FB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[ExTartanPlayer]

I guess that I'm just curious why you're so opposed to the idea that "student athletes" could also be employees. Kids there on an engineering scholarship can get desk attendant jobs, food service jobs, etc in which they work for the school and receive wages. Why can't athletes, when they're bringing substantially more "financial" value to the institution?

There's a scene in a movie where a faculty member angrily declares "students cannot and MUST NOT be teachers!" and a student merely counters by asking "Why? Why can't we do things our way?"

So that's my question. You're opposed to the idea that a student-athlete can also be defined as an employee. Why?

[formerd3db]

I guess that I'm just curious why you're so opposed to the idea that "student athletes" could also be employees. Kids there on an engineering scholarship can get desk attendant jobs, food service jobs, etc in which they work for the school and receive wages. Why can't athletes, when they're bringing substantially more "financial" value to the institution?

There's a scene in a movie where a faculty member angrily declares "students cannot and MUST NOT be teachers!" and a student merely counters by asking "Why? Why can't we do things our way?"

So that's my question. You're opposed to the idea that a student-athlete can also be defined as an employee. Why?

ExTartan:

You and I just have a different philosophy with regards to that question.  To me, being able to play college football is a privilege , nothing more than that, regardless of what level one participates at.  Where it not for the colleges/universities, obviously a student-athlete would simply not have that opportunity at all.  The intent of going to college is obviously for the education, not to play football, although you and I and all our colleagues know that a great number of college football players (yes, even at all levels) see it as just the opposite way. Yet, in reality, the athletic/academic balance (which those of us who played/work in/believe in at the DIII level) is what needs to be continued and strived at as being the standard at all collegiate levels.

IMO, you are equating two entirely different scenarios with regards to your example of engineering students getting desk attendant jobs, etc. i.e. being employees in that regard.  I never said I was opposed to football student-athletes being allowed to do the same (i.e. have jobs during the year and summer, thus, their being employees of their schools) and to assist in helping to pay for their living expenses, just like many other students (athlete or not) have to do as it has been for decades.  I've already said I agree with you and others that, in that regard, the NCAA needs to make drastic changes to allow the same standards for both.  However, again, I don't buy into the premise at all (no pun intended) regarding the arguments we've all discussed about how much $ the athletes help bring in for the college or university-I've already expressed my opinions on that and as to all the additional expenses the institutions have to deal with in the overall athletic budgets. We all know that the majority of programs are in the red.  And if you let the football players become employees with regard to their scholarships, that will need to be extended to all student-athletes (both men and women) receiving athletic scholarships in all sports, irrespective of whether that sport is revenue producing or not. 

We can discuss all this and the unionization aspects "ad nauseum", but I think we've all pretty much expressed our opinions on all these aspects.  Again, it just comes down to a difference of philosophy, just like many aspects in life.  Anyway, I do respect your opinion and philosophy on this.  It has been/is a good debate.  We'll all just have to see what plays out. Yet, as has been reported in one of the most recent media articles I read yesterday, the final outcome of all this may take years to occur via the courts, regardless of how the union appeal, Northwestern players' vote outcome as well as whatever the NCAA finally decides with regards to the potential rules and policy changes it just announced the other day that are now being considered.       

[ExTartanPlayer]

Fair enough.  I also respect your opinion; it had just occurred to me that, amidst some of the circular discussion that we've been having, I wasn't sure I had the answer to that most basic question.

[emma17]

Are athletes that receive scholarships to Catholic high schools also employees?
Some universities give academic scholarships to attract the brightest students. When these students perform well in school it raises the academic standing of the institution, resulting in greater enrollment of top academic achievers to the university- a great financial benefit. Shouldn't these top performing students on scholarship be considered employees as well?

The answer isn't as hard as people want to make it. School is for education.
The rest is all consumerism and quite frankly, greed.

