FB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Cousin Eddie]

Sorry to say formerd3db....but it does sound a bit more like "sour grapes" than anything else.  If you were right down on the sidelines and yet have no direct incidents to name off for the Hope players and coaches it seems a bit suspect.  In such a high emotion rivalry game it seems odd that you only heard foul language from Albion players and coaches, but nothing from the Hope side.  Because I am sure it was happening on both sides.  If vandyboy was possibly "shielded by the band or even at the concession stand" then it seems possible that you were shielded by your Hope sense of superiority.  But then again if I recall correctly, this topic comes up each season and just about every team...other than maybe KZoo...has been called classless at one time or another.  And it typically comes from a fan of the team that lost. 

[vandyboy]

Yes as a fan I was in the stands and not on the sidelines.  And as anyone who has been to Albion knows the home side is elevated and behind the track.  I was in the East end next to the band, and not at the concession stand (please).  I heard nothing what so ever from the field.  And as far as your so called taunting by Albion's players, I saw nothing of the sort from either team.  It was an emotional game no different than the last five years that I have seen.

If I recall Albion immediately lined up at the 50 to shake hands with the Hope players after the initial celebration.  I know from my son's playing at Albion for four years that Hope along with Adrian are Albion's main rivals, and this year was no different.  The game I watched was cleanly played by two fairly closely matched squads.

Best of luck to Hope the rest of the season.

[formerd3db]

Yes as a fan I was in the stands and not on the sidelines.  And as anyone who has been to Albion knows the home side is elevated and behind the track.  I was in the East end next to the band, and not at the concession stand (please).  I heard nothing what so ever from the field.  And as far as your so called taunting by Albion's players, I saw nothing of the sort from either team.  It was an emotional game no different than the last five years that I have seen.

If I recall Albion immediately lined up at the 50 to shake hands with the Hope players after the initial celebration.  I know from my son's playing at Albion for four years that Hope along with Adrian are Albion's main rivals, and this year was no different.  The game I watched was cleanly played by two fairly closely matched squads.

Best of luck to Hope the rest of the season.

Sorry to say formerd3db....but it does sound a bit more like "sour grapes" than anything else.  If you were right down on the sidelines and yet have no direct incidents to name off for the Hope players and coaches it seems a bit suspect.  In such a high emotion rivalry game it seems odd that you only heard foul language from Albion players and coaches, but nothing from the Hope side.  Because I am sure it was happening on both sides.  If vandyboy was possibly "shielded by the band or even at the concession stand" then it seems possible that you were shielded by your Hope sense of superiority.  But then again if I recall correctly, this topic comes up each season and just about every team...other than maybe KZoo...has been called classless at one time or another.  And it typically comes from a fan of the team that lost. 

So, are both of you then saying that I am untruthful-or let's be candid here-calling me a liar??  You both can believe what you want, but I know what I saw and heard and there are others who will back me up on this.  Nor did I say that our players never used some poor choice of words-in fact, I made that specific statement to the contrary.  Rather, I was pointing out (referring to 3 specific incidents that I and some other persons witnessed/heard without question). And I'm not going to name specific names or go into more detail (I certainly can, but will not)-that is pointless as has been borne out in the past as I shared about past experiences (and there is much, much more to the latter than you know). 

BTW, you obviously missed my attempt at humor regarding the concession stand/band comment!   I also know full well about the rivalry between the teams having been associated with the MIAA for many years in several ways, so you don't have to remind me of that! Of course, tensions and emotions get intense in heated rivalries.  That's not the point.  Regardless, it is also pointless to debate this further so I will move on. 

Anyway, best of luck to Albion as well the rest of the season.  Again, as I've mentioned, at this current time, I believe it will be an even closer race this year than many of us thought, especially after Olivet's win this past Sat, although it is certainly still early!  Despite their bad/slow start, Alma could be a spoiler, wouldn't you agree?

[vandyboy]

To be quite clear I do not think I ever mentioned nor implied that you were lying.  All I was saying and I 100% stand by is that I heard nothing sitting in the home stands from the field, and I still stand by that I saw nothing that could be taken as taunting.  I am not going to get into a he said/he said banter.  I do not know your capacity in association with Hope for you to be on the field.  It does not matter.  Again, all I was saying is that from the Albion side of the field, nothing was heard nor seen that could be taken as unsportsmanlike.  If you want to take that statement as being called a liar, so be it.  I am sure a lot of things were said on the field given the rivalry, but from a fan standpoint, it was not visible.  Been put to bed.

