University Athletic Association

[ADL70]

You want to expand your reach, but not at the expense of areas you have been strong in.

There was a Fox Chapel lineman who visited CWRU, but ended up at an Ivy.

[SpartanMom_2016]

You want to expand your reach, but not at the expense of areas you have been strong in.

There was a Fox Chapel lineman who visited CWRU, but ended up at an Ivy.

The thing is that the UAA schools are all NATIONAL universities.  I would expect that the athletic teams would reflect that national focus.  I think that the D3 schools in PA/OH would do well to expand their recruiting to areas where:

1. A high level of high school football is the norm.
2. There aren't many D3 schools in the local area.

While OH/PA meet the first, they do not meet the second.  There are a ton of D3 schools in OH/PA chasing the same pot of good players.  I think that if the UAA really wants to get better in terms of player quality the coaches would do well to spend more time in TX, FL and CA.  Those are areas where there is a very high level of HS football (possibly higher than OH).  The kids in those areas have played against a very high level of competition, have very high "football IQs", and are fantastic athletes.  However, they do not have a huge number of D3 coaches recruiting them.

I realize that it can be expensive for coaches from OH to travel but I would think that they could get a guy to one of those three big football states for recruiting.  I am not familiar with TX and CA schools but here in FL there are many players who lack size or speed for D1 football but are otherwise good players.  Unless their parents or coaches are familiar with D3 programs (my son's HS coach was from WI) many of those kids just don't play in college because they assume not big enough for D1 means no college football at all.

I don't think it makes any sense at all for the UAA coaches to chase the same group of OH/PA guys that all the other schools in the midwest are chasing when there are all those other guys out there who are not being tapped by D3 coaches.

[ExTartanPlayer]

You want to expand your reach, but not at the expense of areas you have been strong in.

There was a Fox Chapel lineman who visited CWRU, but ended up at an Ivy.

The thing is that the UAA schools are all NATIONAL universities.  I would expect that the athletic teams would reflect that national focus.  I think that the D3 schools in PA/OH would do well to expand their recruiting to areas where:

1. A high level of high school football is the norm.
2. There aren't many D3 schools in the local area.

While OH/PA meet the first, they do not meet the second.  There are a ton of D3 schools in OH/PA chasing the same pot of good players.  I think that if the UAA really wants to get better in terms of player quality the coaches would do well to spend more time in TX, FL and CA.  Those are areas where there is a very high level of HS football (possibly higher than OH).  The kids in those areas have played against a very high level of competition, have very high "football IQs", and are fantastic athletes.  However, they do not have a huge number of D3 coaches recruiting them.

I realize that it can be expensive for coaches from OH to travel but I would think that they could get a guy to one of those three big football states for recruiting.  I am not familiar with TX and CA schools but here in FL there are many players who lack size or speed for D1 football but are otherwise good players.  Unless their parents or coaches are familiar with D3 programs (my son's HS coach was from WI) many of those kids just don't play in college because they assume not big enough for D1 means no college football at all.

I don't think it makes any sense at all for the UAA coaches to chase the same group of OH/PA guys that all the other schools in the midwest are chasing when there are all those other guys out there who are not being tapped by D3 coaches.

SpartanMom, I do agree with the majority of what you say here.

You are absolutely correct that the UAA schools are national universities and we would expect the rosters to reflect that; you make a very good point about the significantly greater density of D3 schools in PA/OH than several other states; and you are definitely correct that it seems many kids/parents from states without D3 schools think either you play D1 or you don't play college football.

With that said, I don't think the UAA schools really have to spend more time recruiting TX, FL, and CA because...they're already doing that.  CMU brought in five Florida kids, three Texas kids, and one California kid (which I think is lower than usual; there were at least a couple on the team every year I was there, and we definitely had a TON of Florida kids, both starting HB's my last two years were from Florida).  CWRU brought in four California kids and a Florida kid (and I think that's unusually low for only one FL kid, given that the roster of returnees includes seven Florida kids - but then again, there are zero California kids returning to the roster).  I think they're already recruiting those states about as much as their resources allow.

