University Athletic Association

[ADL70]

I wasn't disagreeing XTP.  In fact, I brought up Oberlin's performance to agree that "half a dozen quality players" can be "enough."  But as I hoped for CWRU, a dozen or so would be necessary to reach the second tier of DIII.  And by competitive, I didn't mean they were contending for the conference championship.  And yes, they are an anomaly.

[ExTartanPlayer]

I wasn't disagreeing XTP.  In fact, I brought up Oberlin's performance to agree that "half a dozen quality players" can be "enough."  But as I hoped for CWRU, a dozen or so would be necessary to reach the second tier of DIII.  And by competitive, I didn't mean they were contending for the conference championship.  And yes, they are an anomaly.

I know that we're essentially in agreement, just wanted to write some stuff down to flesh it all out.  You're certainly right that more than half a dozen quality recruits per class are required to climb into that "second tier" of Division III, hovering on the fringes of the Top 25.  You might crack it for a year or two with two strong recruiting classes back-to-back, but staying there requires strong recruiting classes year-in and year-out (or at least three of every four years).

[sigma one]

I totally agree with EXTARTAN about recruiting classes and success, if success is measured in wins and losses.  I have seen Oberlin every year recently--that is for a decade or more.  They have always struggled with roster numbers, and they have always had a few players practically anyone would want on his roster.  The point about Mandel and Witjes is well made.  I'd add Clay Eaton to that duo.  He was a terrific defensive end.  And in 2012 Oberlin was a senior-dominated team; lots of experience.  They lose a  big number of outstanding contributors.  The final factor in their ability to be competitive more often than not is the qulaity of the coaching they receive.  I think their head coach is top notch and does more with less over time than Oberlin has a right to expect.
      I saw Oberlin defeat Wabash last fall; it was no fluke.  Wabash made a few mistakes, but it was more a matter of Oberlin's intensity, excellent play calling, and senior talent taking advantage of the situation that was presented.  With the loss of so many seniors it will be interesting to watch how they do this fall.  A quick look at the possible returning roster should raise doubts, yet they always seem to find a way to win a few games or stay close.  On the other hand, several times a year recently the lack of depth did show up.  You take in a recruited group of 20 to 25, and that group begins to shrink fast:  several find out they cannot compete; several find other interests that trump football; several are injured.  That group of 20-25 (sometimes less with Oberlin and Kenyon) can become a contributing group of one-third of that.  You can't miss on players, and DIII always misses on players or gets players who think they are better than they turn out to be.  So, Oberlin in 2012 was led by a special group of seniors, maybe a group not likely to be matched soon.  (Oberlin players and coaches will disagree, understandably.)  All that said, even 4-6 last year must be looked at as a "success," especially with the win at Wabash--and that team (good point about Mandel's injury probaly keeping the Yoemen from a better record) was below .500.
     I've always wondered, and I think I know the answer, whether Oberlin tolerates football rather than embracing it, and so a lot of players, even those with the high academic ability Oberlin insists upon, look elsewhere.  There has always been a  question in my mind about how successful a high-quality--I mean really high-quality--college can consistently be in football--I'm talking national (not some regional best colleges list) ranking here among liberal arts and other DIII institutions.  I wish we could know how the best of NESCAC would fare v. the top 25 DIII final poll teams.  Any discussion about that has to be, um, academic. 
     
     
     

[wally_wabash]

The final factor in their ability to be competitive more often than not is the qulaity of the coaching they receive.  I think their head coach is top notch and does more with less over time than Oberlin has a right to expect.   

This point really can not be understated.  I'm not sure there are a dozen guys in D-III that can get what Jeff Ramsey gets out of his 40-ish man roster each and every year.  Honestly.  Last year Oberlin had 46 student-athletes on the roster.  That's what they started with; that's not at all what they had when they laid out Wabash in C'ville.

[formerd3db]

sigma one:
This is somewhat tangential to your conversation, however, since you brought up the subject, I thought I would jump in to add some comments.  Also, as a disclaimer here, I am not intending this as a "dis" against those I am talking about, but rather just simply sharing my own personal opinion and views.