I also think the league will be a close one as well.  Olivet could and probably will be a fly in the ointment.  Their coach has them headed in the right direction.  Looking at their coaching staff (Olivet) it appears a good share of Trine's staff went with him.  Which might explain Trine's slight slide of late.  I am not sold on Alma as of yet.  Time will tell.  We have Kzoo this week and then a night game at Adrian the following week.  Fun times in the MIAA.

Whoever comes out of the MIAA this year I do not think they will fare to well in the tournament.  I can't speak for the other schools in the MIAA but I have heard that our enrollment is down quite a bit this year.  On a side note, I have never understood how they determine the D3/D2 distinction.  I understand the scholarship issue, but I remember when we played UW Whitewater my son's junior year and we traveled to WI is was like men playing boys.  Their enrollment was it that time I think just over 10k where Albion and most MIAA schools are around 1500-2000.  Quite a difference.

On to better and more peaceful matters........

[ExTartanPlayer]

On a side note, I have never understood how they determine the D3/D2 distinction.  I understand the scholarship issue, but I remember when we played UW Whitewater my son's junior year and we traveled to WI is was like men playing boys.  Their enrollment was it that time I think just over 10k where Albion and most MIAA schools are around 1500-2000.  Quite a difference.

It is true that the WIAC schools are a bit different in profile than most Division III schools.  They are (relatively) large state-funded universities, while Division III is comprised of (mostly) private institutions with somewhat smaller enrollment.  The relative advantages of this have been discussed several times in Mount Union versus UWW discussions.

That said, as you allude to by mentioning "the scholarship issue" - schools are not classified by the NCAA based on enrollment.  Nor does it really make sense to do so.  This isn't high school; schools can bring in as many football players as their admissions department will allow, from anywhere in the country.  Some rather small colleges boast very large football rosters.  As long as the "big" enrollment schools are playing by Division III rules - no scholarships, abiding by the practice time limitations and coaching restrictions, etc - it's hard to figure out why overall undergraduate enrollment would matter that much to football success.  Furthermore, the leagues most comparable to the WIAC in terms of overall strength and depth - the Empire 8 and MIAC - are (mostly) composed of small(ish) private schools.

Furthermore, within Division I...Duke, Stanford, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, and Northwestern all play football in bigtime conferences (ND, of course, is independent, but plays a schedule of largely bigtime teams) despite enrollments far smaller than a number of programs that play in smaller conferences.  Central Florida, Central Michigan, Western Michigan, East Carolina, and Northern Illinois all boast much larger enrollments than any of the aforementioned five.  In fact, UCF is the biggest school in the country.  Hard to say that their enrollment has made them an untouchable juggernaut.

[vandyboy]

Ex-Tartan,

Thank you for your input and clarifications.

[Cousin Eddie]

Vandyboy....sorry my post got you pulled in to having to defend your comments.

Look formerd3db, nobody was calling you a liar.  I don't doubt that you heard foul language (from both sides).  But I don't think: "I am not saying any of our players don't do that," is really a specific comment to the contrary.  Your comment refers to over the years it may have happened.  It leaves out that Hope more than likely had some foul language on Saturday, just as Albion did.  So again not really a specific comment to the contrary.  In my initial response I was just pointing out that the comments, while true that foul language was heard, did sound more like "sour grapes" due to the loss and your sole focus on Albion.  Because it is likely the case that had Hope been victorious, you would not have brought it up.  And don't worry, I got your attempt at humor....I just chose to ignore it. 


But you are right....it is pointless to debate this much further. 

[formerd3db]

vandyboy and Cousin Eddy:

Let's be clear here. Nobody pulled anybody into this discussion.  We all joined freely.   

A couple more comments on this in response to both of your latest posts and then I will put this to rest for sure.  Well, if nobody was calling me a liar, your statements sure imply the opposite.  Let's recap...your specific statements said the following... from Cousin Eddy..."if you were right down on the sidelines yet have no direct incidents to name off for the Hope players and coaches it seems a bit suspect" and the other was from vandyboy..."as far as your so called taunting by Albion players, I saw nothing of the sort from either team".  I think anyone who reads that knows what was implied even if you were also commenting on only what you did or did not see or hear yourselves.  You can back track all you want, yet that is what clearly was implied.  I also accepted the fact that you did not see or hear anything yourselves, yet for you to imply those things never happened as I said from my standpoint (and yes on the other side of the field where I was) is absurd. 

