FB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[HOPEful]

There goes my karma. The football board was my "safe space" lol

[HOPEful]

In all seriousness though, my mind immediately goes to financial questions regarding the move.

1. How long is reasonable to expect that the football program is in the black? A lot of effort and money is going to be put into making this happen, what's the expected payoff?

2. What kind of pushback will Calvin get in the wake of all the academic and student life programs that have seen significant cuts or elimination in the last several years due to financial struggles? Calvin has been aggressively cutting programs, reducing staff, and selling real estate for a while now. Although a declining student population has played a big role too, one could argue that their financial woes began in the late 90s via construction projects and real estate purchases. Building a football stadium in many ways feels like not learning from previous mistakes, especially to students and faculty who have seen their programs gutted in recent years. A football season at Calvin in 2025 feels like a very aggressive goal, meaning that for the next 3 years minimum, a lot of time and money will be poured into something that is sure to upset the more academically focused that don't necessarily care about athletics.

[Pat Coleman]

Announcing football in October 2022 and taking the field for varsity games in 2025 is not an aggressive timeline at all. The normal timeline for an announcement in the fall is to take the field two years later.

Hilbert in New York announced in November 2021 and played seven varsity games this fall. That's crazy aggressive and also probably driven by enrollment.

Schools are all looking at this enrollment cliff coming starting in 2025 and making adjustments. If Calvin needs 100 students, football is a way to get them.

[HOPEful]

Announcing football in October 2022 and taking the field for varsity games in 2025 is not an aggressive timeline at all. The normal timeline for an announcement in the fall is to take the field two years later.

Fair point. I guess by aggressive, I meant in ways of infrastructure. A stadium, coaching staff, equipment, etc. It feels "aggressive" that they'd have those in place by this summer.

Is it fair to assume that in 2025 they'd have a team comprised by majority underclassmen and walk-ons? 

[Pat Coleman]

That's where most programs start, yes. You could have two classes at that point, one of whom has a year of just practice/JV games/intrasquad under its belt, and one of whom is true freshmen. Often there may be a couple of key transfers, and some walk-ons from the student body at large who were already at Calvin.

[ziggy]

Announcing football in October 2022 and taking the field for varsity games in 2025 is not an aggressive timeline at all. The normal timeline for an announcement in the fall is to take the field two years later.

Fair point. I guess by aggressive, I meant in ways of infrastructure. A stadium, coaching staff, equipment, etc. It feels "aggressive" that they'd have those in place by this summer.

Is it fair to assume that in 2025 they'd have a team comprised by majority underclassmen and walk-ons?

I wouldn't think hiring a coach and staff, procuring equipment and putting the beginning of a roster together (recruiting and transfer portal) would be prohibitive in a year. Not so for a stadium but I would think Calvin would have a few options that would at least get the program going before having something permanent in place.

[HOPEful]

I wouldn't think hiring a coach and staff, procuring equipment and putting the beginning of a roster together (recruiting and transfer portal) would be prohibitive in a year. Not so for a stadium but I would think Calvin would have a few options that would at least get the program going before having something permanent in place.

I agree, except I feel like many of that requires some firmer dates and guarantees, especially for the student athletes. I'd think recruiting would be quite difficult for a startup program. It would significantly more difficult without promises on when the first game/season would be...

[Pat Coleman]

I'm sure they will be more forthcoming with student-athletes than they were in a high-level news release. The people I talked to seem pretty clear about 2025 being the start of varsity games.

As for recruiting student-athletes? A couple dozens schools have done so successfully in the past 25 years. It's work but it's doable:
https://www.d3football.com/interactive/faq/general#16

[formerd3db]

Calvin is not going to have a problem with recruiting. I also agree with Pat that a 2025 tentative start is anything but an aggressive start. There are many alums (and other people) who would prefer an earlier start to an official season, and it could be easily done. As far as a stadium, there are plenty of nearby high school stadiums that could easily be utilized, if they changed their minds about the initial start-up scenario. Regardless, you can be sure that there will be a huge (over capacity) crowd at that first Hope/Calvin football game whatever the date eventually is.