Anyway, you mentioned wishing that we could know how the NESCAC (or at least the best teams of that league) would fare against the top tier DIII teams (as well as keeping the discussion in an "academic" tone, so to speak ).  Unfortunately, other than an occasional non-conference game (if those are ever scheduled), we probably will never know.  I have never understood, nor ever will, why they refuse to allow their football teams to participate in the post-season playoffs, nor for that matter, the Ivy Group schools either.  Of course, it is associated with the "academics" aspect they and their supporters will tell you as they have, yet, again, it makes no sense to me and, IMO, there is really no legit reason why they shouldn't be participating in the post-season.  Yet, their current policy is what they desire to do and that is fine, it is their choice and I accept that.

Yet, one can also legitimately say that, at least in the case of the Ivy Group, such policy is hypocritical because they allow all their other sports to participate in the NCAA Championships, so why not football.  The chance of prolonged extra weeks for that is minimal, but even if one of their teams went on to the final, it certainly wouldn't be any much longer than what Yale did this year in winning the national championship in hockey- which was great (and, of course, not to forget the occasional great showings that Ivy schools have done in the March Madness over the years, more recently Harvard and Princeton several years ago which was great (wasn't that latter one were they did the "slow-down" tactics that eventually led to the 30 second clock?).  Wouldn't it be great to see Harvard or Yale or Penn, etc., in the FCS playoff mix and one of the NESCAC teams in the DIII play-offs? But again, we won't most likely ever see that - such has all the chances as a "snowball in h___!"

Anyway, good overall discussion you guys have been having.
   

[SpartanMom_2016]

I know that we're essentially in agreement, just wanted to write some stuff down to flesh it all out.  You're certainly right that more than half a dozen quality recruits per class are required to climb into that "second tier" of Division III, hovering on the fringes of the Top 25.  You might crack it for a year or two with two strong recruiting classes back-to-back, but staying there requires strong recruiting classes year-in and year-out (or at least three of every four years).

Isn't the real difficulty in college that the coaches have to recruit HS players for their 2013 squad when they don't really know how their 2012 recruits will ultimately perform?

[ADL70]

I know that we're essentially in agreement, just wanted to write some stuff down to flesh it all out.  You're certainly right that more than half a dozen quality recruits per class are required to climb into that "second tier" of Division III, hovering on the fringes of the Top 25.  You might crack it for a year or two with two strong recruiting classes back-to-back, but staying there requires strong recruiting classes year-in and year-out (or at least three of every four years).

Isn't the real difficulty in college that the coaches have to recruit HS players for their 2013 squad when they don't really know how their 2012 recruits will ultimately perform?

Or even know which players from 2012 will return in 2013.  But unlike the scholarship divisions, D3 coaches don't have to deal with scholarship limits.  Can you ever have enough quality players?

Can someone with experience in DIII recruiting say when coaches start to recruit for the following class?  How much are they looking at 2014 right now?  I know seniors-to-be are sending highlights to coaches.

[mustang]

sigma one:
This is somewhat tangential to your conversation, however, since you brought up the subject, I thought I would jump in to add some comments.  Also, as a disclaimer here, I am not intending this as a "dis" against those I am talking about, but rather just simply sharing my own personal opinion and views.

Anyway, you mentioned wishing that we could know how the NESCAC (or at least the best teams of that league) would fare against the top tier DIII teams (as well as keeping the discussion in an "academic" tone, so to speak ).  Unfortunately, other than an occasional non-conference game (if those are ever scheduled), we probably will never know.  I have never understood, nor ever will, why they refuse to allow their football teams to participate in the post-season playoffs, nor for that matter, the Ivy Group schools either.  Of course, it is associated with the "academics" aspect they and their supporters will tell you as they have, yet, again, it makes no sense to me and, IMO, there is really no legit reason why they shouldn't be participating in the post-season.  Yet, their current policy is what they desire to do and that is fine, it is their choice and I accept that.

Yet, one can also legitimately say that, at least in the case of the Ivy Group, such policy is hypocritical because they allow all their other sports to participate in the NCAA Championships, so why not football.  The chance of prolonged extra weeks for that is minimal, but even if one of their teams went on to the final, it certainly wouldn't be any much longer than what Yale did this year in winning the national championship in hockey- which was great (and, of course, not to forget the occasional great showings that Ivy schools have done in the March Madness over the years, more recently Harvard and Princeton several years ago which was great (wasn't that latter one were they did the "slow-down" tactics that eventually led to the 30 second clock?).  Wouldn't it be great to see Harvard or Yale or Penn, etc., in the FCS playoff mix and one of the NESCAC teams in the DIII play-offs? But again, we won't most likely ever see that - such has all the chances as a "snowball in h___!"

