a "virtual varsity" in that the college pays for all the ice arena time, the team uses the official college buses for travel, the college also contributes a lot of $ for equipment and uniforms (although the players do have to pay some fees as well), and they play in the Central Collegiate Hockey Conference of the national American Collegiate Hockey Association.  The ACHA is run exactly like the NCAA hockey, with the same eligibility rules, academic requirements, same rules, same recruiting rules in all aspects, full coaching staffs, etc., etc., and has their own national championship each year.  Calvin and Adrian also both have DIII teams in the league (Adrian has two for men). Hope often gets upwards of 800 to near 1,000 spectators for their home games, particularly the huge rival games such as with Calvin or perhaps with Grand Valley State, etc.

Hope's program really should be a true varsity program and I believe that some day it will be (similar to how the lacrosse programs evolved along with the MIAA itself for that sport).  However, the problem is Title IX, i.e. as you have somewhat touched on.  Hope would have to add a women's sport comparable to hockey and I'm not sure there is the interest there in women's hockey, like there is at Adrian.  I've often wondered if Hope could re-establish their women's field hockey team to fill for that requirement for making men's hockey an NCAA program.  $ is not the problem for men's hockey because they already spend it just like they would if it were an NCAA program.

Adrian, of course, also has NCAA Div III men's and women's hockey teams, in addition to their two club collegiate hockey teams, one which one the ACHA National Championship last year.  However, they routinely fill their arena at games for all of these teams- it certainly helps that they have their own on-campus ice arena that is paid for already!  They also rent out skate time to the Adrian community, which helps pay for the cost of maintaining the ice arena as I understand it. 

Overall, I'm sure your friend's daughter would love the Hope women's soccer program because that is a great one as well, just like the men's (you've seen the soccer/lacrosse stadium, which is really fantastic).  However, unfortunately, I don't see a women's club collegiate hockey team at Hope for now in the immediate future-at least I have not heard of any talk or interest regarding the same.  However, I can ask my son-in-law as he is the goalie coach for Hope's men's team.

[formerd3db]

A sad day for Hope.  The hockey team lost the ACHA National championship title game today 1-0 to Adrian's team down in Florida (the arena where the 16 team national championship tournament was held this year was the NHL Florida Panthers practice facility).  Adrian has won it 3 years in a row now, unbelievable.  Hope has been national runner-up 3 out of the last 4 years.  I think we're jinxed.   At least they got to the title game again, but not winning one is getting to be very tough and old.  Oh well.  Anyway, congrats to Adrian.

[D306]

D3DB

Great info and detail as usual
Tough lose the  Bulldogs.  Nice to see the title stay in the state and MIAA

Sorry the delay in reply RE: my original question
Returning from Florida with the crew, a little lighter in the wallet ( lost every skin and possible small bet we have while playing Golf, some I was not even aware I was in😂 ) and burnt from the sun hanging on the berm for Tiger Spring Training games 

Regarding this young lady, I passed on your reply and strongly encouraged her to pay a visit and enquire with Hope Admission  I believe Hope would be a good fit for her.
Special needs educator or special needs Nurse / PA is her current interest


Well onto something outside my question and back to sports   There is a pretty solid group of young men heading to the MIAA and GLIAC to play football from the gossip last week   These young men are mostly SE Michigan based as that is the area the  crew of guys that attend our annual Tigers Spring Training event reside - coach etc....

[ExTartanPlayer]

We bantered a few weeks ago on this board (and the CCIW board) about the Northwestern unionization case.  This article, published today on Grantland, has a few key passages which I agree with:

http://grantland.com/features/northwestern-ncaa-college-athletics-union/

In particular, one thing I tried to hammer in my comments on the CCIW board:

"Let's say, as a hypothetical, that you have a cousin/daughter/friend/niece named Julie. Bright kid. Fiddling around in her dorm room junior year, she invents a new kind of combustion engine that makes cars 50 times more fuel-efficient. It's worth a billion dollars. Julie wants to sell it to GM, but — whoops — it turns out the university owns it and she gets nothing, because she's on an engineering scholarship. Tough break, but Julie can't really complain, right? Because at least she got the college experience.

Or say Julie has a brother named Max. Max writes a novel sophomore year that's the biggest thing since Harry Potter. Months on the best-seller list, major movie deal, the works. Only Max not only can't see a penny from his work — that all goes to the school; thanks, English scholarship! — he also makes the mistake of selling an autographed copy at a book fair. Boom, Max is banned from writing for a year. Not touching a pen will teach Max discipline, because Max obviously has character issues. Probably comes from a troubled home.