[formerd3db]

Unrelated topic:

Of course, this too, is not related to DIII.  However, does anyone think there just might be a problem with Heisman Trophy winner Jameis Winston?  His latest "run in" with the law, which was reported yesterday and has occurred during his senior baseball season, is that he was arrested for shoplifting.  He left a local store without paying for seafood.  Upon his arrest, he admitted he had taken the seafood (it was found in his apartment in his possession), however, he alleges that "he just forgot to pay for it".   Seriously? 

Without question, if that were someone else i.e. an average citizen, that person would be facing more than the "slap on the wrist" that Winston is apparently going to receive (again as reported by the media) in that he is going to be required to provide a fair amount of community service.  Special treatment again? That appears to be suggested here, although his Florida State Head Baseball Coach suspended him from the team, which was also endorsed by Florida State's Head Football Coach Fisher, yet the latter obviously doesn't have any real jurisdiction with regard to Winston anymore. At least he supported it.

Good grief...a sad pattern of behavior that seems to continue on (the alleged sexual assault episode and the alleged "BB gun" wars in the dorms that he and his teammates/buddies engaged in).  I hope someone persuades Winston to get some help, although I doubt he will do that.  Your additional thoughts, anyone?

[ExTartanPlayer]

...does anyone think there just might be a problem with Heisman Trophy winner Jameis Winston?  His latest "run in" with the law, which was reported yesterday and has occurred during his senior baseball season, is that he was arrested for shoplifting.  He left a local store without paying for seafood.  Upon his arrest, he admitted he had taken the seafood (it was found in his apartment in his possession), however, he alleges that "he just forgot to pay for it".   Seriously? 

Without question, if that were someone else i.e. an average citizen, that person would be facing more than the "slap on the wrist" that Winston is apparently going to receive (again as reported by the media) in that he is going to be required to provide a fair amount of community service.  Special treatment again? That appears to be suggested here, although his Florida State Head Baseball Coach suspended him from the team, which was also endorsed by Florida State's Head Football Coach Fisher, yet the latter obviously doesn't have any real jurisdiction with regard to Winston anymore. At least he supported it.

One quick detail, doc, which actually is relevant to one of your points: Winston is not a senior.  He is a sophomore on the baseball team this year (he was a redshirt freshman on the football team in 2013) and will presumably be returning to the football team this fall, since Winston cannot become a professional in either sport for at least one more season.  Thus, Coach Fisher does still have "jurisdiction" over Winston and, IMO, would be within his bounds to suspend Winston next season if he felt it were necessary.

Anyways, I discussed this with a friend yesterday.  Key points:

1) If this were his first brush with the law, this incident would not have been a big deal.  Again, while it may seem unlikely, it is at least PLAUSIBLE that he "accidentally" walked out of the store without paying for it (at least once, I've accidentally left a small coffee shop without paying, and I've definitely walked out of a CVS with something jammed in my pocket that I just forgot was there).  The possibilities here range from "innocent mistake" to "kid that tried to get away with a free meal because he thinks he's above the rules" but that is where THIS incident ends.  It was "only" $32.72 of food that he "stole" (accidentally or intentionally) and thus, IMO, this would not have been such a big deal if Winston had a squeaky-clean record to date.

Also, formerd3db, I disagree with your belief that Winston is receiving special treatment in this case or that an "average citizen" would be facing more than the slap on the wrist that Winston is going to receive in this case.  I highlighted the words "in this case" for a reason because, whether you like it or not, the crime committed here must be judged on its own merit because legally Winston has no criminal history.  You're probably rolling your eyes, but being suspected of a crime is NOT the same as being convicted of a crime, and therefore Winston is a first-time offender.  Do you really think an average citizen with no criminal record would be treated differently for shoplifting $32.72 of crab legs from the grocery store?  I'm fairly certain that community service (and perhaps a token fine) is standard punishment for shoplifting.  What punishment would you suggest?  Jail time?