Secondly, Cousin Eddy, you for a second time state/imply that these types of comments come from people on the losing side and that I would not have brought the subject up had Hope won.  I clearly said it was not sour grapes, but was bringing it up because I have always done that in the past regardless of who (i.e. what players or coaches for any team) was responsible for such type actions in question in past years (whether it was Hope, Albion or some other teams).  I have called out Hope players on this in the past for such behavior so for you to imply I was doing in response to being on the losing end is simply not correct.  I also clearly stated that Albion deserved to win the game in my original post.  You both want to not get into a he said/she said debate, yet you imply you want me to "name names". I clearly said I will not do that, yet again for you to imply (regardless of how you said it) that what I witnessed never occurred because neither of you didn't see it is ridiculous.  I take both of you at your words that you did not hear or witness incidents, yet, again, you suggest/implied you were unwilling to do the same for me.   Enough.

vandyboy:

Indeed, I join you in thanking ExTartan for his explanations and comments to the discussion topic you brought up.  He always has some good contributory information and insight, IMO.  For sure, there have been some very good discussions here on the various boards in the past on the classifications regarding DII/DIII, including philosophy, both potential and what is actually in place.  ExTartan, indeed, provided a nice explanation on most of that.  Many in the past questioned (or at least brought up the idea) the same inquiry you did with regard to the enrollment concern of the larger DIII schools such as the Wisconsin extension universities.  Probably too far (or too time consuming) for you or us to back track on the boards to revisit those very interesting discussions.

Yet, suffice to say as ExTartan has nicely explained for us also, that, in essence, it is the choice of a specific school as to what level they desire to participate in, with the understanding, of course, that the NCAA has the final approval on this.  An example regarding the latter as I recall (if I am not mistaken), Davenport here in Michigan applied for preliminary consideration of DII, however, was turned down, at least for now, by the NCAA.  Other examples that we could perhaps add to ExTartan's are Rice and the FCS, non-scholarship schools, although the latter are somewhat of a "different animal" to use that old (and probably too often used) term.   Hillsdale is another example; used to be at the smaller college level and former MIAA member (pre DIII) yet with similar enrollment to the MIAA schools, they have chosen to the DII level in the GLIAC, as are some of that leagues "newer" members that have smaller enrollments.  Mercyhurst in Erie is another example that used to be DIII and decided to change to DII as did Upper Iowa which used to be DIII in the Iowa league but is now DII by choice.  St. Joseph, Ind another example.

Now...the other side of the coin is, just because a school chooses (and is accepted to be in) a specific level, should they really be there? (Some would include the MAC DI schools in this and, certainly, many of the DII schools).  But that is another argument-uh, oops, I mean...debate/discussion ) for another time!



         

[formerd3db]

vandyboy:

I think you are right about the enrollment being down somewhat this year for most of the MIAA schools, with the exception of Hope and Olivet.  We can could look at those figures to check for sure, although it appears that Olivet is up over the 1000 mark again after several years and Hope has its largest enrollment ever, topping the 3300 mark this year.  For sure, it is becoming more financially difficult for some student-athletes to attend the some of the DIII schools.

Your sharing of your memory of when your son played against UWW brings back some memories.  Back in my own MIAA days, we (and some of the other MIAA schools played some DII schools on occasion.  I recall specifically a couple of years playing DII Indiana Central (which is, of course, now University of Indianapolis) and it was like you said.  Playing against their line seemed like we were playing U of Michigan as they were that huge!  We actually beat them one year, though.  Alma used to play Ferris occasionally as well and held their own.  A final story I'll throw in was back at the 2001 Stagg Bowl. My gosh, Mount Union's starting offensive and defensive lines averaged 305 that year as I recall, which was only two pounds less per man average than Ohio State's lines that year!  Amazing!

Anyway, good luck this weekend, although I don't think your team will need it against Kazoo this year.  Hope has its last non-conf game against Rockford and hopefully will bounce back and be ready for Olivet for Hope's Homecoming the following weekend, which could be an even bigger game of importance if both Olivet and Hope win their games this Saturday.  For everyone, though, I hope the weather holds out to be nice (i.e. no rain), although none of us obviously has a choice in that.  

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Well since I can't help myself, I will put in a last word on this as well.  I do chuckle seeing those negative karma points going up.

