University Athletic Association

[DagarmanSpartan]

Pat,

Trust me.  Case has had a HUGE increase in enrollment over the last three years.

I don't know where you got your stats from, but cwru70's #s are correct, and yours are just FLAT OUT WRONG!!!!!!



Now then.  To give you an idea of just how much athletics at Case used to be like a high school, consider this.  Many sports teams at Case back in my time picked their teams by open tryouts.  That included men's soccer and tennis.  How do I know?  Because some of my fraternity brothers tried out for those teams.  In some cases, they made the cut, in others, not.

But in NO case were they "recruited" to play those sports.  They were regularly admitted students that simply tried out and either made the team or didn't.

JUST LIKE A HIGH SCHOOL!!!!

The only difference is that NOW, there are a lot more undergrads, and as a result, more people available to invite to come out for the team/try out for the team.  With a greater available talent pool, you have a greater probability of finding good athletes.

THAT is the main reason our athletic teams have had unprecedented success in the last three years; together with our new athletic facilities.

I'm sorry.  But the numbers you posted are absolutely BOGUS.

Mine and cwru70s are correct.

Don't you think that he and I might..........just might........know a little bit more about our own alma mater..........than YOU?

[Pat Coleman]

Pat,

Trust me.  Case has had a HUGE increase in enrollment over the last three years.

I don't know where you got your stats from, but cwru70's #s are correct, and yours are just FLAT OUT WRONG!!!!!!

As I said, they came from the United States Department of Education. Case provides them to the government on an annual basis because they are required to.

I don't think you know more about Division III football than I do. Tennis and soccer may work differently back in the day, but this is not the way college FOOTBALL works.

If you want to talk soccer, go talk soccer on our soccer boards. Don't confuse the issue on football. Your 51 incoming freshmen for football were undoubtedly recruited. Otherwise, how did they show up for practice?

The number of TRUE walk-ons, culled from the student body at large, is very small in Division III.

[ADL70]

On another note, Pat the Allegheny @ CMU game is at 7 not noon per CMU's site.

[#1Crusader]

Hey, MajorSpartan, are you really trying to compare your frat boys in tennis and soccer to a football program? Spare us the nonsense. Maybe those coaches ran their programs like they were high school coaches but I think your soccer program is pretty good now. I don't have any idea when you went to school but perhaps the recruiting has changed rather than the enrollment.

Seriously. When I went to school there weren't signs hung up in the dorm for open tryouts. At most there might be one or two guys on our football team who walked in at Orientation to play football, and those guys were so hopelessly behind when the got to practice that they never amounted to anything.

[Pat Coleman]

On another note, Pat the Allegheny @ CMU game is at 7 not noon per CMU's site.

Thanks. Unfortunately, schools often don't report game time changes to us. I can't go back every week and recheck 100 games to make sure they are still at the time the schools said they were at. 

[DagarmanSpartan]

PatColeman,

I wasn't comparing college tennis and soccer to college football.  I was merely pointing out that the athletic atmosphere at Case, contrary to what you might want to believe, is very much like a high school.  Open tryouts in sports are one example of that. 

Trust me. 

The football coaches at Case, back in my time, contacted every accepted student (including me) that indicated that they played high school football on their college application, and asked them if they wanted to come out for the team.

If the answer was "yes," then guess what?

They get to come out, and they get to report to school TWO WEEKS EARLY, to use your little figure of speech. 

The Case football players that got to report to school two weeks early don't get there via some high-powered football recruiting, as a general rule.  In most cases, they get to report two weeks early because the coach contacted them in the late Spring after admittance and asked them if they wanted to try and play football.

They may be put on the JV team, and they may never get to play, but they can still come out.  There was little in the way of organized football recruiting back in those days.  I somehow doubt that that has changed.

The reason we've had more athletic success (across the spectrum) in the last three years than ever before is because our freshmen classes the last three years have been unusually large, which, in general, gives the coaches a larger pool of former high school athletes to contact, (or to have try out, as applicable), and that in turn improves the coaches' chances of finding more and better players.

It's that simple.