Anyway, good overall discussion you guys have been having.

db,

I have a son that plays in the Ivy league and I can tell you that every coach, player and parent is in favor of post season participation for football, however the school presidents have to this point have been against it. They have been insisting that a 10 game schedule is all that will be allowed as a longer season interferes with academics and semester finals. This hard headed stance does much to hurt the leage. When my son's team plays their first game of the year, their opponent has typically played 2 or 3 games. Makes it tough to be competitive. I hope this changes before he's done but it would appear doubtful at this point.

[mustang]

I know that we're essentially in agreement, just wanted to write some stuff down to flesh it all out.  You're certainly right that more than half a dozen quality recruits per class are required to climb into that "second tier" of Division III, hovering on the fringes of the Top 25.  You might crack it for a year or two with two strong recruiting classes back-to-back, but staying there requires strong recruiting classes year-in and year-out (or at least three of every four years).

Isn't the real difficulty in college that the coaches have to recruit HS players for their 2013 squad when they don't really know how their 2012 recruits will ultimately perform?

Or even know which players from 2012 will return in 2013.  But unlike the scholarship divisions, D3 coaches don't have to deal with scholarship limits.  Can you ever have enough quality players?

Can someone with experience in DIII recruiting say when coaches start to recruit for the following class?  How much are they looking at 2014 right now?  I know seniors-to-be are sending highlights to coaches.

ADL,

My older boy started hearing from DIII coaches during his senior season, I recall Hope, Wabash, Valparaiso and 1 or 2 others. Interest in him would usually wane when he said the words "biomedical engineering" to a recruiting coach. Rose Hulman came into play after the season and Case after that.

At the end of his junior year my younger son was being recruited by Case, Chicago, Butler, Carnegie Mellon, Valparaiso and 3 of the Ivy's. He was much more proactive in his recruiting then my older boy.

I included D1AA non scholarship schools because in many cases they compete with DIII schools for the same players.

[DagarmanSpartan]

In my mind, we're lucky to be playing Oberlin in Game 2 next year.

We'll be rebuilding on defense, and they say your biggest improvement is between Games 1 and 2. 

Oberlin, by contrast, will be playing their opener against us.  That should give us an edge, and we'll need it!

I sure hope that we beat Oberlin, that way, we can end our long-term series with Oberlin on both a winning note, and with a 25+ game winning streak (that's got to be one of the longest in DIII).

[formerd3db]

sigma one:
This is somewhat tangential to your conversation, however, since you brought up the subject, I thought I would jump in to add some comments.  Also, as a disclaimer here, I am not intending this as a "dis" against those I am talking about, but rather just simply sharing my own personal opinion and views.

Anyway, you mentioned wishing that we could know how the NESCAC (or at least the best teams of that league) would fare against the top tier DIII teams (as well as keeping the discussion in an "academic" tone, so to speak ).  Unfortunately, other than an occasional non-conference game (if those are ever scheduled), we probably will never know.  I have never understood, nor ever will, why they refuse to allow their football teams to participate in the post-season playoffs, nor for that matter, the Ivy Group schools either.  Of course, it is associated with the "academics" aspect they and their supporters will tell you as they have, yet, again, it makes no sense to me and, IMO, there is really no legit reason why they shouldn't be participating in the post-season.  Yet, their current policy is what they desire to do and that is fine, it is their choice and I accept that.

Yet, one can also legitimately say that, at least in the case of the Ivy Group, such policy is hypocritical because they allow all their other sports to participate in the NCAA Championships, so why not football.  The chance of prolonged extra weeks for that is minimal, but even if one of their teams went on to the final, it certainly wouldn't be any much longer than what Yale did this year in winning the national championship in hockey- which was great (and, of course, not to forget the occasional great showings that Ivy schools have done in the March Madness over the years, more recently Harvard and Princeton several years ago which was great (wasn't that latter one were they did the "slow-down" tactics that eventually led to the 30 second clock?).  Wouldn't it be great to see Harvard or Yale or Penn, etc., in the FCS playoff mix and one of the NESCAC teams in the DIII play-offs? But again, we won't most likely ever see that - such has all the chances as a "snowball in h___!"