In conclusion...basically, you're right

I'm just surprised that CMU has no one from the eastern half of PA and so few OH kids.  I guess that I'm just greedy.  I'd have loved to see all 43 kids from 21 different states with another 5 PA kids and 5 OH kids.  Ah well

[ADL70]

I don't see that you have to choose one or the other.

CWRU has expanded its reach in the last few years.  The aforementioned 2006 class had thirty-six and twenty were from Ohio and seven from Pa; Florida was next with three.

2013 had twenty-nine.  Nine each were from Ohio and Pa.  This year's thirty-nine have thirteen from from Ohio, only four from Pa., but four from California (a fifth tweeted a commitment, but hasn't been heard from since).  Local kids are more likely to attend on campus camps to be evaluated and recruited.

The roster features players from Florida to Alaska and from New England to Hawaii

The number of students from Ohio have declined in the past five years from about forty percent to about thirty percent, so the football team closely mirrors the student population as a whole.

I've heard others discuss the lack of awareness of DIII in Florida, and DII and DI non-scholarship programs have just started up there.  UAA quality student athletes I think would look at academics first and athletics second.  I believe that the coaching staff is made aware of applicants who played sports in high school. 

XTP has a better perspective as he was involved in recruiting at CMU and he and I were writing at the same time.

[SpartanMom_2016]

I don't think it's either/or.  I think the football teams can do both local and national recruiting. After all the universities in the UAA do national recruiting and that certainly helps the football stuff.  The rosters certainly do reflect the national reach of the UAA schools.

It's true that academics come first for UAA quality students.  However, if a student wants to play football and is undersized or otherwise unsuitable for D1 there are zero options in state (there are FCS and D2 schools but no D3s).  My son would have been a great candidate at Miami or UF but he wanted to play football so he looked for academically suitable institutions outside of FL.  Honestly, if his coach wasn't from the Midwest he probably wouldn't have known to send his film to some of the schools he targeted. 

I do think that in FL since there is such a lack of awareness of D3 schools and a lack of awareness of Midwestern universities in general there is an opportunity for coaches to recruit in FL.  I would guess that the same holds true for CA and TX but I don't really know much about those areas. 

[formerd3db]

Regarding the Florida (or for that matter out of region recruiting), all of you make good points.  Indeed, most of the general public in Florida are unaware of DIII football and as you mentioned, other than the few previous FCS scholarship programs, there are now additional FCS non-scholarship programs there.  Yet, those institutions, I think most everyone agrees, do not compare with the academic level of the UAA (or perhaps even to many other DIII schools, no disrespect intended towards those FCS schools).

It also depends on any DIII school's willingness and desire to allow their coaching staffs to take the time (and resources) to actually personally recruit in Florida, which is no small endeavor for either.  Others in the past have commented about a varied group of DIII schools which have actually made concentrated efforts in recent years to attract student-athletes for football from Florida.  For example, Defiance College has done that for the last decade and this past season had 13 football players from Florida listed on its roster-a sizeable number.  Olivet College (MI) had made a strong effort about 8-10 years ago also recruiting in Florida and had several players regularly from the Miami area on its roster.  However, that has declined extensively (for which I do not know the reasons) and this past fall's roster there listed only 1 player from Florida.

Certainly, it is a big adjustment for players from Florida to come to the Midwest or northern DIII schools in many aspects, although, in reality we all know that is the same for player from the southern areas who are recruited and end up playing DI schools in these areas as well.  Yet, at the same time, that is a "different ballgame" and without question, the academic aspects are the major role in those who are considering DIII.  I also agree with you all that UAA type schools have that extra positive advantage regarding their nationally known programs including research, although while some DIII schools like Hope rank extremely high in that regard as well, the resources for out-of-region recruiting for most DIII schools are limited- this is leaving out the alumni connection aspect which is an important source as well; a good example of the latter many would include is Wheaton College also. 