Now, if Max and Julie were your cousins/kids/friends/whatever, would you be OK with this deal for them? Of course not, right? In any area other than sports, where decades of rhetoric have beaten us down till we can't see the obvious, you would say that someone who creates a product of enormous value from their own talent and hard work is entitled to many, if not all, of the rewards resulting from that product.  You would say that any contract that worked like an athletic scholarship is padded-wallpaper insane."

And another passage later that I particularly agree with:

"One of the neat strategies you'll see the NCAA's defenders deploy in the wake of the Northwestern ruling is to start throwing out a million practical questions that have yet to be resolved, as though, if you can't immediately answer all of them, they must be totally impossible to solve. "I don't know what happens to their meal cards!" you're supposed to cry in this situation, throwing your hands up to the heavens. "Therefore change is futile and I have no choice but to agree that the student-athlete system is the key to success in the classroom, on the field, and in life!"

But this is ludicrous. Reform of a big organization like the NCAA is inevitably going to involve a lot of tough questions. Maybe Ultimate Frisbee at Middlebury isn't a job in the same way basketball at Kentucky is. Maybe some provision will be necessary to make sure women's sports are treated fairly. But you know what? People build multinational corporations and reasonably functional democracies. People deal with trickier problems than college-sports revenue distribution all the time. Raising objections as though the mere existence of practical difficulties shuts down the conversation is the stalling tactic of an exhausted debater. It's the move of someone with nothing left to defend."

[emma17]

If Julie is smart enough to invent a new engine she should be smart enough to understand that if her invention is aided by the research labs, professors and classmates of her university- she will be at best sharing in the rewards.

Now, if Julie is so smart and industrious that she can develop this invention entirely independent of the resources provided by the university, then she should go full steam ahead in her privately funded lab and manufacturing plant, resulting in 100% ownership of the profits from her idea.

[formerd3db]

Well, you all put forth some interesting thoughts on the issue.  However, while I'm probably in the minority among many on this issue, nothing is going to change my opinion and I am simply not in favor of it.  It doesn't matter that the university is bringing in $; one aspect that many people seem to forget is that the majority of athletic departments are in the red as they fund all the other sports, pay other "true" employees that make it even possible for these kids to play football, etc.  Moreover, the kids are given a free education period.  If they want spending $, then indeed there needs to be major NCAA reform (and that, I agree, is the NCAA's fault) to allow them to have jobs to EARN their "play $", just like every other student who has to work their arses off to put themselves through school, like many people we know had to do it.  I'm tired of this "you owe me" attitude in today's society by so many of our young people.  Nobody owes them anything, period.

I agree with the Stanford University President who came out the other day and said that if these players want to be employees, then they should just simply forgo college and go directly into the professional ranks.  Of course, the NFL, NBA would have to change their one year rules, however, there certainly are the other professional development and minor league teams for them to go that route initially-and if they are really that good (as many of them think they are), then they should have no problem making it to the big leagues.  And, if this unionization thing really goes through, then those players will need to submit their W-2 forms, pay taxes (have their FICA, SS, etc. taken out) of their paychecks - let's see how much they like that-you'll hear the whining, complaining about that.

I've already posted my opinion on Colter's pathetic claim that he didn't have time for pre-med classes-that's simply absurd.  Perhaps he wouldn't have had what it takes to make it through such a curriculum anyway. The real bottom line is exactly what was put forth in some of the media articles the other day and that is what is really the underlying reason that this is being pushed, fueled by those who are pushing the issue, aside from the $ issue. I hope this gets defeated in the end, but then again, it doesn't matter what I think nor will it make any difference.  IMO, a very sad state of our society, but...that's just the way it is.

[formerd3db]

D306:

Thanks and you are welcome.  Also, glad to hear that your Florida trip went well.  We were just down there two weeks ago for a quick trip for a conference I had to go to, but it wasn't a great trip.

Thanks for the info on the fb players headed this way.  Also, hope your friend's daughter likes Hope.  The programs she is interested in are good there. 

I wanted to go to U of M's spring game Sat, however, have to make a quick trip to Chicago for my wife's brother's memorial service (coming back Sat night) as he died about 3 weeks ago.  Anyway, hope all is well with you and yours. Take care.

former

[emma17]

Plus k formerd3db

[ExTartanPlayer]

It doesn't matter that the university is bringing in $; one aspect that many people seem to forget is that the majority of athletic departments are in the red as they fund all the other sports, pay other "true" employees that make it even possible for these kids to play football, etc. 