Anyway, good overall discussion you guys have been having.

db,

I have a son that plays in the Ivy league and I can tell you that every coach, player and parent is in favor of post season participation for football, however the school presidents have to this point have been against it. They have been insisting that a 10 game schedule is all that will be allowed as a longer season interferes with academics and semester finals. This hard headed stance does much to hurt the leage. When my son's team plays their first game of the year, their opponent has typically played 2 or 3 games. Makes it tough to be competitive. I hope this changes before he's done but it would appear doubtful at this point.

mustang:

Thank you for the follow-up info.  I agree with you 110%+.  The argument that the Ivy school presidents put forth is simply ludicrous and hypocritical (and I saying that nicely ) because they allow it (post season play) for basketball, hockey and the other sports.  That argument also doesn't fly even from the simple fact that the basketball season is the longest.

I also believe as you do that it hurts the Ivy group overall in regards to their division peers.  As I'm sure you already know, even the Pioneer League is now participating in the post-season FCS playoffs with an automatic bid beginning this season.  The Ivy group obviously has a great and storied tradition, are good schools (although very expensive, among other things, the latter of which I won't bring up here as it is "political" and prohibited on this website  ), however, they are somewhat behind the times in regards to football and that is disappointing.  I hope that will change someday, although as you say, it is unlikely to do so anytime soon -the presidents have a very strange mind-set (historically, they always have for that league/group).  Anyway, all best wishes to your son for his remaining football career there.

P.S.  You and many others probably know this, however, I bet (if I were a betting man ) that many people do not know that the Ivy schools' official name for the league is not the "Ivy League" as is traditionally said/written.  Rather the official name is "The Ivy Group" and, as I recall from one of the published history books on the league, that term wasn't officially sanctioned until the 1950's.  (Someone correct me if I am wrong on that).

[NCF]

I know that we're essentially in agreement, just wanted to write some stuff down to flesh it all out.  You're certainly right that more than half a dozen quality recruits per class are required to climb into that "second tier" of Division III, hovering on the fringes of the Top 25.  You might crack it for a year or two with two strong recruiting classes back-to-back, but staying there requires strong recruiting classes year-in and year-out (or at least three of every four years).

Isn't the real difficulty in college that the coaches have to recruit HS players for their 2013 squad when they don't really know how their 2012 recruits will ultimately perform?

Or even know which players from 2012 will return in 2013.  But unlike the scholarship divisions, D3 coaches don't have to deal with scholarship limits.  Can you ever have enough quality players?

Can someone with experience in DIII recruiting say when coaches start to recruit for the following class?  How much are they looking at 2014 right now?  I know seniors-to-be are sending highlights to coaches.

ADL,

My older boy started hearing from DIII coaches during his senior season, I recall Hope, Wabash, Valparaiso and 1 or 2 others. Interest in him would usually wane when he said the words "biomedical engineering" to a recruiting coach. Rose Hulman came into play after the season and Case after that.

At the end of his junior year my younger son was being recruited by Case, Chicago, Butler, Carnegie Mellon, Valparaiso and 3 of the Ivy's. He was much more proactive in his recruiting then my older boy.

I included D1AA non scholarship schools because in many cases they compete with DIII schools for the same players.

As in the case of your younger son, my son also began hearing from coaches after his junior year. And you are right, coaches don't know who will return, and in following my son's school (North Central) during the past four years, it is amazing how many players either quit, don't return to school for academic reasons, have season (or career) ending injuries, or just don't develop into contributing (either starters, back-ups or special teams) players. I think D3 coaches must recruit for  every position, no matter how deep they might be in any given year, because as on of the North Central coaches put it"recruiting is a crap shoot, you don't know how it will turn out four years down the road. 
As for your second question-I don't think you can have too many quality players, but it can be discouraging to new or younger players to see four(or more) guys ahead of him at his position. That may be one factor in players transferring or quitting. This is just my opinion based on things that I have seen happen at my son's school during his career.