It is always intriguing to see the variety among the various DIII rosters, although also for many DIII schools, the roster is comprised of mainly in-region, in-state players for understandable reasons. Thanks all of you for another interesting and important discussion.

[jknezek]

Probably don't want to hear this but the UAA schools aren't all that well known nationally. If you asked around in the South or Southwest even among honor students you'll get mostly blank stares. CMU less than CWRU or Wash U thanks to their robotics work, but still the brands aren't very strong. Definitely better than most northern D3 schools, but coaches are still going to have some massive selling to do. It is definitely odd for this NJ kid that so many really great schools that I or others I grew up aspired to attend are all but unheard of in favor of sitting in 1000 person lecture halls at the local football factory

[Gregory Sager]

Probably don't want to hear this but the UAA schools aren't all that well known nationally. If you asked around in the South or Southwest even among honor students you'll get mostly blank stares. CMU less than CWRU or Wash U thanks to their robotics work, but still the brands aren't very strong. Definitely better than most northern D3 schools, but coaches are still going to have some massive selling to do. It is definitely odd for this NJ kid that so many really great schools that I or others I grew up aspired to attend are all but unheard of in favor of sitting in 1000 person lecture halls at the local football factory

I have a hard time believing that a school that has won more Nobel Prizes than any other university on the planet and is the place where the atom was first split (underneath the stands of the football stadium, no less) doesn't qualify for the category of "well-known nationally".

The University of Chicago had over 30,000 applicants last year, vying for about 1,400 openings in the freshman class. And the U of C draws from all across the country, and abroad as well.

[jknezek]

Probably don't want to hear this but the UAA schools aren't all that well known nationally. If you asked around in the South or Southwest even among honor students you'll get mostly blank stares. CMU less than CWRU or Wash U thanks to their robotics work, but still the brands aren't very strong. Definitely better than most northern D3 schools, but coaches are still going to have some massive selling to do. It is definitely odd for this NJ kid that so many really great schools that I or others I grew up aspired to attend are all but unheard of in favor of sitting in 1000 person lecture halls at the local football factory

I have a hard time believing that a school that has won more Nobel Prizes than any other university on the planet and is the place where the atom was first split (underneath the stands of the football stadium, no less) doesn't qualify for the category of "well-known nationally".

The University of Chicago had over 30,000 applicants last year, vying for about 1,400 openings in the freshman class. And the U of C draws from all across the country, and abroad as well.

I agree. But come on down and ask around in the South. Not saying it is completely  unknown, just not real well known. If you asked your facts above as trivia questions of honors students in the South you won't get many right answers

[Gregory Sager]

I would've been much more eager to come on down and ask people in the South about the U of C two months ago than I am now, seeing as how the weather finally got nice up here.

But your reply immediately leads one to ask: Just how many schools north of the Mason-Dixon Line are really well-known in the South?

[jknezek]

Not many outside D1 and the Ivies, and the UAA schools more than most, but the awareness of even those schools isn't great, which was my original point. A CWRU coach isn't going to walk into Mountain Brook H.S. outside Birmingham and just have the school known to very many students.

[SpartanMom_2016]

I would've been much more eager to come on down and ask people in the South about the U of C two months ago than I am now, seeing as how the weather finally got nice up here.

But your reply immediately leads one to ask: Just how many schools north of the Mason-Dixon Line are really well-known in the South?

I think it depends on where you are in the south.  Here in the southern part of FL there are many transplants from the northeast.  Parents of good students tend to have gone to school in the northeast and are familiar with many of the schools in the region, even the small ones.  I am not sure how it is in other parts of the south. 

I have a senior (today was his last day) and his friends are going all over the county but will be heavily concentrated in FL and the NE.  There is one girl going to CWRU.

[ADL70]

Do you know that Emory in Atlanta is in the UAA and that Atlanta is in the South?

If the guidance counsellors don't know about the UAA schools, they are doing a pitiful job.  While they may not be known in the parochial South, I have no doubt that they are in the metropolitan areas.  More students in China have probably heard of them than students in Hooterville have.

https://www.case.edu/president/cir/pdfiles/enrolltrendsugrdbystatecountry.pdf

And CWRU isn't as well known as NYU, Chicago, or WashingtonU.