You make a reasonable claim that athletic departments must pay other "true" employees, such as the equipment manager, the janitor, etc.  Fair enough.  No doubt, the athlete spends an equal amount of time and effort during the week preparing for the game on Saturday as the janitor spends cleaning the stadium bathrooms.  Which of these gentlemen is more essential to the product on the field on Saturday - the starting quarterback or the janitor?  Which one has a skill set that's harder to replicate? 

(Not to put down janitors and equipment managers, just making the point)

Peter Ohr's ruling made it clear that the issue was not whether players are "paid enough" for their trouble, but whether they are employees; in fact, part of his justification for ruling them employees was that they ARE compensated with a scholarship.  His ruling does not mean that athletes in revenue sports now must be paid; rather, it means that athletes in revenue sports should be considered employees, rather than students, and should have rights as such.

One sidebar on this point: one of the reasons that many college athletic departments operate so far in the red is that schools pay millions of dollars to coaches and spend millions of dollars on facilities in the name of wooing the athletes (who they can't pay or bid for).  We all have at least one friend or acquaintance in big-time college athletics; we all have some story or knowledge of the exorbitant NON-FINANCIAL benefits the athletes are provided (for example, a friend of mine who ran on the Pitt track team told stories of the vast quantities of protein bars, Muscle Milk, and Gatorade awaiting them after every practice).  This horse has already left the barn long ago, but I think one thing you'd see in a free market is that coaching salaries and expenditures on those "extras" would have been somewhat lower all along, because instead of spending a bajillion dollars on a players' lounge with six Xboxes and leather couches and personal masseuses, the colleges could have just offered the players something which met their more immediately-pressing need: a paycheck!  In that hypothesis, compensation for athletes would not put athletic departments any further in the red than they already are.  The money would just be spent differently.

With all of that said: as I have expressed already, my preference is not that all athletic departments be required to provide athletes a paycheck, but rather that revenue-sport athletes be granted some rights to negotiate their own compensation, collectively or individually, and accept endorsements (more on this one below).  An overlooked piece of the story: if collegiate athletes in revenue sports do form a union, the colleges still have the right to say "No" to providing anything more than a scholarship...although the overwhelming likelihood is that some schools, seeking a competitive advantage, would offer more than that.  Gee, almost like an actual labor market works.  People have skills.  Those skills are in demand.  People with a need or want for those skills find a way to attract the people with skills. 

Moreover, the kids are given a free education period...I'm tired of this "you owe me" attitude in today's society by so many of our young people.  Nobody owes them anything, period.

No, they aren't just "given" a free education.  They provide a valuable service/skill/product in return for that education; and it's a service/skill/product that is NOT easily replaceable or fungible.  Furthermore, it is a service/skill/product that people would likely pay far more for than the regulations currently allow.  That's the crux of my issue.  I don't think the athletes are asking for anything more than a chance to realize their own worth and have some basic employee protections.

I agree with the Stanford University President who came out the other day and said that if these players want to be employees, then they should just simply forgo college and go directly into the professional ranks.

If that was a viable option, don't you think they would do that?  I'm quite sure they would!  They already do in baseball, where this is allowed and a viable farm system exists...but the age restrictions and lack of minor/developmental leagues in basketball and football make that an unattractive option.  Is an NFL team really going to draft a top prospect that goes and plays Arena football for three years instead of going to college?  One basketball prospect did eschew college in favor of a professional season in Europe before being drafted, but that, also, is an unappealing option for an 18-year-old that's likely never left his hometown.

I've bantered about this with some friends.  I would actually favor expansion of the NBA Developmental League into a full-fledged Developmental League with a farm franchise assigned to each NBA team and no age restriction.  That way, 18-year-olds with designs on a pro career and no interest in college could pursue that immediately; those who desired a college education in additional to pursuit of a basketball career could attend college.

Part of the problem with that is that it would cost the NBA money and the NBA owners have no interest - the system, as currently constructed, works beautifully for them!  Their potential incoming stars go spend a year playing "college" basketball, develop fan followings and become celebrities in their own right, and THEN come to the NBA after a year.  It's a year's worth of free marketing for all of their potential stars.  The NFL, likewise, has no incentive to relax their age restrictions or start a farm system for the same reason - they LOVE the current system, where their players enter the league after a few years of college stardom.  Think of how many Johnny Manziel #2 jerseys will be sold within days of his being drafted by an NFL team owing to his massive popularity.  Why would they change the system when it works great for them already?