[KnightSlappy]

Any chance the MIAA presidents/ ADs would allow Holland v. Calvin to end the season yearly?

Wow. Literally came to this board this morning to pose this exact question as it just came to mind. I come humbly to ask because I don't know anything about how the conference has handled scheduling or if it would have any intention of setting up Calvin-Hope football at the end of the season like Michigan-Ohio State. One of the interesting things about rivalries in college football is some have consistent traditional dates and some don't.

(I should also add that I don't take for granted that Calvin will create a football program out of nothing then quickly build a program that makes a final week rivalry game especially important beyond the rivalry itself.)

The MIAA hasn't seemed inclined to give any sort of scheduling preference or acknowledgement for the basketball rivalry*, which is as much of A Thing^TM as there is in all of D3 athletics, so I doubt they'd allow anything 'special' for football.

*We'll be on our second-consecutive season of both Rivalry games occurring on Wednesday nights.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

In all seriousness though, my mind immediately goes to financial questions regarding the move.

1. How long is reasonable to expect that the football program is in the black? A lot of effort and money is going to be put into making this happen, what's the expected payoff?

This lead to wonder, are there actually D3 schools that are in the black regarding a given sport?  I guess it depends on how you define it (enrollment boosts, etc.).

[HOPEful]

This lead to wonder, are there actually D3 schools that are in the black regarding a given sport?  I guess it depends on how you define it (enrollment boosts, etc.).

Such a hard metric to nail down. If you count the cost of facilities, absolutely not. If you count just coaches, equipment, and travel... yes. But as you said with enrollment boosts, there are both more real costs and secondary benefits than those.

I'm sure Calvin will happily take on any and all additional costs if a football team gets more students to enroll.

[ziggy]

Any chance the MIAA presidents/ ADs would allow Holland v. Calvin to end the season yearly?

Wow. Literally came to this board this morning to pose this exact question as it just came to mind. I come humbly to ask because I don't know anything about how the conference has handled scheduling or if it would have any intention of setting up Calvin-Hope football at the end of the season like Michigan-Ohio State. One of the interesting things about rivalries in college football is some have consistent traditional dates and some don't.

(I should also add that I don't take for granted that Calvin will create a football program out of nothing then quickly build a program that makes a final week rivalry game especially important beyond the rivalry itself.)

The MIAA hasn't seemed inclined to give any sort of scheduling preference or acknowledgement for the basketball rivalry*, which is as much of A Thing^TM as there is in all of D3 athletics, so I doubt they'd allow anything 'special' for football.

*We'll be on our second-consecutive season of both Rivalry games occurring on Wednesday nights.

Maybe there are some college rivalries tied to specific times of year but it seems to be more a college football thing and that is the perspective I was coming from. College football seems to stand alone in having some traditional slots for rivalries, like Michigan and Ohio State the last game of the season, Oklahoma and Texas playing the second weekend of October coinciding with the Texas State Fair, etc.

[sac]

Circling back to the two MIAA in the NCAA field thing, there is a path for 2 though I think its still pretty unlikely, there are only 4 Pool C bids available? Or is it 5?.   Albion is ranked #2, Alma #3 in the most recent rankings.   Albion's at large chances are probably better than Alma with a much better SOS, Alma will get a little help from playing unbeaten Albion, but a loss I think puts them in trouble for a bid.

In either case I think the loser probably stays ranked ahead of any of the other Region 7 likely Pool C's


Two in the playoffs is at least a possibility of some measure I can't put a % on, none of us thought one might be Alma.

[sac]

Logan Hanson on the twitterz who does a masterful job breaking down D3 football has Albion at 75% chance in with loss, Alma 56% with a loss
https://twitter.com/LogHanRatings

He seems pretty confident in two MIAA making the playoffs.