[ExTartanPlayer]

I would've been much more eager to come on down and ask people in the South about the U of C two months ago than I am now, seeing as how the weather finally got nice up here.

But your reply immediately leads one to ask: Just how many schools north of the Mason-Dixon Line are really well-known in the South?

I think it depends on where you are in the south.  Here in the southern part of FL there are many transplants from the northeast.  Parents of good students tend to have gone to school in the northeast and are familiar with many of the schools in the region, even the small ones.  I am not sure how it is in other parts of the south. 

This is going to sound elitist and snobbish, but I think you're right - it depends where you are and who you're talking to.

Re: jknezek's belief that the UAA schools aren't that well-known in the South; I'd redirect that to say that the UAA schools aren't that well known among people unfamiliar with the upper echelon of academia (not just in the South, but anywhere).  If I went to the ghetto of Philadelphia or Harrisburg, or into rural/remote parts of Northern PA, plenty of people there haven't heard of Carnegie Mellon either.  On the streets of Pittsburgh, yes, most people hear that I went to CMU and know that it's a "smart school" - but if I asked a few random folks from small towns in rural PA, OH, or WV?  They might not be able to tell me what city Carnegie Mellon is in.

As ADL70 said in his last poist, I suspect that in metropolitan areas and/or bigger high schools with a larger proportion of high-achieving students, the UAA schools and their academically "elite" brethren are at least "heard of" if not thoroughly known.  I do agree with jknezek's point that at East Bumfart HS in the rural South, they're likely unheard of, but that's also true at East Bumfart HS in rural Pennsylvania and Ohio.

Edited to add: my girlfriend has been teaching at East Carolina University this semester, and as a result I've been to several cities in NC, which provides a bit of a litmus test here.  ECU is a big state school, but it's in a smallish town (Greenville, NC) and from my very limited exposure to the state, I bet that many people in that immediate area are not familiar with the UAA-type schools except for the professors at ECU and other executives/professionals in the hospital system.  However, if I went to Raleigh or Durham (90 minutes away), I bet that a lot more people there would know of the UAA schools, just because that's a higher concentration of people with advanced degrees and/or "transplants" from other areas who have come to work or do research at Duke, UNC, or NC State.  Bigger chance that someone there either has a colleague, or coworker, or friend from a UAA school, or know someone that applied to or visited one, etc.

Here's a neat little anecdotal note on "national" vs. "regional" schools.  As I've said before - I grew up near Philadelphia, PA.  I went to Carnegie Mellon - about 250 miles away in Pittsburgh.  My brother (two years younger) then joined me in Pittsburgh at Duquesne University, which is also a fine school but somewhat more of a regional draw than a national one.  Of my five closest friends at CMU, only one was from closer to CMU than I was (and he was the defensive coordinator's son) - everyone else was from a different state.  Of my brother's five closest friends, he was from the furthest away from Duquesne; all of them were from PA, and most of his friends were from within 45 minutes' drive of campus.

I feel like I (and probably most people on this website) have "heard of" of more colleges than the average person just because i) I grew up with two college-educated parents and in a community where that was the norm, thus exposing me to the names of a lot of potential college destinations and ii) I attended a Division III school and learned the names of virtually every school that offers a Division III sport of any type, if not their academic specialty.  Most people posting on this website probably have something fairly similar to that - the exposure to a large number of schools through personal acquaintances and/or Division III sports.  The "average" resident of a small rural town probably does not have that.

[DagarmanSpartan]

Congratulations to our #9 nationally ranked men's tennis team for crushing Kalamazoo College 5-0 in the second round of the NCAA tourney.

The Spartans now advance to the Sweet 16 where they'll play.....................guess who.................CARNEGIE-MELLON!!!

GO SPARTANS!!!

Read on.

http://athletics.case.edu/sports/mten/2013-14/releases/20140510jmubuk