The problem then as it seems Former, is the implied meaning you are finding with my statements so let me help clear things up on that:

"Sorry to say formerd3db....but it does sound a bit more like 'sour grapes' than anything else" and
"... while true that foul language was heard, did sound more like 'sour grapes'..."
Both statements say "did sound like" so meaning similar to or that's how it could read.  I didn't state that It Was "sour grapes".  So I am not back tracking...wasn't calling you a liar.  I know that you said it wasn't sour grapes and that's fine, I am not taking that away from you....but it could seem that way.  I didn't say that it was. 

Next.  "In such a high emotion rivalry game it seems odd that you only heard foul language from Albion players and coaches, but nothing from the Hope side.  Because I am sure it was happening on both sides" and
"In my initial response I was just pointing out that the comments, while true that foul language was heard..."  and
"I don't doubt that you heard foul language (from both sides)."
Looking at these I am not sure where you thought I was denying that Albion used foul language.  My meaning here was that you heard Albion but yet don't ever claim to have heard any foul language used by Hope at any point on Saturday.  Any implied meaning here would be that both teams engaged in foul language.  I am not looking for you to name names in any way.  Just a simple statement of "I was also disappointed by some of the things I heard from Hope players" is what I am saying is lacking. Because again....while I don't doubt foul language was used by Albion....I do doubt you heard nothing from Hope.  And if you claim that in the past you have called out Hope on times you have heard foul language, it surprises me that this past game was a time when nothing of note took place in that regard. 


So hopefully that cleared up any of the implied meanings and was a bit more explicit.  On to the up coming games.

[formerd3db]

Well since I can't help myself, I will put in a last word on this as well.  I do chuckle seeing those negative karma points going up.

The problem then as it seems Former, is the implied meaning you are finding with my statements so let me help clear things up on that:

"Sorry to say formerd3db....but it does sound a bit more like 'sour grapes' than anything else" and
"... while true that foul language was heard, did sound more like 'sour grapes'..."
Both statements say "did sound like" so meaning similar to or that's how it could read.  I didn't state that It Was "sour grapes".  So I am not back tracking...wasn't calling you a liar.  I know that you said it wasn't sour grapes and that's fine, I am not taking that away from you....but it could seem that way.  I didn't say that it was. 

Next.  "In such a high emotion rivalry game it seems odd that you only heard foul language from Albion players and coaches, but nothing from the Hope side.  Because I am sure it was happening on both sides" and
"In my initial response I was just pointing out that the comments, while true that foul language was heard..."  and
"I don't doubt that you heard foul language (from both sides)."
Looking at these I am not sure where you thought I was denying that Albion used foul language.  My meaning here was that you heard Albion but yet don't ever claim to have heard any foul language used by Hope at any point on Saturday.  Any implied meaning here would be that both teams engaged in foul language.  I am not looking for you to name names in any way.  Just a simple statement of "I was also disappointed by some of the things I heard from Hope players" is what I am saying is lacking. Because again....while I don't doubt foul language was used by Albion....I do doubt you heard nothing from Hope.  And if you claim that in the past you have called out Hope on times you have heard foul language, it surprises me that this past game was a time when nothing of note took place in that regard. 


So hopefully that cleared up any of the implied meanings and was a bit more explicit.  On to the up coming games.

Negative karma is irrelevant and I don't care about it.  I'm glad you can get a chuckle out of it as do I.   

I never said that Hope players probably didn't use some foul language for this game.  If you would read posts more carefully, I simply referred to 2-3 specific aspects I saw and heard personally directed from Albion.  I did not call out any Hope players for THIS game because I did not personally hear or see any of that publically displayed in front of us during the action, like I/we did from the opponents on those couple of instances.  Of course, most likely there was some from some Hope players and without question, I am disappointed when that occurs regardless of which team's player's do that when it occurs, as I assume you are as well.  But I'm not bringing up any "supposed instances" I did not personally witness.  If you knew of any such instances, then you should speak up about it (no names needed of course), however, if is obvious you cannot attest to specific incidents since you have not-rather only suggesting that "there probably were". 

You can back track all and explain all you want, however, you initial posts stand by themselves and the meaning was clear.       

[Cousin Eddie]

Yes my comments are that it likely happened on both sides.  Because from the vantage point I had on Saturday I wasn't able to hear much from the field from Albion or from Hope.  Most times when I am watching games I rarely hear the person next to me asking a question because my focus is on the game.  Which is why I have said I don't doubt you heard things from Albion.  But I will follow that by saying I have had the opportunity to be on the field/sidelines a few times at Albion for games.  And I know that one can hear just about everything on the sideline on which they are standing and that at times yes you can hear across the field.  Which is why I said I doubt that you did not hear anything from Hope sidelines because my experience is that it sure is hard not to hear everything from the particular sideline where one is standing.  That is the one aspect in which I can't bring myself to believe you.  Similar to how your joke/comment about the band and concession stand seemed to be implying that vandyboy was choosing not to hear or overlooking what was done by Albion....I am implying that you may have overlooked or chose not to hear what was coming from Hope.  And yes that implication was there in my initial post. 