With that said...I acknowledge that while he is a first-time offender, this is not his first brush with the law, so let's review his prior transgressions:

2) His past transgressions, Part I: the BB-gun war ultimately falls more into the "boys-being-boys-gone-too-far" for most people.  Now doc, this might surprise you given my stance in some of our prior discussions, but I believe that incidents of this nature - seemingly "harmless" incidents where students/athletes show a frequent and flagrant disregard for rules after being repeatedly warned - should be punished more harshly than they often are.  I'll note that this is not unique to Division I athletes; I'm certainly aware of fraternities and/or sports teams that have taken on a "We're too cool for school" attitude and carried on with pranks/parties/violations after being warned to "cease and desist" by their respective University.

3) His past transgressions, Part II: the Coke incident.  A manager of a Burger King accused Winston of taking soda but, again, no charges were filed.  Troubling, yes, and a possible indication of a kid thinking he's above the rules...but still, the manager declined to press charges of petty theft.  Legally, this has no bearing on the current incident. 

4) His past transgressions, Part III: by far the most serious of the problems, the alleged sexual assault.  This could have its own entire post.  I'll post this link here:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/04/16/sports/errors-in-inquiry-on-rape-allegations-against-fsu-jameis-winston.html

Unfortunately, we will never know the "real truth" of that incident because, in that case, Winston absolutely was granted some degree of special treatment by law enforcement.  The most upsetting passage I read in that article was the following:

"Officer Angulo, who had told his superiors that he "had no real leads," suddenly got a big one on Jan. 10, a little more than a month after the encounter. As a new semester was beginning, the accuser called to say she had identified the suspect — Jameis Winston — after seeing him in class and hearing his name called out. 

Again, Officer Angulo hesitated. Nearly two weeks passed before his backup investigator contacted Mr. Winston — by telephone, records show.

"Winston stated he had baseball practice but would call back later to set a time," Officer Angulo wrote. The police did get a response — from Mr. Winston's lawyer, Timothy Jansen, who said his client would not be speaking to anyone."

I was furious upon reading this; if there's one case where Winston absolutely DID receive special treatment, it's this one.  The police called to interview a suspect about a rape investigation and he postponed on them because he had baseball practice?  How could that possibly be an excuse to get out of a police interview?  I thought that a rape investigation, was, uh, kind of a big deal.

5) With all of that said: it is difficult to say whether the shoplifting incident is merely an innocent mistake or another sign of an entitled athlete/celebrity who thinks he is above the rules.  Maybe it really was an absent-minded "Whoops, did I forget to pay?" moment on Jameis Winston's part, or maybe it was a more sinister decision to try to sneak out without paying, falling back on the "Whoops, did I forget to pay?" defense when he was caught and hoping that his stature would help him avoid serious trouble.  We should not turn this incident into something it isn't; but I, too, read this headline and thought "A kid who's already been under some public scrutiny has got to be smarter than that, innocent mistake or not."

You never can tell exactly what's going to happen with 20-year-old athletes surrounded by hype and controversy.  LeBron James dealt with his share of controversy in high school and now ranks as one of the most articulate, savvy, influential athletes in America.  Michael Vick signed a 10-year, $130 million contract and a year later went to jail (although it is worth noting that he has expressed remorse for his actions and become an upstanding citizen since his release from prison).  Cam Newton had his share of controversy from Florida-through-Auburn, and now may be maturing into a worthy franchise QB and leader, although the jury is still out.  I think Winston most resembles Cam Newton in his personality and the type of controversy surrounding him, but who knows.  There's enough smoke surrounding Jameis Winston right now that, if I were an NFL executive, I wouldn't touch him.

[wally_wabash]

First, sports stuff.  Deep down in places that he won't talk about at parties or FSU athletic department meetings, Jimbo is THRILLED that Winston isn't playing any more baseball.  As long as he's out there closing Seminole baseball games, he's one funky pitch away from having the UCL on his golden right arm blow apart.  And if that happens, he's not throwing anything, oblong or spherical, for 12 months.  So of course Jimbo supports Coach Martin's decision.  Jimbo benefits immeasurably. 