So tell me.  Since you know more about Division III football than I do (something I'll concede), but apparently know much less about Case than I do (I won't concede anything there), how do YOU suppose that Case has had this multi-sport athletic renaissance in the last three years?  Have we suddenly had a radical change in philosophy and started an unprecedented major athletic recruiting program?

Do explain.

And you can forget that 3,200 number.  I don't care what the Department of Education is telling you.  That's about what Case had when I graduated, but according to the university's own website, their current undergraduate enrollment was up over 4,300 in 2006, and that was up from only 3,800 in 2003.  It may be even higher this year.

See below.

http://www.case.edu/president/cir/fafpdfs/enrollmentcomparison.pdf

You do the math.

If you have some link that says otherwise, fine.

But until you show me something, I'd say that we can take these numbers to the bank, and dismiss your claim.

Just because you know more about Division III athletics/football as a whole doesn't mean that you know more about Case or its own particular athletic atmosphere than I do, because you don't.

But you can believe whatever you wish.

[Pat Coleman]

Have you had a change? Many schools experience a renaissance around new facilities -- more so than around enrollment increases.

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetail.asp

This is a dynamically generated form, so you'll have to do the search for Case yourself.  But it's in there.

General information      Unit ID: 201645
Case Western Reserve University    Number of Full-time Undergraduates: 3,256
10900 Euclid Ave    Men: 1,951
Cleveland    Women: 1,305

Athletic Department information
David Diles
Veale Center
10900 Euclid Avenue
CLEVELAND    Reporting Year: 7/1/2005-6/30/2006
Reporting Official: Edward M. Hundert
Title: President
Phone: 216-368-4450
Sanctioning Body: NCAA Division III (with football)

Athletics Participation
   Number of Participants as of the day of the first scheduled contest
Varsity Team   Men's Teams   Women's Teams
Baseball   23    
Basketball   12    13
Football   70    
Soccer   29    20
Softball       16
Swimming and Diving   27    25
Tennis   11    11
Track and Field, Indoor   57    28
Track and Field, Outdoor   39    22
Track and Field, X-Country   22    20
Volleyball       13
Wrestling   13    
Total Participants   303    168
Unduplicated Count of Participants   245    137

Operating Expenses I
   Men's Teams   Women's Teams   
Varsity Teams   Participants   Operating Expenses per Participant   By Team   Participants   Operating Expenses per Participant   By Team   Total Operating Expenses
Baseball   23    $2,675    $61,530                $61,530
Basketball   12    $5,446    $65,346    13    $3,973    $51,652    $116,998
Football   70    $1,065    $74,540                $74,540
Soccer   29    $1,527    $44,287    20    $1,538    $30,765    $75,052
Softball               16    $3,072    $49,155    $49,155
Swimming and Diving   27    $1,475    $39,817    25    $1,475    $36,867    $76,684
Tennis   11    $1,527    $16,794    11    $1,404    $15,442    $32,236
Track and Field, Indoor   57    $302    $17,240    28    $745    $20,867    $38,107
Track and Field, Outdoor   39    $302    $11,796    22    $745    $16,396    $28,192
Track and Field,X-Country   22    $520    $11,436    20    $520    $10,396    $21,832
Volleyball               13    $2,933    $38,128    $38,128
Wrestling   13    $2,371    $30,826                $30,826
Total Operating Expenses   303        $373,612    168        $269,668    $643,280

Participants and Operating Expenses  | Coaching Staff  | Revenues and Expenses  | Coaches' Salaries

[Pat Coleman]

Your cited source doesn't say one thing about those being full-time students.

I do wish you'd read my posts fully before complaining about them.

So is my apples to apples comparison, which is actual full-timers reported to the U.S. Department of Education.

Since part-time students are not eligible to participate in athletics, it's silly to base your argument on numbers that don't explicitly exclude them.

[Superfoot Wallace]

Somewhat off track, but as a graduate student don't six credits qualify as full time?

signed,
SF Dons

[Pat Coleman]

Perhaps, but the number of grad students participating in athletics is not an overly large number. Neither is the number of students on the Matt Leinart Plan, taking a couple of classes in their final semester to graduate. (Mostly because those students tend to be in their fifth year.)