[Pat Coleman]

P.S.  You and many others probably know this, however, I bet (if I were a betting man ) that many people do not know that the Ivy schools' official name for the league is not the "Ivy League" as is traditionally said/written.  Rather the official name is "The Ivy Group" and, as I recall from one of the published history books on the league, that term wasn't officially sanctioned until the 1950's.  (Someone correct me if I am wrong on that).

The sports group is called the Ivy League.

http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/sports/fball/index

Ivy Group, as far as I can tell, is how people refer to the group of schools as institutions, but the conference's website is pretty clear on how to refer to them athletically.

[sigma one]

D3db and others:  the whole NESCAC "we don't participate in the football championship playoffs because. . ." has puzzled me for years, even through that group's attempts at explanation.  On the one hand, I want to believe that they would probably do very well against East competition, and perhaps occasionally beyond.  They compete against many of the eastern schools in other sports and usually do more than hold their own.  They produce national champions in basketball.  They do well is sports where there are measureables--like in track where you either run fast, jump high, and throw far or you don't.   On the other hand, because football is a numbers sport I'm not certain how well they would do against colleges that can bring in large recruiting classes.  I am certain that with the way they allow coaches a certain number of slots to bring in (yes, qualified thoough perhaps with a slightly lower academic profile in some cases) student-athletes they can probably adjust and be competitive.  They would be very unlikely to embarrass themselves.
     I've never bought the argument about missing class, interfering with final exams, etc.  That has always seemed to me an academic smoke screen for an outdated, deeply felt belief that football is a knucklehead sport and that more exposure for their football team might cause some people to question their academic excellence. But, as many have said, NESCAC can do what it wants. 
     Would it be more fun, more interesting if NESCAC teams appeared in the national playoffs?  Sure, it would because all of us would be watching to see how they do.  It would at least help answer a question I posed earlier about whether small institutions with an elite academic reputation could sustain excellence in football.
    Maybe some of you who regularly see NESCAC teams play can offer some opinion about what you see and those teams' caliber v. other DIII  teams you have seen (and not just in some of the weaker conferences).  How do you think they would measure up v., say, St John Fisher, Hobart, Rowan, Widener, Cortland St, Lycoming, and others (including teams firmly occupying the middle of the Empire 8, Liberty League, Middle Atlantic, New Jersey,  and even the UAA.  I suspect the answer will be "quite well," but try to be objective..  Thanks.
     
     

[formerd3db]

P.S.  You and many others probably know this, however, I bet (if I were a betting man ) that many people do not know that the Ivy schools' official name for the league is not the "Ivy League" as is traditionally said/written.  Rather the official name is "The Ivy Group" and, as I recall from one of the published history books on the league, that term wasn't officially sanctioned until the 1950's.  (Someone correct me if I am wrong on that).

The sports group is called the Ivy League.

http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/sports/fball/index

Ivy Group, as far as I can tell, is how people refer to the group of schools as institutions, but the conference's website is pretty clear on how to refer to them athletically.

Ah, yes, I stand corrected Pat, you are right and I should have checked my sources before posting my statement.  Thanks for correcting me as requested (can I plead old age/fading memory? ).  Although it is not incorrect that those schools were generally referred to as the Ivy Group with regard to football in the earliest of days, where I was trying to go with that was the actual name of "Ivy League" and for that matter, that it officially became a league, was not until the mid-1950's- actually 1954 to be exact.  As stated in noted author/historian John McCallum's excellent book, Ivy League Football Since 1872, Scarborough House, Briarcliff Manor, New York, Stein and Day/Publishers, 1977; in the opening chapter "Once Lightly Around the Ivy", p. 6, the author notes the following:

"...From 1869 to 1955, Ivy standings were kept haphazardly and unofficially by newspapers.  In fact, most Ivy opponents scheduled one another periodically, instead of annually, if at all.  It wasn't until 1954 that the presidents of the eight schools-Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Penn, Princeton, and Yale-responded to criticism that football had grown out of hand by getting together on what they called the "presidents' agreement" that is the Ivy League charter.  To this day, it is not so much a league as a federation by agreement.  There is no commissioner to enforce the rules.  The university presidents have instead jointly and separately accepted this responsibility"

All of which also fits in with the context of part of the general ongoing discussion.  Additionally, that is generally considered by many as when the deemphasizing of football started for the Ivy schools.  Anyway, thanks again for the correction/clarification.