As for more important things like the cultivation of a decent person, I think FSU has to be on eggshells right now wondering when this kid's complete lack of self awareness and repeated disregard for exercising good judgement is going to turn into something way, way worse for everybody involved than some boosted crab legs.  Or more pointedly- when is something way, way worse going to happen again (allegedly)?  Didn't Jerry Jones hire some babysitters for Dez Bryant a few years ago?  Is FSU at that point with this kid?  At what point does the university have some kind of liability for his behavior?  I'd think they have to do something to put the pin back in the grenade here before something awful happens (again). 

I would be shocked if FSU suspends him for any games this fall.  Maybe if they opened the schedule at home against the Citadel they'd make him sit out there (and insult all of us at the same time by calling that a punishment), but they open up in Dallas against Oklahoma State and they won't sit him out for that game. 

[ExTartanPlayer]

As for more important things like the cultivation of a decent person, I think FSU has to be on eggshells right now wondering when this kid's complete lack of self awareness and repeated disregard for exercising good judgement is going to turn into something way, way worse for everybody involved than some boosted crab legs.  Or more pointedly- when is something way, way worse going to happen again (allegedly)?

I think this is a key point, and I'm not sure if that came through in my longer post above.  I don't think Winston is getting special treatment for this particular case, but I do believe formerd3db was correct that, as wally puts it, Famous Jameis seems to have a lack of self-awareness, rather poor judgement, and (probably) a very inflated opinion of his place in the world.  That's why I compared him to Cam Newton (remember when, before the draft, Newton was asked about his goals and instead of answering with "be the best QB in the league" or "win the Super Bowl" he answered with "Global Icon" - that's what I think Ol' Jameis is like).

Wally makes a good point: what if thus turns into something way, way worse?  What if Jameis' name turns up in a bar fight later this summer, or worse, another sexual-assault case?

Also, wally, I enjoyed the photo

[formerd3db]

A very good discussion. First, I totally didn't realize Winston had additional years.  For some reason, I thought he was done with football.  Believe it or not, I never really followed the Heisman race this year, in part because I didn't really care for some of the candidates, including Winston.  Anyway, indeed, you guys are right that Fisher has an interest in him, although I'm still glad that he supported the baseball coaches suspension.

I think that if he pays a fine and is required community service, that would be in line with what many people get for that misdemeanor.  However, you are incorrect if you think that some people do not get some jail time, albeit minimal in many cases, as that does happen and I know of persons it happened to.  Also, some counseling has often been tacked on to the sentencing and that certainly is an appropriate aspect that applies to Winston-anyone who says it is not, is not being realistic at the very least.  Nonetheless, you are correct that Winston is technically a first time offender, however, with all the other "baggage" that he has, I agree with you and Wally that could possibly have some weight with those in power who will be determining the actual consequences (although, if it is anything like the alleged assault was handled apparently, that could be a rather sketchy situation ).

Concerning two final points, a) I agree with you that the "boys will be boys" scenario is most likely what happened. I'm sure we all have been guilty of that in our college days of the so-called "Animal House" Syndrome  (I admit I was and did some stupid things, which I and others thought were quite funny at the time, when in reality, they probably weren't).  Yet, you might be surprised though, that I agree with you that the BB gun incident is one of those in a more serious category (obviously more so than the soda pop incident at the local fast food restaurant) and probably should have had more extensive consequences than it did.

and

b) I totally agree with you and Wally that this young man is seriously lacking in maturity (and needs some serious guidance, more than he apparently is getting from the FSU coaching staffs- hopefully they and/or someone at the university will help Winston in that regard-it should be mandated after all that has transpired with him in the past several months).  And you also summed it up well in that, I, too, wouldn't touch this kid if I were an NFL executive either.  (However, I wouldn't be surprised if someone does just that eventually).

Seems that FSU has had it's share of controversies over the years even when Bowden was in charge.      

[ADL70]

To further clarify, he was not arrested, he was issued a "civil citation."  Little more than a traffic ticket.

Nowhere have I seen it reported that he has now paid for the food or more importantly, it seems to me, did he have the funds to pay for the food?  How else to you test the old Steve Martin defense "I forgot."

It's incredible to me that his statement, reportedly released by his attorney, can only come up with "youthful ignorance" as an excuse.  Ya gotta ask, "Ignorance of what?"