And, if this unionization thing really goes through, then those players will need to submit their W-2 forms, pay taxes (have their FICA, SS, etc. taken out) of their paychecks - let's see how much they like that-you'll hear the whining, complaining about that.

You say this quite smugly, but I think they would gladly submit W-2 forms and pay taxes because that would imply that they were getting paid something to have taxes taken out of!  It's hard to tax a paycheck that doesn't exist!  If I get paid $X and pay 30% taxes on it, I still go home with 70% of X dollars.  If I get paid zero dollars and pay zero taxes, I go home with zero dollars.  Even if the value of the scholarship was considered part of the taxable income (which it isn't, to my knowledge), they would still presumably come out ahead of where they are now...and if not, that's fine, then the market dictated their worth.

I've already posted my opinion on Colter's pathetic claim that he didn't have time for pre-med classes-that's simply absurd.  Perhaps he wouldn't have had what it takes to make it through such a curriculum anyway.

This is the second time you've played the "He just didn't have what it takes" card; I doubt that is the case.  I think he's showing admirable courage and articulation in this case.  Someone had to make the first move.  You really think it's that implausible for a Division I player be steered away from a more academically demanding major, or prohibited from missing class for football practice?

I hope this gets defeated in the end, but then again, it doesn't matter what I think nor will it make any difference.  IMO, a very sad state of our society, but...that's just the way it is.

I wish to close with a quote from Stewart Mandel in response to the ruling.

"There is plenty of gray area in between those who are salaried professionals and those who are not allowed to accept a free sandwich. The NCAA's age-old amateurism model is already under widespread attack. In the span of about 15 years, a high-end coach's salary has jumped from $1 million to $7 million. Coordinators have gone from making a professor's salary to a mid-level CEO's salary. And an athletic director is receiving a near-$20,000 bonus because one of his wrestlers won an NCAA title. Meanwhile, that same wrestler would be ineligible if he signed an autograph for $20. That dichotomy is no longer ethically tenable."

I think the bolded passage is key.  Ultimately, the outcome that I hope for is NOT turning collegiate athletes into salaried professionals, but rather finding a way to relax the draconian restrictions that prevent athletes from accepting the HINT of a benefit from an athletic department or booster.  I don't want them to get paychecks.  But I do want them to be able to ask their coach for a loan if they're a few bucks short on rent this month - especially given that, for some of these kids, the coach might be one of the only adults they have a close relationship with that has the financial means to offer that.  I do want them to be able to sign a few autographs in the local bookstore and get paid a fee for showing up, or shoot a car commercial if the local dealership asks them to.  I want them to be able to sell their own memorabilia (A.J. Green is given a game-worn jersey by the school, but he's not allowed to sell it?  Isn't the idea of a gift that it's yours and you can do anything you want with it?)  While I don't think that unionization is a viable model, I am glad that the athletes won because I hope it will eventually force the NCAA to offer the players a chance to negotiate for something better than they're getting right now.

[D306]

My only comment is they opened Pandora's box.
Hope they like what comes with being accountable, when players get their DUI, or questionable actions and lose their Scholly we will see how smart they think they are. This opens the door for Universities to "cut" players whom are a bust as it is always easy to find a way to show player broke a few rules. Just think how the Universities will work this angle, man these guys will be paid more than most of us, between under the table monies and educational, housing costs, oh yes the mom or dad just became a "adviser" or adjunct Prof. maybe a trainer or "quality control"
I trust it fails, yet if it hopefully it raises a little more accountability in the NCAA, they are a joke.

[emma17]

My only comment is they opened Pandora's box.
Hope they like what comes with being accountable, when players get their DUI, or questionable actions and lose their Scholly we will see how smart they think they are. This opens the door for Universities to "cut" players whom are a bust as it is always easy to find a way to show player broke a few rules. Just think how the Universities will work this angle, man these guys will be paid more than most of us, between under the table monies and educational, housing costs, oh yes the mom or dad just became a "adviser" or adjunct Prof. maybe a trainer or "quality control"
I trust it fails, yet if it hopefully it raises a little more accountability in the NCAA, they are a joke.

And don't leave out the impact it will have on high school athletes that will now do even less in school because they see college football as their pay day.