Now a particular instance that I did get to see from my vantage point was an Albion player that did approach Hope's side at the end of the game but he was followed by an assistant coach that was pulling him back from continuing with whatever he was doing.  So I know I had previously left this part alone in terms of your comment about coaches historically looking the other way, that was not the case in this particular instance on Saturday.  I am not looking to open a new discussion on this coaches topic....you were also asking for instances and this is the one that I have for Saturday.  Again I have not doubted you saw or heard things from Albion which is why I am fine with pointing out this particular player.  I don't know what he was doing or saying, and so while unnecessary I can't point to if it was classless/unsporstmanlike or not.

[Gregory Sager]

Hillsdale is another example; used to be at the smaller college level and former MIAA member (pre DIII) yet with similar enrollment to the MIAA schools, they have chosen to the DII level in the GLIAC, as are some of that leagues "newer" members that have smaller enrollments.  Mercyhurst in Erie is another example that used to be DIII and decided to change to DII as did Upper Iowa which used to be DIII in the Iowa league but is now DII by choice.  St. Joseph, Ind another example.

Mercyhurst has never been a D3 school. It went straight from the NAIA to D2. St. Joseph's (IN) wasn't D3, either.

Other examples of small-enrollment private schools that went from D3 to D2 include Lake Erie College (Painesville, OH); LeMoyne-Owen College (Memphis, TN); Longwood University (Farmville, VA); Chowan University (Murfreesboro, NC); Ashland University (Ashland, OH); Mississippi College (Clinton, MS); and Maryville University (Town and Country, MO). While most of the D3 state schools that have moved on to D2 over the years have been WIAC-sized institutions, at least one -- Lincoln University in Pennsylvania, a HBCU -- still has an enrollment under 2,500.

[Cousin Eddie]

Rereading I seem to be contradicting myself so to clear up just in case.  Most times if I am not on the sidelines for games I rarely hear or the person next to me if they ask a question.   But when down on the sidelines it is different for me and I find that I more easily pick up on field talk and noise.  My focus is just as much on the game but field level I am not working so much on ignoring general crowd comments and so field noise comes through.  Didn't want it to read or seem that I was saying I rarely hear field noise and then go on to say that it can easily be heard.

[formerd3db]

Hillsdale is another example; used to be at the smaller college level and former MIAA member (pre DIII) yet with similar enrollment to the MIAA schools, they have chosen to the DII level in the GLIAC, as are some of that leagues "newer" members that have smaller enrollments.  Mercyhurst in Erie is another example that used to be DIII and decided to change to DII as did Upper Iowa which used to be DIII in the Iowa league but is now DII by choice.  St. Joseph, Ind another example.

Mercyhurst has never been a D3 school. It went straight from the NAIA to D2. St. Joseph's (IN) wasn't D3, either.

Other examples of small-enrollment private schools that went from D3 to D2 include Lake Erie College (Painesville, OH); LeMoyne-Owen College (Memphis, TN); Longwood University (Farmville, VA); Chowan University (Murfreesboro, NC); Ashland University (Ashland, OH); Mississippi College (Clinton, MS); and Maryville University (Town and Country, MO). While most of the D3 state schools that have moved on to D2 over the years have been WIAC-sized institutions, at least one -- Lincoln University in Pennsylvania, a HBCU -- still has an enrollment under 2,500.

My post was not clear regarding St. Joseph and I should have clarified that part.  I did not mean to include it in schools that went from DII to DIII, although the way I wrote it right after the preceding sentence it admittedly can be taken that way.  What I meant regarding that particular school was that it one of the smaller enrollment schools that has chosen DII. 

Regarding Mercyhurst (and Gannon in the same city of Erie), I could be wrong Gregory, however, I seem to recall that they were indeed DIII along with Gannon for a couple of years back in the late 1980's or early 1990's.  I will need to pull out from my collection of the annual NCAA Guidebook from those years to check for sure (if I still have those copies-I had kept them in a bin for a long time, although I think I may have thrown them out a couple of years ago).  I will try to check on that, although you may be right they were not DIII-I thought they were for a short time.

You cite some other good examples of schools for the discussion.  Thanks.