The incident does harm to the "poor, exploited athletes" narrative that has been put forth.

In some circles FSU has been referred to as Felony State University.

What I saw reported was that he was suspended until he did his twenty hours of community service, which I would expect will be done long before football starts.

[D306]

Well FSU events are typical for a Private Sports program pretending to be a University of higher Education.
I hope that they eventually pull his Awards and the National Title (USC, Heisman).
Then again I am still waiting for the Auburn "oh he did not know his dad received monies"  (Stealing laptops, and getting tossed from Florida, cash to Cam's Dad) to get their National Title pulled.
No accountability no class in the NCAA or these universities, what are we teaching our youth?, lie, steal, cheat, abuse women, whine that you are abused with the veiled " its slavery" BS excuse for these poor "student" Athletes ( I say this loosely as there is little education happening here with many of these Athletes )
I am not naïve enough to believe it was much different in the past, yet with 24 news, and sports channels reporting the most inane facts or made for TV facts. These issues have been placed in everyone's face, the NCAA and Universities are struggling with how to maintain some semblance of professional appearance, and not kill the cash cow they have.

I have no real solutions yet I know I would not hire any of these young men into my company, personal accountability and character are important in business and in your life. This "I got mine" lifestyle is the problem.
All this said on my soapbox, the win now win big structure at major universities and Pro sports has created the culture of looking the other way. This all happened in the past as well yet we were not aware of it on a mass media manner.
I like many of you watch the news with a jaded view ( IRS Scandal, Benghazi Lies/cover up ) and I think that is the saddest thing, every achievement (Homerun records in MLB ) are now always looked at in a different light. Those who do things the right way are now either left behind by cheaters or have in the back of peoples minds their accomplishments questioned.

[formerd3db]

Good post, D306.

Also,...Winston reinstated in less than two weeks and 20 hours of community service (less than one day for the latter).  Not special treatment? And no other consequences regarding his college playing right now?  Good grief.  Hey, I don't have a record, yet can I be afforded the same if I forget to pay for my seafood the next time I go to the grocery store?   Enough of this story, but I couldn't resist one more statement.  What a joke, but it isn't really.

[wally_wabash]

Last week, FSU played a non-league weekend series against Minnesota.  Weird at this time of the year, but that's what happened.  This week FSU has a big ACC series against North Carolina (while not as awesome this year, the Heels have been CWS fixtures for a handful of years now).  You guys really didn't think Florida State was going to throw Winston in the dungeon over some crab legs, did you? 

That said, the university is now on really thin ice.  There's going to be a lot of attention on Winston and his behavior (he'll be THE talk over the summer as we lead into CFB season) and if he steps out of line again, there will be an equal amount of attention on FSU and how they've more or less given this guy a free pass.  Seriously, they're one more Winston transgression away from triggering a rather unpleasant Outside The Lines piece (a piece that might have already been made if ESPN wasn't also fully invested in marketing that kid all summer and all fall).  At this point, I think FSU has made their bed and they're just hoping that they can get through this summer and fall without incident, have Winston declare for the draft, and be done with him.  But not before he maybe delivers another crystal football (or whatever it is this year...I think they're changing it up). 

[formerd3db]

Nice synopsis, Wally.  I think that you are probably right.  As you alluded to, we'll obviously just have to wait and see what plays out i.e. the next "Act in the Play".

[formerd3db]

Pat:

Regarding an older discussion topic, when was the agreement for renewal of the Stagg Bowl with the City of Salem coming up again?  I recall you mentioned it was to be in the next year or so.  As you know, there was some talk by some people for interest in moving it to another city, such as those new facilities down in Florida, however, I and many others agree with you that there is really no reason to change venues at this time from Salem as they have done a great job over the years. 

I couldn't find a link to check on/review that.  When they (the NCAA) renews the agreement with Salem, how many years does that typically go for, or does it vary?

P.S.  Do you have any warm weather in your neck of the woods yet or do you still have some ice chunks floating around?