[DagarmanSpartan]

Pat,

You may notice that I mentioned our new facilities as ONE factor.

But it's hardly the biggest one.  I doubt that a new stadium alone is going to make our cross-country and men's soccer (our two most highly rated programs) better, and in any event, with a capacity of only 2,400, it's smaller than most Division III venues.

It may have made a difference in football, but given that the stadiums at most top Division III programs are larger, it's unlikely to have made that much of a difference.

Our increase in enrollment is probably the biggest factor.

And consider this.

Even if that government website is correct, how do you know that that doesn't represent an INCREASE over the previous three years?

Could that still represent a significant increase?  (Hint: YES!!!!!)

Could that still be a major explanation for our current athletic renaissance?  (Hint: YES!!!)

Do you have ANYTHING that says that our enrollment has grown significantly over the last three years?  (Hint: NO!!!!)

Good.

I'm very sorry that you made this FULL-TIME thing an issue, because I'll have to prove you wrong............AGAIN!!!!

TAKE THIS!!!!!

http://www.case.edu/president/cir/fafpdfs/degseekingenrllbyclass.pdf

Notice the increase in FULL-TIME, ATHLETICALLY ELIGIBLE STUDENTS over the last THREE YEARS!!!!!

2004-2005: 3,243
2005-2006: 3,674
2006-2007: 3,849

So you see, your stats are still BOGUS.

Click on my link and then read 'em and weep!

We have about 600 more FULL-TIME, ATHLETICALLY ELIGIBLE undergrads than we had only a few years ago.

That translates into more potential athletes.  THAT is the main reason for our sudden athletic renaissance over the last few years.

Based on those numbers I stand by my assertion.

Sorry if the government is telling you something different. 

[Pat Coleman]

Dude, I don't know why you have to shout. All I'm telling you is what Case is reporting to the government.

Seeing as this report is a requirement for schools whose students accept federally given financial aid, I like to use it. I'm sorry it doesn't meet your Case bias.

I said it was an increase. Again, please please read my posts before you complain about them.

[MCDT07]

Major....Please, this is such a bad argument.  There is no way the CURRENT improvement in athletics is due to the increased number of, as you said, NERDS at your school.  It has to be the new facilities.  Your going to get, on recruiting trips, more people to come to play for you if you show them a brand new sports facility coupled with a school of strong academic tradition.  There is no way your players are taken from the student body.  You may get an invitation to come and try out TWO WEEKS EARLY if you played in hs and were already accepted, but there is no way the team consists of just walk ons.  If that were the case in football, you would go 1-9 every year, because of the nerdiness of your school.  See my last post to see how recruiting works in D3, in particular, at UAA schools.

[ADL70]

Maj

For this discussion (and let's keep it discussion w/out shouting) the raw numbers aren't as important as the percentage increase in the same measure.

Could CWRU be inflating some numbers (or using the most favorable version) for pub?  Possibly.

Could lack of retention from year one to year two explain why the total number hasn't increased in proportion to the reported freshman enrollment figures?

I have no knowledge if players are contacted prior to applying or submitting a recruit form, but I doubt quality players just show up without being sold on the school and program by the coach(es).  I also suspect that there has been a change in philosophy re athletics, if only evidenced by improved facilities.  It would be interesting to see if the proportion of athletes to total enrollment has changed.  Using football alone, the number of players has increased in greater proportion to enrollment.

As I said though, I would cite the spike in applications and freshman enrollment to show that there is a substantial increase in interest in CWRU overall.  But I have read of an overall increase in applications at so-called second tier institutions as a result of happenings in the Ivies.  So one might inquire if other institutions similar to CWRU have experienced similar increases.

My suspicions is that the housing facilities at 115 are at least as important as the athletic facilities for any increase.

Bottom line, lets enloy it and first get that Wooster monkey off our backs!!

[NCC_alum62]

http://www.case.edu/athletics/varsity/fall/football/

Football Homepage for CWRU

http://www.case.edu/athletics/varsity/athleteform.htm

Athletic Recruit questionarie link for CWRU athletics.